Immediate Annuity as part of your Retirement Portfolio

freddyw

Recycles dryer sheets
Joined
Mar 2, 2007
Messages
61
I was curious as to how many of our retired members use an Intermediate Annuity as part of their portfolio. I am considering purchasing one and would appreciate anyone's feedback on their experience researching and purchasing an IA.

If you do have a Immediate Annuity, did you purchase one with inflation protection based on CPI-U or go with a standard fixed payment.

Lastly, what % of total portfolio is the IA?

Thanks in advance. :)
 
Since you asked nice, I'll answer nice.

Yes, I/DW have one, purchased upon my retirement at age 59. It is not inflation adjusted, since it was purchased as a "pension replacement" (since I didn't have one) to primarily cover the gap from age 59 till age 70, when I will claim SS (that's another subject, completely).

Without going into details, I'll just say that an annuity - that is more specifically a Single Premium Immediate Annuity (SPIA) may have a place in your retirement income plan. Not all folks need one, and there are alternatives, based upon your risk assessment and desire to actively manage your income sources. For others, an SPIA may be the answer - as it was in our case.

Almost four years later, we have no regrets and we still have 90% of our original portfolio to manage without worrying about having sufficient ER income sources. The SPIA fits that niche quite well.
 
If I were in the position to buy a SPIA, I would hold off for now. The rates are so ridiculously low that unless you have a 95+ year life expectancy, you are locking yourself into a pretty weak contract IMO. If you don't need the immediate income, I would look into an indexed annuity with a guaranteed income rider. Others on the board here will trash the idea, but it gives you the flexibility to increase cash value in the present while guaranteeing an income in the future. You can always walk away with the cash and buy a SPIA after the surrender period if interest rates rise. Just my opinion, don't want to turn this into a 5-page ELIA thread.
 
If we were fishing, I would say you are chumming. :LOL:

Geez, I'm not sure how to take your response? :confused:

I'm just trying to get quality feedback from a membership that I respect and realize has alot of useful information and experience to contribute to other members of this forum.

I am researching annuities and searched this forum for related topics however, sometimes there are others out there who have not posted to a particular thread topic and could provide useful information to my questions. Sorry I asked.
 
Immediate annuities are an oft-discussed subject here. Use the search function to find any number of threads.

Here's one from just last week:

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/immediate-annuity-54477.html

and another one from last month:

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/annuities-you-need-one-really-54462.html

There are many more. Read some of them first. Then ask your question. I'll bet it won't be the same question.

Gumby
Thanks for the reply. I had read the previous posts as well as many other posts based on searching "immediate annuities" in this forum. There are alot of opinions both pro and con for a SPIA for sure. However, I am attempting to get feedback from those retired forum members who do have an IA as to the type they choose and what % it is of their total portfolio. Right now I am in the "gray zone" based on Otar's book, and considering ways to offset risk such as using a SPIA.
 
Geez, I'm not sure how to take your response? :confused:

I'm just trying to get quality feedback from a membership that I respect and realize has alot of useful information and experience to contribute to other members of this forum.

I am researching annuities and searched this forum for related topics however, sometimes there are others out there who have not posted to a particular thread topic and could provide useful information to my questions. Sorry I asked.

Sorry, no offense intended. It is somewhat of an inside joke here, but because annuities tend to be very profitable for the selling agent, we are constantly besieged by salesmen. Anyone posting that they want an annuity is somewhat akin to tossing blood into the water to watch the sharks work up a froth.
 
We're currently buying CPI-adjusted life annuities from the federal government. Each month that we defer SS benefits we're buying another little annuity. Our current plans are that we won't start SS until 70, but that could change with a change in health.

I think an SPIA is a fine idea, but at current prices the government's deal is better than the private annuities I've found. If the gov't didn't give us this option, I'd probably be in the private SPIA market.

If we wait till 70, our combined SS benefits will easily cover all our regular spending, and that seems like "enough" annuity to me. I wouldn't target a particular percent of my portfolio for an annuity. Instead, I put enough in to provide a particular income.

Note that if you're serious about buying a private SPIA, be sure to consider deferring to an "older" age. Unlike life insurance, you don't risk losing insurability with an SPIA
 
I like the idea of having a SPIA annuity. Though maybe not the best investment, it offers peace of mind.

It's kind of like having one's mortgage paid off. The certainty offers comort.

In certain times, one can get a better return having a mortgage and investing the money somewhere else. However, with a paid off mortgage, as long as you pay your taxes, no one can kick you out of your own place. As for the SPIA, when the market tanks, it sure is nice to have a constant amount of cash coming in like clockwork every month.

That said, I wouldn't get one in this climate as the interest rate is so low.
 
I am thinking of getting a fixed immediate lifetime annuity with inflation adjustment, but I will wait until I am older (80-85, maybe?) in order to take advantage of a better pay-out at that age. Interest rates might be better by that time, too.

By age 80-85, I will have a better idea of what my expenses in old age might be, too, so I'd have a better idea of what size annuity I might want.
 
W2R, if you have a pension and it covers your expenses and you still haven't taken SS why would you want an annuity? Do you plan to spend more money at the age of 85? Annuities confuse me but I think that's the way the ins companies want it.
 
W2R, if you have a pension and it covers your expenses and you still haven't taken SS why would you want an annuity? Do you plan to spend more money at the age of 85? Annuities confuse me but I think that's the way the ins companies want it.

Well, maybe my expenses would be higher at that age than they are now, due to the rising cost of medical expenses and the rising proportion of those expenses that the individual is supposed to be paying. And who knows what Medicare will pay if it even exists in 20 years. I'll have a better idea when I am older. :)

My partially COLA'd tiny pension is in the mid 3 figures per month (gross) at present. It doesn't pay my expenses (sorry if I was misleading about that!). Once I claim SS I will be doing pretty well in that regard, relative to my present expenses, but with inflation, and cutbacks on SS cost of living increases, again we are facing the unknown 20 years from now. My objective will be to have SS+pension+annuity = expenses in old age.
 
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W2R, if you have a pension and it covers your expenses and you still haven't taken SS why would you want an annuity? Do you plan to spend more money at the age of 85? Annuities confuse me but I think that's the way the ins companies want it.
All she needs to do is say "wheee!" about the market and then go immediately short. Who needs an annuity? :)
 
It is amazing how that Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee! thing works!

I really wish I had more warning of the market collapse.

;)

Free to canoe
 
In regards to the original post, no age was stated. In addition to the pathetic payouts at current interest rates, it always makes sense to first delay SS to 70 for the cheapest COLA'd annuity available -- if you trust the future of SS -- not a political statement but some people don't -- I personally do.

I personally recommend deferring annuity decisions until after age 70. First, death or a serious medical conditions usually says that it's a bad decision. Second, the payout after age 70 actually starts to look decent although they still don't quite match the mortality tables.

If you would like to bring up any version of variable or indexed annuities, I will assume you are a troll and suggest you put all of you free cash into them because my index funds hold stocks that fake a fortune off of people that buy them. Based on my father's and FIL's behavior, they are only bought by those with limited financial understanding or diminished mental capabilities.
 
I will FIRE this year. We are planning on a SPIA purchase... but will wait till the Fed is done with QE and see what happens to interest rates. We may purchase it in several smaller purchases.

I am not considering an inflation rider at this time. I am not sure it is worth the money.... but it obviously depends on future inflation which is hard to predict.

I would rather have more of the money at a younger age (in early FIRE) to reduce the WR% on our portfolio in the early years. Since most of our net worth will be in our portfolio, we will use it to deal with inflation.
 
I am thinking of getting a fixed immediate lifetime annuity with inflation adjustment, but I will wait until I am older (80-85, maybe?) in order to take advantage of a better pay-out at that age. Interest rates might be better by that time, too.

By age 80-85, I will have a better idea of what my expenses in old age might be, too, so I'd have a better idea of what size annuity I might want.

85? I hope I'm still alive at that point.:blink:
 
I usually don't respond twice to the same question/thread, but in this case I'll make an exception.

It has been suggested by those on these thread/forum/other forums that you should not consider an SPIA until your 70's, 80's or beyond; especially in today's low-interest environment.

As one who has an SPIA, I'll just respond in this manner.

1. Many "experts" say that the current rate of interest is low. Yes it is, and I won't debate that fact. However looking at the M* forum (Bogleheads) a comment was made by Taylor Larimore that he received a 10% return on his/DW's SPIA. I know that both Taylor/me purchased an SPIA (he purchased two - DW/me, one) within a similar timeframe of a year or so, but our return is calculated at just under 5%.

Why the difference? Primarily since SPIA returns (if you calculate using an IRR spreadsheet) also represent a return of your own investment/premium. It does not only represent actual returns upon your money.

In my/DW's case, our IRR calculation is based upon a guaranteed 28-year return, which will give us an amount equal to twice (non inflation adjusted) what we paid. If we both/either live longer? Those additional payments will actually increase in percentage gain, month by month. Of course, if we both pass before the 28 year period ends, the remaining payments go to our estate and we are held to that slightly under 5% long term result.

It's not the current interest rate, but also the "longevity credits" that you have to calculate. The older you are the higher rate of monthly income you will receive, regardless of interest rates at the time of purchase. There is simply less time that the insurance company needs to measure risk, and make payments.

2. Regardless of interest rates, one must measure the income vs. the need for that income, regardless of age.

Many folks continue to state that "you must" wait until you are in your 70's, 80's along with the idea that current interest rates are "too low". What they fail to consider is that while rates are low, will the purchase of an SPIA provide a basic level of retirement income, regardless of age?

I mentioned that the primary reason we purchased an SPIA was to provide a base of income for an eleven year period; from the time I retired till age 70, when I will claim SS (for the benefit of my DW). Could I have withdrawn it only from my TIRA (which makes up the bulk of my retirement investment/savings)? Sure.

However, in eleven years, a lot can go wrong with the market. That's why we jointly decided to take 10% of our "stash" and purchase an SPIA, which reduces our ER withdrawals and allows us to continue to be active in the equity/bond markets with the majority of our retirement investments. Remember, we put only 10% of our then retirement assets into an SPIA.

OTOH, over those eleven years (4 down, thus far), the SPIA has provided us with a good base of income while allowing us to delay SS and maximize our benefits (that's another story), regardless of the early age that we purchased it.

Again, I'm not trying to convince anybody. Not everybody can benefit from an SPIA (the only annuity I would consider). However, I'm just trying to give a few thoughts to consider, while "generally accepted facts" are constantly thrown around, without proper context to consider...
 
I usually don't respond twice to the same question/thread, but in this case I'll make an exception.

It has been suggested by those on these thread/forum/other forums that you should not consider an SPIA until your 70's, 80's or beyond; especially in today's low-interest environment.

....

There are many ways to achieve a successful retirement. Some will do it through superior management of their resources and a basic budget.... others through severe belt tightening.... and anything in between. Many ways to get there. Some will wind up in poverty. In the USA... one makes their future bed and has to lay in it.

My reason for buying a SPIA (lifetime annuity) early is that reduces our WR% on the portfolio and provides some amount longevity protection. If anything happens to me, DW (who is not financially saavy) will have a ready income stream (SPIA, my Pension and SS). And let's not forget about making investment mistakes, being ripped off.... by good old fashioned bad decisions, dementia or otherwise, and a plethora of other later life issues that one might never consider that could lead to financial ruin or impairment!

One of my goals is to reduce our risk. Risk mitigation costs.... if not in real terms in the form of opportunity.

DW and I think it is worth it to spend some amount of our nest egg to reduce the chance of having to go back to work or balance our books through belt-tightening. Of course, DW and I are both healthy and DW is from a family of women that live into their late 80's and early 90's
 
4 years ago I was buying CD's from Pen Fed at 6 1/4%, why would someone buy a SPIA at 5%. This January I bought another CD at 5% from Pen Fed for 10 years. Some day I'll understand this but for now I'm confused. I can see Taylor buying one at 10% but why would you buy one at 5%?
 
4 years ago I was buying CD's from Pen Fed at 6 1/4%, why would someone buy a SPIA at 5%. This January I bought another CD at 5% from Pen Fed for 10 years. Some day I'll understand this but for now I'm confused. I can see Taylor buying one at 10% but why would you buy one at 5%?
Did that CD provide you with a consistant monthly income stream, and were you able to withdraw a portion of your principal along the way, along with interest - computed against the initial amount? Did they provide a monthly distribution that could be used to cover your basic expenses? Or did you just lock up your money without any immediate income requirement?

SPIA's are not CD's. Both have their place in a retirement portfolio. Don't confuse the two - they are not equal in use, or in return. While CD's may provide a "superior return", remember that your initial investment is locked up for a specific period of time. SPIA's do not operate in that fashion. You start getting "benefits" every month, upon initial purchase. You are receiving a small portion of your original "invested" amount, along with a portion of gains on your preimum paid. If you wish, your monthly portion of that "original investment amount" can be reinvested, as you wish.

Again, if the CD "route" works for you? Great. I'm just trying to speak about the "common thoughts and misperceptions" as related to SPIA's.

I'll repeat myself. SPIA's are not for everybody. If they fit your plan, great. If not, just don't disregard them based upon "common perceptions" that are discussed on many forums...

BTW, I can't wait for 10 years to get income I need today; my DW expects much, much more... :whistle: ... In retirement, cashflow is everything. Regardless of the superior rate of return (of CD's and other investments), if it can't be "harvested" to pay the monthly bills, it is of little use, IMHO.

As to the question of why I would do it? It is related to SS benefits, which is an entire different discussion. Feel free to PM me if you want the details...
 
Some basic illustrations compliments of Bob.

Take note of the first two illustrations (which is easy to overlook).... They are contrived scenarios, but they starkly illustrates the differences between the accumulation and withdrawal phases. It shows the risk and the dynamics at work in different scenarios during withdrawal. Obviously an immediate annuity is used for the withdrawal phase... but those illustrations setup the discussion in his paper.


Immediate Annuities in Retirement
 
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