2017 Estimated end of year Distributions for Mutual Funds - some already published

pb4uski said:

Why don't you just look it up?

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ha- thanks for the suggestion, but I tried looking it up on Vanguard as well as searching this forum before posting. Perhaps I missed it, but was unable to find it.

Looking for the dates, not the estimated amounts and would appreciate any dates someone might have.

Looks like 12/19. It took me less than a minute to find it and there was a link earlier in this thread (post #49).

https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/YESTK_122017.pdf

bizlady said:

Does anyone know the date of record that will be used for year end distribution for Wellesley this year?

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12/19 DOR and 12/21 pay date from memory

pb4uski said:

Looks like 12/19. It took me less than a minute to find it and there was a link earlier in this thread (post #49).

https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/YESTK_122017.pdf

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Thank you. I had googled "2017 year end distribution dates" and was only able to find the year end estimates.

bizlady said:

Does anyone know the date of record that will be used for year end distribution for Wellesley this year?

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I just happen to have the page open. The DOR for both Admiral and Investor share classes is 12/15/17. Link is https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/YESTK_122017.pdf.

Looks like the fund is not estimated to distribute CGs this year.

Well from the table posted earlier, I didn't realize there were Institutional shares.

Of course it's not available to individuals but in some cases, the Institutional shares pay out much more than Admiral shares, I noticed.

explanade said:

Well from the table posted earlier, I didn't realize there were Institutional shares.

Of course it's not available to individuals but in some cases, the Institutional shares pay out much more than Admiral shares, I noticed.

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I don't think share prices are comparable between the VG classes (investor, admiral, institutional), so the per share payouts will be different. $10K worth of admiral will be a different number of shares than $10K worth of institutional, so you have to do more math to compare.

RunningBum said:

OK, I did another search and found VG's 2016 year end estimated distributions. The per share amount for Total Intl was net of taxes, so in estimating what will show on 1099-DIV you'll have to factor in foreign taxes on top of the three quarters already distributed, plus the estimated 4th quarter. Just as people said here.


Also, these really are just estimates. VTIAX estimated $.20 per share, and was actually $.209. VTSAX was estimated at $.32, but the actual was $.354 per share. The latter seems like a surprising amount off. At this point in the year I wouldn't expect any new dividend declarations announced with increases that still take place this year.


I guess it's just a matter of staying well away from any cliffs until after dividends are all distributed, and even then you have to conservatively guess how much is added in international fund dividends in the form of foreign taxes paid. I'd promise not to do the Roth conversion horse race again if they'd let me do small recharacterizations to not fall over the ledge.

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I have a new Flagship rep assigned and he encouraged contact, so I went ahead and asked him the question. He verified that the year end estimates are net of foreign taxes, and said he could not find any estimates for the foreign tax rate. Of course I can use previous years', but those vary.

He also cautioned that the estimates were just that, estimates.

So, with recharacterizations going away, those of us converting to the top of 0% LTCGs (may not be the same as top of 15% bracket next year), or more importantly, to the top of the ACA cliff, we're going to have to wait until distributions come out in mid/late December, then for international funds tack on an estimate for foreign taxes. There's no correcting an overage so you have to leave some buffer. My advice is to practice and learn this year, even if you just do it on paper.

I'm also encouraged that my new Flagship rep understood my question and answered it fully, rather than just cutting and pasting something from the estimates page that didn't really apply.

I am a little put off that they can't give me the foreign tax rate. After all, what gets distributed to me is the dividends issues by the corporations, net of taxes, so therefore it seems like they would know how much they took out in taxes to net out the distribution. Unless somehow the taxes are taken out before Vanguard sees them, and they get reported to VG later in time for them to issue the 1099s.

RunningBum said:

So, with recharacterizations going away...

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Is this a done deal for the 2017 tax year? I thought it was still up in the air.

RunningBum said:

My advice is to practice and learn this year, even if you just do it on paper.

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Yep. Between potential loss of recharacterizations and net neutrality I'm having a bad week with the Feds

Trooper said:

Is this a done deal for the 2017 tax year? I thought it was still up in the air.

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I don't know the current status for tax year 2017, or whether it's even a done deal for beyond that. As of now I'm planning on not having it available for 2017 just in case.

One of my mutual funds had a share split. How weird is that? 1:1.0537

It's supposedly to get shares from different classes of the same fund closer to each other (or something like that).

At least it's not taxable.

Trooper said:

Is this a done deal for the 2017 tax year? I thought it was still up in the air. ....

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It is a matter of interpretation. The bill prohibits recharacterazations for "taxable years beginning after December 31, 2017".

View A is that since a 2018 recharacterization of a 2017 Roth conversion reduces the 2017 Roth conversion in the taxpayer's 2017 tax return that it doesn't relate to "taxable years beginning after December 31, 2017" and is allowable... IOW, the key thing is the tax year that the recharacterization adjusts rather than when the conversion is done.

View B is that after December 31, 2017 one cannot do a Roth recharacterization and the key is the date that the recharacterization is done, not the tax year the recharacterization impacts.

I think View A makes more sense and that the term "taxable year" was put in there purposefully.... but it could be that custodians decide not to take a chance on the wording and just go with the most conservative interpretation... View B... since they can't get into any trouble with that interpretation.

Found some more on recharacterizations... they amended it to allow recharacterizations of contributions but not of conversions... no additional clarity on how it will impact potential recharacterizations of 2017 Roth conversions as described above.

The conference agreement follows the House bill and the Senate amendment with a modification. Under the provision, the special rule that allows a contribution to one type of IRA to be recharacterized as a contribution to the other type of IRA does not apply to a conversion contribution to a Roth IRA. Thus, recharacterization cannot be used to unwind a Roth conversion. However, recharacterization is still permitted with respect to other contributions. For example, an individual may make a contribution for a year to a Roth IRA and, before the due date for the individual’s income tax return for that year, recharacterize it as a contribution to a traditional IRA.277

Effective date.−The provision is effective for taxable years beginning after December 31, 2017

277 In addition, an individual may still make a contribution to a traditional IRA and convert the traditional IRA to a Roth IRA, but the provision precludes the individual from later unwinding the conversion through a recharacterization.

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Thanks pb4uski. To add to the confusion, I called Vanguard to see if I could transact my 2017 conversion online and was told I had to do it over the phone. The reason: I recharacterized a portion of my 2016 conversion in March of 2017. Not sure why that matters.

Trooper said:

Thanks pb4uski. To add to the confusion, I called Vanguard to see if I could transact my 2017 conversion online and was told I had to do it over the phone. The reason: I recharacterized a portion of my 2016 conversion in March of 2017. Not sure why that matters.

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That doesn't sound right. Just go ahead and do what you want online. Phone reps are hit and miss.

Trooper said:

Thanks pb4uski. To add to the confusion, I called Vanguard to see if I could transact my 2017 conversion online and was told I had to do it over the phone. The reason: I recharacterized a portion of my 2016 conversion in March of 2017. Not sure why that matters.

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My impression is that you can't re-convert that March 2017 recharacerization until 2018. Perhaps the phone part is just to confirm that you are converting other funds

Trooper said:

Thanks pb4uski. To add to the confusion, I called Vanguard to see if I could transact my 2017 conversion online and was told I had to do it over the phone. The reason: I recharacterized a portion of my 2016 conversion in March of 2017. Not sure why that matters.

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43210 said:

That doesn't sound right. Just go ahead and do what you want online. Phone reps are hit and miss.

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Yes, VG can be a bit screwy that way. I recall one year where in February I recharacterized a PY conversion and in December went to do the CY conversion and couldn't do it online and then called and the rep told me that I couldn't do a conversion for that year since I had done a recharacterization earlier in the year.... they were totally wrong and misinterpreting their own documents... I had to escalate it to my former Flagship rep who was pretty good and understood the situation and was able to sort it out.

That Flagship rep moved on and I have a new guy... the jury is out on him but it isn't looking good so far.

43210 said:

That doesn't sound right. Just go ahead and do what you want online. Phone reps are hit and miss.

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I tried to convert online while on the phone with VG's "retirement specialist", to whom I was referred by my Flagship advisor. Vanguard's website would not allow me to do it; I received an error message indicating I had already recharacterized in 2017. The retirement specialist told me to call them when I'm ready to convert - apparently they can override the error.

https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plan...cterization-of-roth-rollovers-and-conversions

"Is there a minimum waiting period to reconvert the money to a Roth IRA following a recharacterization?

Yes, if you recharacterize all or part of a rollover or conversion to a Roth IRA, you cannot reconvert the amount recharacterized to the same or another Roth IRA until the later of:

30 days after the recharacterization, or
the year following the year of the rollover or conversion.
The waiting period to convert applies only to amounts you recharacterized. For example, you can convert amounts from a different traditional IRA to a Roth IRA immediately."

I believe I've read that you can also convert from the same TIRA if you can show they are not the same $$$ you recharacterized (e.g. you have enough $$
in there to cover both conversions). Perhaps VG is just trying to save folks from making the error of doing the 2nd converson too soon.

From Ed Shott:

You can reconvert the assets you have recharacterized, but not right away. You have to wait until the year following the conversion or more than 30 days after the recharacterization, whichever comes later. Essentially, you can only convert the same assets once in a year.

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Yes, so if one recharacterized a portion of their 2016 Roth conversion on April 1, 2017, then the amount recharacterized could be reconverted anytime after May 1, 2017.

30 days after the recharaterization is May 1, 2017 and the year following the converision which would be January 1, 2017 and May 1 is the later of the two.

pb4uski said:

From Ed Shott:


Yes, so if one recharacterized a portion of their 2016 Roth conversion on April 1, 2017, then the amount recharacterized could be reconverted anytime after May 1, 2017.

30 days after the recharaterization is May 1, 2017 and the year following the converision which would be January 1, 2017 and May 1 is the later of the two.

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Thanks for the clarification........somehow my degenerating brain wasn't paying attention to conversion yr ; for some reason was thinking same as recharacterization yr.

pb4uski said:

It is a matter of interpretation. The bill prohibits recharacterazations for "taxable years beginning after December 31, 2017".

View A is that since a 2018 recharacterization of a 2017 Roth conversion reduces the 2017 Roth conversion in the taxpayer's 2017 tax return that it doesn't relate to "taxable years beginning after December 31, 2017" and is allowable... IOW, the key thing is the tax year that the recharacterization adjusts rather than when the conversion is done.

View B is that after December 31, 2017 one cannot do a Roth recharacterization and the key is the date that the recharacterization is done, not the tax year the recharacterization impacts.

I think View A makes more sense and that the term "taxable year" was put in there purposefully.... but it could be that custodians decide not to take a chance on the wording and just go with the most conservative interpretation... View B... since they can't get into any trouble with that interpretation.

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Update: Kitces and I agree on this one.... in his blog post on the new law he says:

Fortunately, though, the new limit on Roth recharacterizations applies only for taxable years beginning after 12/31 of 2017 (i.e., the 2018 tax year and beyond). Which means existing already-completed 2017 Roth conversions should still be eligible to recharacterize in 2018 (since it would be recharacterizing a conversion for the 2017 tax year, while the new rules only apply in the 2018-and-beyond tax years). Although notably, the timing of the effective date for 2018 recharacterizations of 2017 conversion (i.e., whether they will be permitted or not) is still being debated by many tax commentators.

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VG total stock and total international are posted today, and both came in higher than estimated. As pb4 posted earlier, don't forget that this is the distributions into your account, and the actual taxable dividend will be increased by the foreign taxes paid on total international, whatever those may be. I'm figuring about 7% more.