hybrid automobiles

utrecht said:
We just got a new car and in the process looked at lots of other cars. I cant for the life of me, figure out why cars still have Nav. They should be obsolete like an 8 track player. They cost $2000+ and just about everyone has GPS on their phone. Even if you don't you can buy a Garmin for like $100. OK, maybe it more convenient to have it installed in the dashboard, but come on, $2000?
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I agree... really stupid pricing since a number of them already have large screens in them...

But, you do not know what else they do... I used to have an Acura TL... one of the things it did with the NAV was change the HVAC according to where the sun was... IOW, it knew what time of day it was, which way you were heading and which side of the car was getting more sun... it said it compensated for that side.... now, I did not get the NAV so I do not know how much it really did....

BTW, I do not see any difference with the dual zoned (or tri zoned on my Pilot) AC systems... the temp seems to be the same no matter where in the car....
 
Texas Proud said:
....

BTW, I do not see any difference with the dual zoned (or tri zoned on my Pilot) AC systems... the temp seems to be the same no matter where in the car....
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Slightly off-topic, and maybe should go in the pet-peeves thread, but...

I had a much older car with dual zone heat (no AC back then), and I thought it was great. When I was driving, I tended to like the heat on my feet, and cooler at my face to keep me alert. The passenger would generally want it warmer. Driving alone, no real advantage.

But my semi-rant is with all these doo-dads on cars, why doesn't every trim level include a thermostatically controlled HVAC, instead of just turning the knob from hot to cold in an open-loop? Seems you can't get the 'climate control' until you step up $4,000 in trim level (and that may include the Nav system I don't want to pay for). Thermostat control probably costs $15 to implement (The capability is designed in for the top tiers - so just a few added parts to get it).

My low-end Volvo 2000 S40 has a thermostat ad I love it. Once dialed in where I want it, it maintains that temp (yes, I might have to turn the AC up/down if the sun hits me or not). But so much better than tweaking the knob as the temp goes up and down. I really miss that when I'm driving the Honda CR-V - I feel like I'm in the Stone Ages.

-ERD50
 
OK, while we are talking fancy-schmancy features in cars, my son just told me of this.

He brought his car to the Audi dealer for some work, and they gave him a newer loaner for a day. He played with the new digital display, and found that one of the screen displays showed AC refrigerant flow rate! What the heck? He does not have this in his car.

It's cool how they instrument it and have a sensor for it, but what does the driver do with this info?
 
My husband bought a Ford Fusion 2 years ago. We like it. It just seemed like an awfully nice car for the money, too. It is kind of big for my taste, though.

He just got $6000 worth of repairs to it, though, after parking it injudiciously under a eucalyptus tree. It still has its original front bumper and its original passenger side doors and quarterpanels.... It was a big branch.
 
I find it interesting that people site 'lower emissions' as a reason to buy electric/hybrid.

This article 5 Reasons Not to Buy a Hybrid - HowStuffWorks and others point out negative impact hybrids have. Given that the EPA is attempting to shut down coal power plants, and the increase in electric rates, plug-ins may make less since.

As to in-dash gps, we have one, and while I like the directions from Google on the phone better, I normally use the one in the car. I think Audi, and maybe others use Google as their in-dash. I would like that.
 
Rustic23 said:
I find it interesting that people site 'lower emissions' as a reason to buy electric/hybrid.
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Agreed, every time I hear that I recall the car with the lowest tailpipe emissions in the U.S. in 2009 was the Jetta Diesel.
 
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Rustic23 said:
This article 5 Reasons Not to Buy a Hybrid - HowStuffWorks and others point out negative impact hybrids have. Given that the EPA is attempting to shut down coal power plants, and the increase in electric rates, plug-ins may make less since.
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If a person really believes all the reasons listed in the article, then one should not purchase any car at all, normal IC engine, hybrid, plug-in hybrid or all electric. Basically the article, while aimed at hybrids, claims that all current auto power plants are basically bad for the environment. A more appropriate title would be 5 Reasons Not to Buy Any Car.

Bicycle power anybody?

FWIW, every time I see a Leaf with "Zero Emissions" on it, I wonder if the owner thinks the electric power comes down like manna from heaven.
 
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Texas Proud said:
But, you do not know what else they do... I used to have an Acura TL... one of the things it did with the NAV was change the HVAC according to where the sun was...
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Ahh, more integration. The last thing I want is for my heater and AC to stop working because the car's nav system blows a capacitor. I want >less< integration, and less electronics and complexity where it adds little/no value. Knob-->push/pull cable-->mixer door. No servos, sensors, vacuum lines and actuators, etc.
 
Rustic23 said:
I find it interesting that people site 'lower emissions' as a reason to buy electric/hybrid.

This article 5 Reasons Not to Buy a Hybrid - HowStuffWorks and others point out negative impact hybrids have. Given that the EPA is attempting to shut down coal power plants, and the increase in electric rates, plug-ins may make less since.
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I find it interesting that people site articles that are clearly based on misinformation, and lazily try to pass them off as factual.
  • Hybrids still uses gas but less of it so it's just as bad. Seriously?
  • And "the batteries inside hybrid cars depend on materials like lithium and cobalt..." Very few hybrids use LiCo or other LiX traction batteries so far, most including the Prius use NiMH batteries.
But watch out for your mobile devices and laptops, they use those nasty minerals...:cool:

Nickel metal hydride, or lithium ion chemistries are both regarded as more environmentally friendly than lead-based batteries which constitute the bulk of petrol car starter batteries today. There are many types of batteries.

Electric, plug-in hybrid and hybrid (far and away the largest segment) are by no means interchangeable.
 
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utrecht said:
You could get a phone package that gives you so much data that it might as well be unlimited...and for WAY less than the price of the built in NAV system in the car.

There are lots of features on a car that some people want and some dont. My problem with the NAV is that they force you to buy it because cars come with nothing or everything. On most cars if you want a package that includes heated seats or memory seats or whatever else, you are forced to buy every option they sell which always includes the NAV.
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I agree with you about the being forced to buy. It annoys me when I have to buy a feature I don't want to get another feature I do want.

As for data -- maybe you, but not me. With a family plan and 2 kids in college on it, we often do max out our data (we are paying for 10 GB).
 
samclem said:
Ahh, more integration. The last thing I want is for my heater and AC to stop working because the car's nav system blows a capacitor. I want >less< integration, and less electronics and complexity where it adds little/no value. Knob-->push/pull cable-->mixer door. No servos, sensors, vacuum lines and actuators, etc.
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Yup! Electronics seem to break much more often than mechanical items. Most mechanical items are easier to fix, too.

Unlike ERD50, I do not mind "fiddling" with the controls to get the temp I want. In fact, I typically set my AC on "recirculate" and then cycle the AC "on" and "off" manually to keep the temp where I want it. On my old "tank" (the Buick) I have an instantaneous fuel-mileage indicator (it came with the used tank - until it quits, I will enjoy it!). When I'm cruising at 70 on an open road, and cycle the AC "on" the mileage drops by 4mpg. I leave the AC on just long enough to reach a comfortable temp and then shut it off. If possible (and safe) I turn the AC "on" for the down side of the dips and "off" for the upside. Overall, I've confirmed (actual fuel used) I can get at least 2 extra mpg this way.

If possible, bringing this back around to the OP, I'm still excited and fascinated by the new technology (from hybrids to GPS) but my own suggestion would be to find a used vehicle with low miles but good mileage (30+) and wait a while longer on the hybrid. To each his/her own since YMMV.
 
Chuckanut said:
If a person really believes all the reasons listed in the article, then one should not purchase any car at all, normal IC engine, hybrid, plug-in hybrid or all electric. Basically the article, while aimed at hybrids, claims that all current auto power plants are basically bad for the environment. A more appropriate title would be 5 Reasons Not to Buy Any Car....
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That was a pretty twisted article. Some truth to much of it though, but oddly presented.

I have yet to see really good analysis of the environmental impact of the added battery and motor in a hybrid. I've seen some hack pieces. But isn't nothing either.


Bicycle power anybody?
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I recall reading that us humans are poor converters of food to energy. If you look at the energy/pollution used to produce the food we eat to power a bike, they claimed we'd do better driving a mid-sized car.


FWIW, every time I see a Leaf with "Zero Emissions" on it, I wonder if the owner thinks the electric power comes down like manna from heaven.
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Those stickers bug the cr*p out of me. I parked near one a while back, and I was tempted to wait until the person came out, just to ask if they really thought their car was "Zero Emissions". My first thought was to go buy a can of black spray paint and 'correct' it, but I did neither.

-ERD50
 
samclem said:
Ahh, more integration. The last thing I want is for my heater and AC to stop working because the car's nav system blows a capacitor. I want >less< integration, and less electronics and complexity where it adds little/no value. Knob-->push/pull cable-->mixer door. No servos, sensors, vacuum lines and actuators, etc.
Click to expand...


Problem is that the mechanical can break also...

We had a Ford Explorer.... bad car... many problems.... but we are talking HVAC...

So, the AC did not seem to work as well as I would have liked... took it in to make sure the system was full of whatever refrigerant it had... they said yes... but, there was a door behind the dash that had an actuator arm made of plastic... and it broke... the replacement was metal... but it would cost $1200 to take everything out and put everything back in order to replace a $1 item....

There was also a 'rear' AC system... (I only think it was vents, but it did cost money)... well, it had mechanical doors that would open... but someone the screw got messed up and all you would hear is it clicking... it never would stop unless you moved the temp up higher... IIRC, that was going to be an $800 fix...


All systems can have flaws if designed poorly.... or with poor materials...
 
I have a 2008 Honda Civic Hybrid (purchased 12/31/2007), with 199k miles on the odometer. I have been very happy with it, but I did have to replace the hybrid battery early this year, which cost me $2400. In my view, on a purely financial basis, it is worth getting a hybrid if you put many miles on your car (I commute >100 miles per day) and gas is expensive (I live in CT, home of the highest gas prices this side of Hawaii). I am obviously pleased for the sake of the environment that I reduced my gasoline usage and carbon emissions over the past 7.6 years, but it is difficult to put a proper price tag on that.
 
ERD50 said:
... I recall reading that us humans are poor converters of food to energy. If you look at the energy/pollution used to produce the food we eat to power a bike, they claimed we'd do better driving a mid-sized car...
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If the source of energy for a bicyclist is filet mignon, then I can believe it. But if he eats cheap carb like rice or potato, it will cost peanuts (which also has lots of calories).
 
samclem said:
Ahh, more integration. The last thing I want is for my heater and AC to stop working because the car's nav system blows a capacitor. I want >less< integration, and less electronics and complexity where it adds little/no value. Knob-->push/pull cable-->mixer door. No servos, sensors, vacuum lines and actuators, etc.
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+1. I'm a firm believer that technology should either simplify or enrich my life. If it doesn't clearly do either, then it's at best clutter.
 
Texas Proud said:
Problem is that the mechanical can break also...

We had a Ford Explorer.... bad car... many problems.... but we are talking HVAC...

So, the AC did not seem to work as well as I would have liked... took it in to make sure the system was full of whatever refrigerant it had... they said yes... but, there was a door behind the dash that had an actuator arm made of plastic... and it broke... the replacement was metal... but it would cost $1200 to take everything out and put everything back in order to replace a $1 item....

There was also a 'rear' AC system... (I only think it was vents, but it did cost money)... well, it had mechanical doors that would open... but someone the screw got messed up and all you would hear is it clicking... it never would stop unless you moved the temp up higher... IIRC, that was going to be an $800 fix...


All systems can have flaws if designed poorly.... or with poor materials...
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We had a ford explorer with only 1 major problem. The actuator arm on ours broke too. Googled the problem and removed the glove box and drilled a small hole in the actuator arm and cable tied it to the vent door. Fixed the problem and it is still working.
 
NW-Bound said:
If the source of energy for a bicyclist is filet mignon, then I can believe it. But if he eats cheap carb like rice or potato, it will cost peanuts (which also has lots of calories).
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The issue wasn't direct cost, it was environmental impact, probably some measure of the CO2 released in growing the crop, water, fertilizer, etc.

-ERD50
 
homestead said:
We had a ford explorer with only 1 major problem. The actuator arm on ours broke too. Googled the problem and removed the glove box and drilled a small hole in the actuator arm and cable tied it to the vent door. Fixed the problem and it is still working.
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According to the repair shop, you could either have heat or AC but not both if you tied it up... what is your experience?

Do not have it anymore, just curious....
 
Texas Proud said:
According to the repair shop, you could either have heat or AC but not both if you tied it up... what is your experience?

Do not have it anymore, just curious....
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Tied it to the broken part so it worked as normal.
 
homestead said:
Tied it to the broken part so it worked as normal.
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A "tinkerer" can fix most mechanical issues - even if the solution isn't particularly elegant. Saw a couple of shows from Cuba indicating how folks down there keep their 1950s cars going way longer than we keep our 90s cars. Imagine if all those 50's cars had engine computers. For the most part computers in cars either work or they don't. There's no fixing them - only replacing. YMMV
 
Thought provoking thread. There are more junk articles on hybrid car total environmental impact, but this one seems more credible though still not quantitative. http://www.pitt.edu/~crf30/Writing3.pdf

If battery production is relatively bad for the environment, should make us all think about all our battery powered devices, many more today than generations past (mobile devices, laptops, cars, etc.)
 
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Our 2006 (2G) Prius just went past 150K miles. It's a very nice car and we get 45-50 mpg without any special driving techniques. The only maintenance I've done other than oil changes is to replace the auxiliary battery and the HID headlights. We did have a warranty replacement of traction (HV) battery at the 99,500 mile mark. The dealership swapped out the battery pack (at no cost) and gave us a free rental while the battery was being replaced.

If you want to get reliably, comfortably and economically from point A to point B, it's a great choice. If you want excitement, not so good.
 
Midpack said:
Thought provoking thread. There are more junk articles on hybrid car total environmental impact, but this one seems more credible though still not quantitative. http://www.pitt.edu/~crf30/Writing3.pdf
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Yes, that article brings up the issues, but doesn't go into the numbers much. And his claim that the battery must be bad since Toyota offers $200 for an old battery to assure they get recycled is rather specious. If the recycling process is good, then it just makes sense to assure they get recycled (like the $6 core charge we have in IL for lead-acid car batteries).

But there was this:

... A study done by students at the Worcester Polytechnic Institute in 2010 found the break-even points of several vehicles. The Ford Fusion Hybrid would need to be driven for 150,000 miles exclusively in the city before it breaks even. However, if most of the driving were done on the highway, one would need to drive it approximately two million miles [5]. The Ford Escape Hybrid would need to be driven for 200,000 city miles before breaking even and one million highway miles [5].
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Here's the ref, 88 pages, so I have not dug into it yet. But comparisons are complicated, since they will have different kinds of pollutants, it's not a clear apples-apples:

www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-042810-194328/unrestricted/Hybrid_Cars_IQP.pdf


If battery production is relatively bad for the environment, should make us all think about all our battery powered devices, many more today than generations past (mobile devices, laptops, cars, etc.)
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Well, we ought to consider everything that affects the environment. But my laptop battery is ~ 0.040 kWh versus 1.300 kWh for a Prius (~32x), and 4.400 kWh for the Prius plug-in (~110x), and 24 kWh for a Leaf (600x). An iPhone is ~ 0.007 kWh, ~ 1/5th of a laptop battery, so multiply those factors by 5.

Scale is a factor. And while we can consider a standard ICE as an alternative to hybrids and EVs (and the hybrid may still win out overall, depending on these numbers), what is the alternative for people who need to carry a phone or laptop or GPS? I don't think it is meaningful to note that 32 laptops or 160 smart phones equal one Prius, unless there is an alternative.

-ERD50
 
Considering they are selling over 40 million I-phones a quarter I think that they use more batteries than the hybrids....


But, I did not do the math...
 
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