HELOC and Investment Strategy

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sheehs1

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Would any of you consider doing something like this?

There is no mortgage on my home. I have a Heloc that years ago was set at prime minus 1 (when they were giving away money). Interest Rate follows the Fed Funds Rate so the interest rate is 2.25%. The HELOC is for $300,000 and we owe about $30,000. Scheduled to be paid off by Dec 2013. Could do it sooner but want (ed) to leave this cheap money source open.

I have no other debt. (Blended family and finances are sort of separate). My own net worth (without my husbands added in) is about 2.5 m . Investable financial assets around 1.25 million and projected to be 1.4 m by the end of 2013.

I want to make my money work for me while not increasing overhead expenses. Don't we all. :).

I'm looking at investing in agency REITS that invest in mortgage back securities. I know...I know....but from what I have read there it little credit default risk in the agency REITS with the only real risk being a rise in interest rates. If one is to believe Bernake, it will be 2014 before rates rise. The two agency reits I'm looking at yield 13.5% and 17%. Need to do a bit more due diligence on them but they buy mortgage paper from the GSE's (backed by the federal government) and leverage it. I don't see how the GSE's will never be backed by the Federal Government in the short term.

Because they are REITS, they have to pay 90% of their profit to the shareholders...etc. Current valuation for each is about what it was in 2008 so no real negative value at this time as compared to today. Although NAV can vary 3% to 4% when distributions are paid out. But do I care, if it distributes 13% to 17% every quarter?

It is basically a play on the carry trade.

My question is this. I'm considering taking my entire Heloc of $300,000 and investing it for the 13% to 17%. The collateral is my house. So none of my current financial assets would be in this.

My Heloc interest only payment would be $6,750 a year ($562.5 a month). Projections for the yield from the Reits is $45,000 a year ($3,759 a month but they pay quarterly).

I would also have an eye out for interest rate rises and would get out with the first rate hike.

Pros
- tax deduction for the Heloc. Otherwise I have none.
- Financial assets that can cover some downside (but wouldn't make me happy)
- money has the potential of working harder for me

Cons
- interest rate increases would mean yields on the Reits are reduced but I'd have fair warning.

Am considering doing this in my Scottrade account to eliminate 1% brokerage fee.

What do you guys know about agency REITS? Is this a thumbs up or thumbs down strategy? Am I crazy to consider it?
 
I would not do this. The problem is not reduced yield in the event of interest rate increases. The real problem is that if we go into a rising rate cycle the value of the REIT portfolio will get hammered and you will be looking at a large, leveraged loss.
 
You're not looking at AGNC and NLY, are you? I have a little money invested in both of those. And, like you, I borrowed against my HELOC to invest in stocks (not just those stocks in particular).

One thing to consider is that those nice payouts that the REITs give you are taxed at ordinary income rates, rather than qualified dividends. That may or may not be a concern for you. If you have those REITs in a 401k or IRA, the dividends are sheltered.

I've mainly been buying these REITs on the dips. They'll drop on the Ex- date, just like any stock does, I guess, but they've usually rebounded pretty quickly. And, they'll drop here and there whenever some gloomy headlines get published, but again, they've bounced back fairly quickly.

Personally, I'd be leery putting a whole $300K into REITs, but that's just me. Right now I have about $16K in a rollover IRA, and another $33K in my Scottrade account. I've been happy with them so far, although AGNC just cut its dividend, and NLY has cut their dividend several times, now.
 
Andre1969 said:
You're not looking at AGNC and NLY, are you? I have a little money invested in both of those. And, like you, I borrowed against my HELOC to invest in stocks (not just those stocks in particular).

One thing to consider is that those nice payouts that the REITs give you are taxed at ordinary income rates, rather than qualified dividends. That may or may not be a concern for you. If you have those REITs in a 401k or IRA, the dividends are sheltered.

I've mainly been buying these REITs on the dips. They'll drop on the Ex- date, just like any stock does, I guess, but they've usually rebounded pretty quickly. And, they'll drop here and there whenever some gloomy headlines get published, but again, they've bounced back fairly quickly.

Personally, I'd be leery putting a whole $300K into REITs, but that's just me. Right now I have about $16K in a rollover IRA, and another $33K in my Scottrade account. I've been happy with them so far, although AGNC just cut its dividend, and NLY has cut their dividend several times, now.
Click to expand...


+1

Bernanke could throw a switch and destroy their borrowing advantage, in addition to intrinsic market risks. There is a regulatory review related to their advantageous status that is underway, if I could only remember what it was.
 
Hi Brewer...yes...I understand but was only thinking about doing it thru the end of this year and perhaps into the next or until interest rates "might" go up. Bernake has signaled thru 2013 and possibly into 2014. The U.S.A. can't afford for the rates to go up as they (we) have to be able to afford the debt load. Right? So personally my gut tells me it may be a while before we see interest rates go up.

Andre1969...yes those are the ones I'm looking at. And maybe I won't use my Heloc or perhaps not all of it as you said. It seems a shame not to use it since it is a very low interest rate. I was just thinking, there ought to be a way to smartly leverage it, not get burned, maybe make some money and get a slight tax deduction in the process. After all, it is what these Reits do and what the banks do.

Thanks for reminding me it is at ordinary tax rates. Taxes are a big concern. So perhaps I'll sell some of what is in my IRA's and do something else with the taxable account money.


I was aware the yields have come down some but currently they are at 13% and 17%.
 
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@sheehs1,

This may have blown over, I got out so didn't keep track.

SEC review takes the lustre off Reits shares - FT.com

​
"[The SEC said the exclusion of Reits from rules for typical funds, including limits on borrowing, could raise the potential for abuses “such as deliberate misvaluation of the company’s holdings, extensive leveraging and overreaching by insiders”.]"

OOPS, I didn't notice your edit... you must have a small lawn.
 
Last edited:
I have certainly done the HELOC investment thing, a couple of times, though with my normal AA and closer to a market bottom. The interest on the HELOC is tax free on principal used for investment if you can itemize it, so at least one side of the trade is tax advantaged. I was concerned with rising rates, but jumped out too fast the first time I did this. The other thing is the duration of the HELOC itself. I have to renew mine every 7 years, so I'm careful not to get caught fully invested whenever I have to renew.

I have no idea on the REITs. Sounds pretty risky to me.
 
bld999 said:
@sheehs1,

This may have blown over, I got out so didn't keep track.

SEC review takes the lustre off Reits shares - FT.com

​
"[The SEC said the exclusion of Reits from rules for typical funds, including limits on borrowing, could raise the potential for abuses “such as deliberate misvaluation of the company’s holdings, extensive leveraging and overreaching by insiders”.]"

OOPS, I didn't notice your edit... you must have a small lawn.
Click to expand...

3/4 of an acre ..I looked around a bit before I went back out to finish :)
Thanks for the link.
 
sheehs1 said:
Hi Brewer...yes...I understand but was only thinking about doing it thru the end of this year and perhaps into the next or until interest rates "might" go up. Bernake has signaled thru 2013 and possibly into 2014. The U.S.A. can't afford for the rates to go up as they (we) have to be able to afford the debt load. Right? So personally my gut tells me it may be a while before we see interest rates go up.
Click to expand...

So you want to borrow money to buy the equity of vehicles that are in themselves using borrowed money to lever up something like 7 times? And you think you can get out ahead of everyone else in one of the most efficient markets in the world (treasury rates)? I would wish you luck, but with stones that big I don't think you need it.
 
Animorph said:
I have certainly done the HELOC investment thing, a couple of times, though with my normal AA and closer to a market bottom. The interest on the HELOC is tax free on principal used for investment if you can itemize it, so at least one side of the trade is tax advantaged. I was concerned with rising rates, but jumped out too fast the first time I did this. The other thing is the duration of the HELOC itself. I have to renew mine every 7 years, so I'm careful not to get caught fully invested whenever I have to renew.

I have no idea on the REITs. Sounds pretty risky to me.
Click to expand...

Mine isn't a loan...it's an equity line....so I don't think I have a time frame. Of course, they can call it or reduce it at any time I suppose.

I have to give it all more thought. Using the Heloc/Line for investment purposes may or may not be the way to go. But it is a bucket sitting there and is available. Heck, if I had had in my AA these last few months...oh well....
 
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brewer12345 said:
So you want to borrow money to buy the equity of vehicles that are in themselves using borrowed money to lever up something like 7 times? And you think you can get out ahead of everyone else in one of the most efficient markets in the world (treasury rates)? I would wish you luck, but with stones that big I don't think you need it.
Click to expand...

Haven't made a decision Brewer. Just scoping it out. I'm typically very careful so can't say for certain I'll do this. It's not a matter of my thinking I can get ahead of everyone else,it's a matter of thinking of ways to make the monies I have available to me work harder for me. Whether that is in agency REITS invested in government backed GSE's or Closed End Call writing funds that are not leveraged or Dominion stock paying 4% yield or Phillip Morris at 5% yield.
And I'm not really borrowing money so much as I'm borrowing my equity. Same think I suppose but it reads a different way. It's equity I've already paid for. Both views are valid...depending on where one sits with things.

I'm trying to sort it out...to see if I'm comfortable with it at all.
Your comments are appreciated . All the comments are. Best way to make decisions is to shoot holes all the way thru it. :)
 
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You are borrowing money. Leverage is leverage. Think all of this through and make your own decision, but don't fool yourself. Leverage is leverage.
 
Regardless of what Bernake says or does, if the economy sharply improves we have the potential of seeing rates spike pretty quickly.

Remember, he only actually sets short term rates. If long term rates move against these REITs, you could see massive downside in their prices.

I have no idea how likely a large loss is, but it isn't tiny.

Are you ok with a 15% percent chance of a six-figure loss?


sheehs1 said:
Bernake has signaled thru 2013 and possibly into 2014.
Click to expand...
 
sheehs1 said:
Mine isn't a loan...it's an equity line....so I don't think I have a time frame. Of course, they can call it or reduce it at any time I suppose.

I have to give it all more thought. Using the Heloc/Line for investment purposes may or may not be the way to go. But it is a bucket sitting there and is available. Heck, if I had had in my AA these last few months...oh well....
Click to expand...

Mine is a line as well. But not all of them have time limits. Just that mine sounds exactly the same as yours. Went to prime -1 last time I renewed.
 
Animorph said:
The interest on the HELOC is tax free on principal used for investment if you can itemize it, so at least one side of the trade is tax advantaged.
Click to expand...

The interest on this loan, if you use the interest tracing rules to apply it to investment interest, is deductible up to the amount of ordinary investment income you receive. The maximum equity debt (not used to increase the value of the home) is $100,000 so if you did borrow the full 300k you would want to use interest tracing. Investment expenses are subject to the 2% limitation - the more AGI you have the less you can deduct. Have you or your tax adviser looked at what effect this will have on your taxes? This really isn't a large interest deduction. If you are married, it doesn't even rise to the level of being able to itemize unless you have other deductible expenses.
 
pfleming said:
The interest on this loan, if you use the interest tracing rules to apply it to investment interest, is deductible up to the amount of ordinary investment income you receive. The maximum equity debt (not used to increase the value of the home) is $100,000 so if you did borrow the full 300k you would want to use interest tracing. Investment expenses are subject to the 2% limitation - the more AGI you have the less you can deduct. Have you or your tax adviser looked at what effect this will have on your taxes? This really isn't a large interest deduction. If you are married, it doesn't even rise to the level of being able to itemize unless you have other deductible expenses.
Click to expand...

Considering the little I currently owe on the equity line it is currently a small interest deduction as well. My husband is a CPA and has a small practice :). He never thinks it makes sense to spend a dollar to save 30 cents and I agree with him. It may be that I'll use my 2 CD's coming due April 10 rather than the bucket of money available to me on this line. Using the HELOC/EquityLIne is probably not a good idea. BTW....yes we itemize as we both have other deductions. Thanks for your input!
 
sheehs1 said:
Considering the little I currently owe on the equity line it is currently a small interest deduction as well. My husband is a CPA and has a small practice :). He never thinks it makes sense to spend a dollar to save 30 cents and I agree with him. It may be that I'll use my 2 CD's coming due April 10 rather than the bucket of money available to me on this line. Using the HELOC/EquityLIne is probably not a good idea. BTW....yes we itemize as we both have other deductions. Thanks for your input!
Click to expand...
You stated that you have a fairly hefty amount of assets. Are they throwing off taxable, tax free or deferred tax income? Are you going to hold the agency REITs in taxable, non-taxable or tax deferred accounts? How you hold affects the deductibility of the interest.

Now, as to spending $1.00 to save $0.30... I see that you wrote you wanted to spend $6,750/yr to earn $45,000/yr (minus the possible tax savings on the $6,750) which looks pretty good. The $45,000, if fully taxable, will also cost you $.30 on the dollar.

So if you couldn't deduct any of the $6,750 and add the approx $13,500 (30%) in taxes that will run $20,250 or 45% of the $45,000 for a net after tax return of $24,750 which is 8.3% on the original $300,000. (I'm ignoring deductibility of the $6,750 which you really have to consider and will be specific to your situation for these numbers)

Of course, the free cash that you have in maturing CDs would have less risk as it's not tied to your HELOC and doesn't have nearly the same carrying cost. The question that I would ask myself is how hard is it to leave $24,750/yr after tax on the table?
 
Leveraging can be a good thing and it can kick you in the teeth. Personally if you have a good amount of liquidity I'd consider an emerging market. We've all seen what different market sects in China have done and if we haven't would probably hang ourselves when we see what they've made compared to our economy. You have to remember they actually took the torch from us and are running with it. If you didn't already know, I'll have to look at it again - but a few years ago they owned 4X more of our 10yr bond than we did - yes... The same 10yr bond that influences our credit rates and social security. They bought us when we were extremely cheap - although now we're much cheaper with our non-standardized money and our good friend inflation...
Speaking of that emerging market did you know that if you're native Chinese you can walk into any government building and buy silver @ spot!!! at spot!!! They're literally helping people leverage themselves against the mistakes we've made with our money. And yes I understand that Silver has taken some swings.. but compared to a non-collateralized dollar , I'll take the silver any day..

I don't know if you watch Jim Cramer, but a few years ago he was put under a huge fire and all the videos regarding it has been taken off you tube because someone called in and asked about how to make the most profit and not have to deal with the hoopla that's going on in the market right now... He was put under fire because of all the companies that sponsor the show and gave a huge public apology because of what he said and I cant remember the exact words but it was something like this-
If you really want to make money and not have to deal with all the stuff going on here in the US then for the next 5 years invest your money abroad..

CD's in my personal opinion are a poor option for 2 reasons:
1. they don't out pace inflation
2. if they do the tax you pay on them takes you right back under the pace of inflation

so when you look at it the dollar amounts are going up but your financial power is going down. Saving to go poor.. =(

On a really good note though... I know that there's going to be an apex in the RE market directly... it's not going to be anything ridiculous like we just experienced, slow if anything but an awesome opportunity to go long on some assets.

When the rates start to come back up the cost of living will act as a fulcrum to drive the price of the homes down. if you're liquid enough this would be an awesome time to pick up some depreciated assets. I personally know of someone who did this in the 90's (on the flat side of the swing after the late 80's crash) with two 20unit complexes and has been living pretty crisp ever since.. The cool thing is that he did it on the flat side (premature) and even then he's doing pretty well.. He hasn't needed to make a single investment since.. pretty humble guy - I would keep the money train moving and do something cool with it like feed the needy or create financial education programs but that's just me.. =) Good luck with your investing.. I hope you find what works best for you..
 
pfleming said:
You stated that you have a fairly hefty amount of assets. Are they throwing off taxable, tax free or deferred tax income? Are you going to hold the agency REITs in taxable, non-taxable or tax deferred accounts? How you hold affects the deductibility of the interest.

Now, as to spending $1.00 to save $0.30... I see that you wrote you wanted to spend $6,750/yr to earn $45,000/yr (minus the possible tax savings on the $6,750) which looks pretty good. The $45,000, if fully taxable, will also cost you $.30 on the dollar.

So if you couldn't deduct any of the $6,750 and add the approx $13,500 (30%) in taxes that will run $20,250 or 45% of the $45,000 for a net after tax return of $24,750 which is 8.3% on the original $300,000. (I'm ignoring deductibility of the $6,750 which you really have to consider and will be specific to your situation for these numbers)

Of course, the free cash that you have in maturing CDs would have less risk as it's not tied to your HELOC and doesn't have nearly the same carrying cost. The question that I would ask myself is how hard is it to leave $24,750/yr after tax on the table?
Click to expand...

pfleming...assets are throwing off all three, taxable income, tax free income and tax deferred income. Good point on the taxable piece because if I used the Heloc or the CD's that came due today, it would be in a taxable account.

Printed out the annual report on AGNC but have not had time to go thru it. With the supposed new wave of foreclosures coming down the pike (rumor has it the banks are going to dump another round of foreclosures on the market this year) perhaps this is not the time (yet) to buy the Agency Reits.

It's pretty hard to leave $24,750 yearly on the table. In five years, that's over $100,000. On the flip side...there is the risk to NAV.

As I said, the 2 CD's paying 4.5% came due today. Dumped it into a MMA until I can decide.
 
Big Game James said:
Leveraging can be a good thing and it can kick you in the teeth. Personally if you have a good amount of liquidity I'd consider an emerging market. We've all seen what different market sects in China have done and if we haven't would probably hang ourselves when we see what they've made compared to our economy. You have to remember they actually took the torch from us and are running with it. If you didn't already know, I'll have to look at it again - but a few years ago they owned 4X more of our 10yr bond than we did - yes... The same 10yr bond that influences our credit rates and social security. They bought us when we were extremely cheap - although now we're much cheaper with our non-standardized money and our good friend inflation...
Speaking of that emerging market did you know that if you're native Chinese you can walk into any government building and buy silver @ spot!!! at spot!!! They're literally helping people leverage themselves against the mistakes we've made with our money. And yes I understand that Silver has taken some swings.. but compared to a non-collateralized dollar , I'll take the silver any day..

I don't know if you watch Jim Cramer, but a few years ago he was put under a huge fire and all the videos regarding it has been taken off you tube because someone called in and asked about how to make the most profit and not have to deal with the hoopla that's going on in the market right now... He was put under fire because of all the companies that sponsor the show and gave a huge public apology because of what he said and I cant remember the exact words but it was something like this-
If you really want to make money and not have to deal with all the stuff going on here in the US then for the next 5 years invest your money abroad..

CD's in my personal opinion are a poor option for 2 reasons:
1. they don't out pace inflation
2. if they do the tax you pay on them takes you right back under the pace of inflation

so when you look at it the dollar amounts are going up but your financial power is going down. Saving to go poor.. =(

On a really good note though... I know that there's going to be an apex in the RE market directly... it's not going to be anything ridiculous like we just experienced, slow if anything but an awesome opportunity to go long on some assets.

When the rates start to come back up the cost of living will act as a fulcrum to drive the price of the homes down. if you're liquid enough this would be an awesome time to pick up some depreciated assets. I personally know of someone who did this in the 90's (on the flat side of the swing after the late 80's crash) with two 20unit complexes and has been living pretty crisp ever since.. The cool thing is that he did it on the flat side (premature) and even then he's doing pretty well.. He hasn't needed to make a single investment since.. pretty humble guy - I would keep the money train moving and do something cool with it like feed the needy or create financial education programs but that's just me.. =) Good luck with your investing.. I hope you find what works best for you..
Click to expand...

Thanks Big Game James...
I've seen those emerging market YTD returns for last year and this year. Had some in emerging markets but not nearly enough. I remember when Jim Cramer said "move your money abroad".
That APEX you mentioned may very well happen shortly....

CPI was 3.2% last year so......you are right...with CD rates as they are now....one is loosing money. The CD's I have were invested in 2007 and 2008....at anywhere from 4% to 5.5%. I remember feeling hesitant to lock it in for that amount of time....thinking surely...this will be better in 4, 6 and 7 years. Nope.
 
Hamlet said:
Regardless of what Bernake says or does, if the economy sharply improves we have the potential of seeing rates spike pretty quickly.

Remember, he only actually sets short term rates. If long term rates move against these REITs, you could see massive downside in their prices.

I have no idea how likely a large loss is, but it isn't tiny.

Are you ok with a 15% percent chance of a six-figure loss?
Click to expand...

Good point Hamlet...about the long term rates moving against.
 
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