Friends who didn't save . . .

[Zoocat]

I don't know how to deal with my friends. I have friends who didn't save for retirement who are one bad event away from destitution. One friend in particular barely keeps afloat with her employment but constantly needs cash infusions from relatives, has a stack of credit card bills, and always says she wants to go with me on this vacation or that trip even though she can't afford it. It's all wishful thinking. Boy, she wears me out just thinking about her.

Another friend has serious health problems but just cashed out a IRA to do house improvements, lives on credit cards, has no retirement savings, just a very small pension.

When I offer advice it is typically rejected for one reason or another, so I don't offer it anymore. I try to avoid any conversation that appears to lead in the direction of finances. But that causes some stress for me, as I have to monitor myself, avoid talking about certain things, etc.

Unfortunately, these are long time friends that I would have difficulty saying goodbye to. So, I guess I am just going to have to limit my involvement with them. It's sad. Does anyone else have this problem? And how do you deal with it? I can imagine that this sort of thing would be even more difficult with family members.

 

[Moemg]

So, I guess I am just going to have to limit my involvement with them. It's sad. Does anyone else have this problem? And how do you deal with it? I can imagine that this sort of thing would be even more difficult with family members.

I do have this problem and I have dealt with it by avoiding the subject . A close friend has gone bankrupt and her retirement plan is an inheritance from her parents who are alive and well and in their eighties. She still receives an allowance from her Dad. Another friend is constantly redecorating and only has minimal saved for retirement . I enjoy these people. When we are together we discuss everything but avoid financial discussions . It works !

 

[Zoocat]

Moemg, do you ever worry about what will happen to them? I mean serious destitution? Would you help them financially? Maybe I am too much of a worrier but I am very concerned about these friends of mine. I can envision a very impoverished future for them.

 

[modhatter]

There are many people in this situation, but having some savings and spending it on remodeling is more than foolish.

My mother only has social security and she is 91 now. I have provided for her for the last almost 30 years. What she would have done without my help I do not know. My sister has no savings and lives with her son and girlfriend with only social security.

My brother and his wife have no savings and they are in their fifties, and my sister in law has never worked, so no social security for her. They were never big spenders. Actually quite frugal. My brother just never made a lot of money, so not much left to save. How scary is that?

I often wonder what the percentages are of people who enter retirement age with little to no savings.

I often fear, I don't have enough, but I can't imagine not having anything.

 

[Moemg]

Moemg, do you ever worry about what will happen to them?

No , I think they are survivors and will do okay . They may end up living on a much smaller scale but I think they will not be destitute .

 

[flotsamandjetsam]

We are starting to have a similar problem with family members. They are not spendthrifts like your friends but as we age we are diverging into different financial strata. Since we became FI, occasions arise where our well-off-edness becomes suddenly apparent. FAFSA is a land-mine that comes to mind.

 

[Zoocat]

Since we became FI, occasions arise where our well-off-edness becomes suddenly apparent. FAFSA is a land-mine that comes to mind.

What is FAFSA?

Also, I wonder if those of us who are financially ok in retirement (just ok not wealthy) will begin to feel isolated. Sometimes even now, because i only work part time, I get some flak , ie. jealous comments, not necessarily from friends, but even from strangers if the conversation happens to touch upon the fact that I work part time. Sometimes it's so annoying.

 

[rescueme]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

People, like horses, will only do what they have a mind to do.

 

[flotsamandjetsam]

Free Application for Federal Student Aid. A more or less important aspect of sending a kid to college.

 

[Nords]

One friend in particular barely keeps afloat with her employment but constantly needs cash infusions from relatives, has a stack of credit card bills, and always says she wants to go with me on this vacation or that trip even though she can't afford it. It's all wishful thinking. Boy, she wears me out just thinking about her.
Another friend has serious health problems but just cashed out a IRA to do house improvements, lives on credit cards, has no retirement savings, just a very small pension.
But that causes some stress for me, as I have to monitor myself, avoid talking about certain things, etc.
Unfortunately, these are long time friends that I would have difficulty saying goodbye to. So, I guess I am just going to have to limit my involvement with them. It's sad. Does anyone else have this problem? And how do you deal with it? I can imagine that this sort of thing would be even more difficult with family members.

Moemg, do you ever worry about what will happen to them? I mean serious destitution? Would you help them financially? Maybe I am too much of a worrier but I am very concerned about these friends of mine. I can envision a very impoverished future for them.

Would you pay for the first friend to take a vacation with you? Would you pay for the home improvements of the second friend? If not then I'm not sure what their friendship has to offer.

You could try telling them that you worry about them, but I doubt they're worried enough on their own to change their ways.

The typical solution to this problem is a new set of friends. Unless you limit your involvement, they'll just make you more miserable as time goes on. At some point they may even limit their involvement with you...

I have several shipmates who show every sign of working until they die. As the years go by we have less and less to talk about, let alone in common. We trade e-mail and holiday letters but that's about it.

 

[Animorph]

Best reason for keeping Social Security around. Force people to "save" for retirement and make sure they have some type of minimal income when they can't work. Seems like many don't do it on their own.

Kind of like health insurance. We have plenty of guys begging for liver transplants now that the state has cut them out of the budget. Would have been nice to have them all insured before they needed it.

 

[Zoocat]

Would you pay for the first friend to take a vacation with you? Would you pay for the home improvements of the second friend? If not then I'm not sure what their friendship has to offer.

You could try telling them that you worry about them, but I doubt they're worried enough on their own to change their ways.

The typical solution to this problem is a new set of friends. Unless you limit your involvement, they'll just make you more miserable as time goes on. At some point they may even limit their involvement with you...

I have several shipmates who show every sign of working until they die. As the years go by we have less and less to talk about, let alone in common. We trade e-mail and holiday letters but that's about it.

Nords, that is why it is so sad, to lose touch with old friends because of this financial situation. Of course I would not take them on vacation or pay for home repairs. The thing is with friends that sometimes they are not perfect, or even close. My friends are not imposing on me. I am just concerned about them. Next time they bring up finances I will say I am concerned but leave it at that. Thanks for the input.

 

[Major Tom]

You cannot change other people. They will only change if they want to change, but although money (or lack of ) can be a deciding factor in how much time you spend with your friends, consider the qualities their friendship brings to the table.

Most of my friends haven't saved in the way that I did, but I love what they bring into my life when I'm around them. One of my best friends spends money as fast as he makes it, but he is a very open and loving person. He acknowledges his lack of ability to manage money but has told me that he doesn't care. The great thing about him, and my other friends who are also like this, is that he would never blame me for not helping him out if he fell on hard times due to his own lack of planning. However, I have a feeling he will somehow do fine, as long as he can make it to SS-eligible age. He's a very social person who will be able to find someone to share expense with as he ages.

I don't have too much time for folks who fail to plan for themselves and expect others to help them when they fall, but I have plenty of time for anyone who takes responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

 

[obgyn65]

I could not have said it better. Thank you Major Tom.

I don't have too much time for folks who fail to plan for themselves and expect others to help them when they fall, but I have plenty of time for anyone who tales responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

 

[FIREd]

I do have this problem and I have dealt with it by avoiding the subject .

Ditto!

 

[NW-Bound]

Unfortunately, these are long time friends that I would have difficulty saying goodbye to.

I do have this problem and I have dealt with it by avoiding the subject ... I enjoy these people. When we are together we discuss everything but avoid financial discussions . It works !

I have a long-time friend like that. I just do not talk about savings and retirement with him. However, he will do OK though, as he is good as what he does and makes good money. He will work until he croaks, and his employer is happy to keep him as long as they can.

 

[Meadbh]

I could not have said it better. Thank you Major Tom.

+1

I have some friends and acquaintances who are like yours, Oldbabe. One of them spends money like water but earns a lot, too. I actually felt so uncomfortable socializing with her that we drifted apart. I could never match up.

Another has a modest income plus alimony and on one occasion ran into trouble when her ex did not pay his part of the child allowance on time. I helped her out with a loan. Later, when everything had settled down and the loan had been repaid, I saw her spending more than I believe she can afford. If she asks for help again, I will be referring her to her local financial institution.

So I guess these are not really strong friendships, at least to me.

 

[jacob]

Hard as it is to live by this: some just like complaining and fixing their problems isn't as high a priority for them as it is to have the opportunity to complain about them. In particular, they put a lower priority on fixing their problem than you do on fixing their problem. It's not hard to see how this could be the case for money-related matters for anyone on this forum as e-r people place a high priority on monies and budgets.

It's the same situation for people who always crash their computers with viruses vs software geeks; dentists vs people who don't floss; and so on.

The best thing is just to avoid subjects where the conflict of interest is too great; if you got the social skills (I don't) just empathize with them but don't put too much energy into finding a solution as they don't care anyway.

 

[mickeyd]

We have a family friend who is nearing retirement age, but advised us recently that she doubts that she can live on the "measly" pension that the school district has for her and she has never "gotten around to" cranking up a 403(b) or IRA. Sad situation. She then mentioned that the 10 trips that she took to Europe over the last 25 years were fun, but she wished she had the money back.

I mentioned something about delayed gratification and planning for the future rather than the present and she just sighed...

 

[RunningBum]

I think the best you can do is express your concern, and be there if they want help putting together a plan, and don't be an enabler--e.g., don't go with them on vacations they can't afford.

 

[martyb]

My best friend since high school, is my age (53) and is a truck driver. He & his wife have a good bit of debt, because they've always lived above their means, meaning using credit to take nice vacations and buy things they couldn't really afford.

They have no savings, no pensions, and will be living on Social Security only when they get to that point. I've been trying to help him get a federal job, for the medical insurance, but that's not easy to do, and I'm not in any kind of position to really help him, other than spot possible jobs for him & help him with his resume.

I don't know what's going to happen to him, his health's becoming a concern and I'll be surprised if he is able to keep working more than a few more years, most likely will end up on some kind of disability.

We always talked about the things we'd do, trips we'd take when we got to be old retired buds. Our wives get along well & I figured we'd do stuff together, take some trips etc. But....the reality is we're preparing for retirement & they will never really retire...except for SS, and I don't see them going on too many cruises or big-time vacations on SS.

I expect I'll be picking up the check most of the time when we go out to dinner together.

 

[Loop Lawyer]

This issue resonates with me, too. My difficult situations do not involve friends, as I have always chosen my friends for their character and, to me, solid character definitely includes financial responsibility. We don't choose family, however, other than spouse and, arguably, descendants. I have five siblings still alive (one died), four of whom are financially irresponsible. They learned this from their mother, who is an "enabler" par excellence and is, individually, the most irresponsible of all. It is sad but true that my personal net worth is at least treble the net worth of all five of them, taken together.

The consequence of their decisions to live irresponsible lives has been a very high degree of estrangement. The specific causes of the estrangement are two: (1) actual requests for money, which I have come to refuse due to bad experiences early on; and (2) anticipated requests for money, which I simply don't want to hear. I find that the second is more upsetting than the first, and this has caused me to cut off contact for the most part. I wish I could figure out how to manage this better, but I can't. Who wants to socialize with a Financial Pig Pen? Not I.

 

[Loop Lawyer]

A footnote to my last post: When I say "requests for money," I'm not talking about "supper" money or "the rent," although those requests would upset me, too. I'm talking for the most part about outrageous requests, such as the one my oldest sister made last year: "Please pay $50,000 so my youngest son can attend boarding school for a year in order to try to qualify for admission to a better college," she "asked." I was aghast. I replied that I had enrolled my own children in public schools for the entirety of their elementary and secondary education, as she well knew, and that, if I had decided not to send my own children to boarding school, why would I do it for a child of hers? We haven't spoken since.

 

[traineeinvestor]

Having seen the very ugly side of having relatives turn to other relatives for financial support within my own family, I can sympathise but have to suggest that whatever you do, don't let your sympathy lead you to a position where you get dragged down with them - either financially or emotionally.

 

[Loop Lawyer]

A footnote to my footnote: The same sister is married to a man who, a year earlier still, came to see me in my club (I payed for dinner, of course), and, over dinner, asked me for money to finance a company that he had started "because he couldn't stand wearing a tie any more." He said this to me while I was wearing a tie! His company had been a complete flop, and apparently he felt I was stupid enough to bail him out. Because of another failed venture ten years earlier, he and my sister had declared bankruptcy, but he didn't want to talk about that, of course.

So, at the time of my sister's request for $50K of "boarding school money" (see above), her husband was voluntarily unemployed -- the "tie" thing, you know. And yet these people actually had the gall to come to me for that money. By the way, the kid wound up going to a very mediocre but expensive college for which he has borrowed an amount of money that he will probably never be able to repay. Just like his brothers and sister. And like his bankrupt mother, in fact.

As you can tell, it gets me steamed just recalling these events. Sadly, there are many others like them. (These are simply the most recent ones.) I'VE FOUND THAT SOME PEOPLE NEVER LEARN. Even "Suze" can't help them. I have found that such people are best avoided.