Interesting Times in Wisconsin..........

[ls99]

Ditto on large class sizes 45 to60. My case grade 1 through 8. Minus the nuns. Grew up in communist occupied country. Corporal punishment was the norm. The ruler ruled, as did the laying of the hands, with speed and force upside the head, at times with clenched fists. Complaints to parents resulted in more laying of the hands.

In class at all times, unless taking notes we were to sit straight up, with hands behind back. Made for great posture, and easy ID of slackers and sleepy heads.

When called upon, must stand up and give the answer. Keep standing until told to sit down. Made for a very quiet classroom uninterrupted by graba$$.

Failure to abide, brought forth the aforementioned laying of hands, if egregious transgression, the meter long ruler was judiciously applied to various body parts.

Learning was expected, the answer given had to be in the assertive mode, unlike I see in the US where the answers are prefaced with ...Is it XYZ and the teacher affirms or modifies the answer to make it right.

In short no sympathy for teachers whining about class size. They do have my sympathy for being denied the right to enforce discipline, or the right to dump unruly little bugger out of the class, nay out of the school. Social promotion truly is a bad thing.

By the way from 3d grade on, Russian was a required language (reading, speaking and grammar) in addition to the native, in 7th grade one more foreign language was required, but was elective.

 

[youbet]

It's too bad that the children of generations past did whatever they did to nuns and lay teachers at Catholic schools. People no longer want to do that kind of work and Catholic schools are dropping by the wayside.........

 

[haha]

Also a Catholic school alum for grades 1 through 5--all classes had 60 kids in them, you could hear a pin drop at any moment, and I don't remember any nun ever having to discipline anyone.

Either we were bad kids, or our nuns were early feminists out to make the world safe for girls and women by means of eradicating the male sex. I got detention so often that I learned to go out the window and down a drainpipe in order to get home in time to play at all.

I think different orders or even different convents produced different strains of religious, much like different media are more hospitable to different strains of E. Coli.

Ha

 

[Bestwifeever]

Ha I was such a good girl that I probably didn't notice the boys being pulled out by their ears to visit Sister Superior (who taught my 4th grade class, too) and Monsignor. I actually went to three different schools in five grades, all in different blue-collar Maryland suburbs.

 

[haha]

Ha I was such a good girl that I probably didn't notice the boys being pulled out by their ears to visit Sister Superior (who taught my 4th grade class, too) and Monsignor. I actually went to three different schools in five grades, all in different blue-collar Maryland suburbs.

Maybe so Bestwife, but you did note that ear part. Left hand had us by the ear, right hand had a rod- truly a rod, as a flat ruler didn't hurt enough.

It did not have the intended effect on me, every atrocity just hardened my resolve to prevail. But I admit that I was happy to get out of there finally- I think 8th grade graduation may have been my experience of a more or less permanent uptick in base happiness.

I was able to coast through my first couple years of public high school, but then I went to a good magnet school with high standards and had to get going for real. University was another great leap forward, being much harder again, but also much more interesting.

Ha

 

[youbet]

The school districts already were given warning on the loss of state aid. The communities where these Republican senators come from are fiscally conervative areas. Both senator's wives are not 20 year+ employees, one went back to work after raising kids, not sure about the other......

So the senator's wives (teachers) are being laid off because they are not 20 year+ teachers? FD, you may be picking up some BS with your gossip antenna and unknowingly passing it on as "fact."

You should watch those stories and see if the two ladies are indeed laid off or if there is just some BS being spread around. I'm sure if 2 teachers who are wives of Republican State Senators are laid off as a result of the recently passed legislation, it'll make the press.

 

[Mulligan]

These are classic stories! Expectation to learn + discipline = education!
If I told my students in school now these stories they would refuse to believe that stuff ever happened. I've had some kids who never heard of the word "paddling" before.

 

[youbet]

Probably so, but what's the "magic number" here? When I was in elementary school (1970-77), we usually averaged around 30 pupils, sometimes as low as around 25 or 26 and sometimes as high as about 33-34. A lot of focus today is on keeping class sizes in the low 20s.

In Chicago, the average class size is 28 with the school board intending to increase it to above 30. See ERD50's post above. I bet it's similar there in central Texas. Doesn't sound like much has changed since you were in elementary school (1970 - 77).

Where are you getting this "low 20s" you're throwing out?

 

[missionfinder]

Having been to both public and Catholic schools... the Catholic schools had higher standards, didn't put up with crap and they were far more willing to spend time with you if you needed help, and not only call parents but work to get them involved when a student was having difficulty. Sometimes they could be mean... but the results were better. I was an average student in the Catholic schools, classified as "gifted" in the public schools. The amount of money per student was far lower than the public schools yet the results better.

Big issue I see these days is everyone else's public schools suck, but yours don't. Or "my public schools rank high". High against what, other public schools? That's like saying my Yugo is a more reliable car than most Yugos! How is it that we throw more and more money at schools and get poorer results? This trend was happening long before No Child Left Behind, so I take it with a grain of salt when I hear teachers blame that.

 

[ERD50]

Well, at least one member (besides me) saw some humor in that. Lots of talk of overpaid, obstinate teachers/unions, and classroom size not correlated with achievement, so I thought that sounded so good that you guys might want to volunteer for a super-sized, market-determined salaried, teaching position...

Just tugging your leash. No reason to get thongs in a bunch.

It's all right. I just wasn't sure how much "joke" was there, and how much "substance behind the joke" you were shooting for/at.

And on a serious note, to break down your response a bit...

Lots of talk of overpaid, obstinate teachers/unions, and classroom size not correlated with achievement,

There's aways someone talking up some extremes (on all sides). I could reference some of the most ludicrous things that have been said on the union side, by "lots of" people, but it's just talk, and I'm not going to bother.

As a point of order, I don't think I've ever said teachers are overpaid or underpaid (and I've joined in many threads/posts on the subject), but I do think their pay ought to be open up to the free market. It's likely that the best teachers would be paid more than now, and at any rate, it should quell any serious discussion of whether they are over/under-paid, because they would be paid what the market will bear.

I have said that the unions are obstinate, because that is my personal experience. In our district, they put their [-]needs[/-] wants before the kids and before the taxpayers - would not even consider talking about a temporary wage freeze (not a cut) after years of raises above what most of those paying their bills have seen. It was either a temporary wage freeze, or cut classes that the kids wanted to take. So the kids suffered, and some non-tenured teachers (some of them undoubtedly excellent educators) suffered (were cut, since some classes were cut). In some cases, tenured teachers were kept on to teach classes that they technically qualified for, but were probably not as good at it as those with less seniority who were teaching those classes. But that is how the seniority system worked.

I don't see any way to spin that in a positive light - care to take a shot at it?

As far as class sizes, it seems reasonable to research this and try to find out what works under given budget constraints. I think we should take an educated look (pun intended), rather than just jump at some number or defend the status quo.

Looking back at recent posts:

Geez, I guess I'm going to have to ask Mom what our classes sizes were. I remember looong rows of desks with one penguin (Blues Brothers was the first time I heard that!) and no assistant. That's not to say that class size would work today in a public school, it is a different environment.

-ERD50

 

[youbet]

As a point of order, I don't think I've ever said teachers are overpaid or underpaid (and I've joined in many threads/posts on the subject), but I do think their pay ought to be open up to the free market. It's likely that the best teachers would be paid more than now

We've discussed this before and I certainly agree with you. Teachers should negotiate their own salaries with the school districts. And any constraints keeping teachers from freely moving from district to district to harvest the best pay and benefits should be eliminated. Any hint of colusion between districts to outlaw pirating teachers from one district to the other should be met with severe legal penalities. (No hand shake agreements between school districts to not steal talent from one another.) With that type of enforced open market, pay would indeed sort itself out with districts being able to pay less for teachers in areas with over-supply and paying dearly for the best teachers in hard to staff areas.

I have said that the unions are obstinate,

And that isn't just teacher's unions. I've worked with several industrial unions and it's the same thing.

In our district, they put their [-]needs[/-] wants before the kids and before the taxpayers - would not even consider talking about a temporary wage freeze (not a cut) after years of raises above what most of those paying their bills have seen. It was either a temporary wage freeze, or cut classes that the kids wanted to take. So the kids suffered, and some non-tenured teachers (some of them undoubtedly excellent educators) suffered (were cut, since some classes were cut). In some cases, tenured teachers were kept on to teach classes that they technically qualified for, but were probably not as good at it as those with less seniority who were teaching those classes. But that is how the seniority system worked.

I don't see any way to spin that in a positive light - care to take a shot at it?

You and your school board have no balls. Freeze the wages. Take the strike. Win. School districts do it all the time. It sounds like your school board was afraid of shaking up things (perhaps leading to a lot of turnover or whatever) and caved. You can't do that. Have you let your school board know you think they're weenies and you'll be running for a seat next election? You're exactly the kind of person that needs to be on school boards.

As far as class sizes, it seems reasonable to research this and try to find out what works under given budget constraints. I think we should take an educated look (pun intended), rather than just jump at some number or defend the status quo.

Looking back at recent posts:

Geez, I guess I'm going to have to ask Mom what our classes sizes were. I remember looong rows of desks with one penguin (Blues Brothers was the first time I heard that!) and no assistant. That's not to say that class size would work today in a public school, it is a different environment.

Given what you said about researching class size above, I'm surprised you went on to talk about remembering looong rows of desks with one penguin. Is there a Catholic school in your neighborhood you could send your kids to instead of subjecting them to the inferiority of a public education? No point screwing your kids on education just to save a few bucks (very few). I think all of us parents have learned that coming up with a few grand is simple compared to trying to straighten out your kids later.

 

[misanman]

Up through grade 4 we had K-6 in one room with one teacher - probably about 40 kids altogether. It was a public school and I think I learned a lot - sometimes I was invited to participate with a higher grades lessons, which helped keep it interesting.

 

[HFWR]

I don't see any way to spin that in a positive light - care to take a shot at it?

-ERD50

I can't offer much a defense for unions...

I'd prefer the unions and the government pull on their big girl panties and deal. I think the governor has overplayed his hand, and this animosity won't end just because the majority decided to pass this legislation, because they could. We seen how well that works in Washington. Health care bill anyone...

 

[FinanceDude]

So the senator's wives (teachers) are being laid off because they are not 20 year+ teachers? FD, you may be picking up some BS with your gossip antenna and unknowingly passing it on as "fact."

You should watch those stories and see if the two ladies are indeed laid off or if there is just some BS being spread around. I'm sure if 2 teachers who are wives of Republican State Senators are laid off as a result of the recently passed legislation, it'll make the press.

I told you, Wisconsin is stranger than fiction..........read for yourself......

Senate leader Fitzgerald's wife gets layoff notice

 

[ERD50]

You're exactly the kind of person that needs to be on school boards.

Actually, I'm not (for a variety of reasons), but I've read the other thread and I could work in a support mode for those on the board - I need to look into that.

Given what you said about researching class size above, I'm surprised you went on to talk about remembering looong rows of desks with one penguin. Is there a Catholic school in your neighborhood you could send your kids to instead of subjecting them to the inferiority of a public education?

I'm not convinced that our kids public education is/was inferior to the local parochial schools. Plenty of successful students coming out of each of them. All I'm saying is that we should apply some reasoning to class sizes. I don't know what the "right" size is, and like most things, I'd think that 'it depends' on many factors.

-ERD50

 

[youbet]

I told you, Wisconsin is stranger than fiction..........read for yourself......

Senate leader Fitzgerald's wife gets layoff notice

OK, that's a start. But, as you well know, a preliminary layoff notice does not equal being laid off. In Ms. Fitzgerald's school dist, ALL teachers were given preliminary lay off notices! This is just a legal move that superintendents make so that when actual lay off time comes, they can not possibly have missed giving preliminary notice to the actual victims since they gave notice to everybody. (My DW got these at least half the years of her 35 yr teaching career and was never actually laid off.)

So, keep watching and see if Fitzgerald actually gets laid off. As of now, she hasn't been. Nor has the other Republican senator's wife. Actual lay off notices will be delivered at the end of the school year to none or a few of the teachers who received preliminary lay off notices.

Among those receiving preliminary layoff notices this week is the wife of Republican Senate Majority leader Scott Fitzgerald, R-Juneau. Lisa Fitzgerald is a counselor in the Hustisford School District.
Hustisford Superintendent Jeremy Biehl says the school board decided Wednesday night to send preliminary layoff slips to all 34 members of the teaching staff, including librarians and counselors.

Edit: You are correct that "Wisconsin is stranger than fiction!"

 

[youbet]

I'm not convinced that our kids public education is/was inferior to the local parochial schools. Plenty of successful students coming out of each of them.

You're likely correct. I think that generally the suburban Chicago public school systems do a decent job. There's significant variation, of course, usually corresponding to the wealth of the suburb. And sometimes memories of parochial schools get a little romanticized because of the loyalty factor. Still, when I compare notes with buddies who went to St Pat's, St Viators, Driscoll Catholic or Notre Dame while I went to a Chicago Public High School, it's clear they were given an advantage I wasn't. I did, however, learn to roll a pack of Luckies up in my tee shirt sleeve and wear my hair in a DA while they were screwing around with lame academic endeavors.

 

[ziggy29]

I'm not convinced that our kids public education is/was inferior to the local parochial schools. Plenty of successful students coming out of each of them. All I'm saying is that we should apply some reasoning to class sizes. I don't know what the "right" size is, and like most things, I'd think that 'it depends' on many factors.

School performance is far more dependent on parental involvement, engagement and emphasizing of education than any other factor, IMO. Take a school in a place where too many parents are either absent, whacked on drugs, indifferent or too busy working three jobs to be engaged in their kid's education and I'll almost certainly show you a bad school regardless of how much money we throw at it.

To the extent private schools "work better" than public schools, I'll bet the vast majority of the reason is that the parents are a self-selecting sample of parents who are strongly engaged and give a damn about how their kids are doing.

 

[FinanceDude]

OK, that's a start. But, as you well know, a preliminary layoff notice does not equal being laid off. In Ms. Fitzgerald's school dist, ALL teachers were given preliminary lay off notices! This is just a legal move that superintendents make so that when actual lay off time comes, they can not possibly have missed giving preliminary notice to the actual victims since they gave notice to everybody. (My DW got these at least half the years of her 35 yr teaching career and was never actually laid off.)

So, keep watching and see if Fitzgerald actually gets laid off. As of now, she hasn't been. Nor has the other Republican senator's wife. Actual lay off notices will be delivered at the end of the school year to none or a few of the teachers who received preliminary lay off notices.

We'll see.....but it took some brass ones on his part to vote for a bill that could put his wife out of work................wonder how comfy the couch is these days for him?

 

[FinanceDude]

School performance is far more dependent on parental involvement, engagement and emphasizing of education than any other factor, IMO. Take a school in a place where too many parents are either absent, whacked on drugs, indifferent or too busy working three jobs to be engaged in their kid's education and I'll almost certainly show you a bad school regardless of how much money we throw at it.

98% graduation rate in my hometown, and 50% for MPS schools as a whole, closest MPS school is 8 miles away. Our HS allows 85 spots for School Choice kids out of a HS of 1428 kids. Every year, there are about 250 kids vying for those 85 spots. Most of them come from MPS schools, the parents drive them to school and the kids are pretty much all very good students, the majority of them are minorities......

To the extent private schools "work better" than public schools, I'll bet the vast majority of the reason is that the parents are a self-selecting sample of parents who are strongly engaged and give a damn about how their kids are doing.

Yeah, when mom and dad are forking out $6,000 on the low end and $20,000 on the high end, PER YEAR, for their kid to go to a private school, you can bet Mom and Dad are on Little Johnny like a fly on a No-Pest Strip!!!

 

[ls99]

These are classic stories! Expectation to learn + discipline = education!
If I told my students in school now these stories they would refuse to believe that stuff ever happened. I've had some kids who never heard of the word "paddling" before.

Don't know where you are. If within an hour's drive of my home, I'll provide, in my thickly accented English, first hand account and practical examples to your class. Free.

Starting with... everyone in the class stands to attention when the teacher steps into the classroom. It goes downhill from there.

 

[HFWR]

Don't know where you are. If within an hour's drive of my home, I'll provide, in my thickly accented English, first hand account and practical examples to your class. Free.

Starting with... everyone in the class stands to attention when the teacher steps into the classroom. It goes downhill from there.

Glad I'm not in school anymore... I was fairly familiar with "the board of education".

 

[missionfinder]

Glad I'm not in school anymore... I was fairly familiar with "the board of education".

X2. Ours was wooden and had holes drilled through it so you could hear the "whoosh" as it was moving towards your backside! One time I knew beforehand I was going to a "board meeting" and wore 3 pairs of underwear. First whack they caught on and sent me to the bathroom with the coach who made sure I removed the extra underwear. Then, I got an extra whack for my ingenious plan!

 

[FinanceDude]

Never got paddled. However, my 5th grade teacher threw me up against the lockers when I smarted off to him. A little while later I found out he was a grunt and did 2 tours as infantry in Vietnam as a platoon leader..........that was the end of my rebellion in class..........

 

[youbet]

We'll see.....but it took some brass ones on his part to vote for a bill that could put his wife out of work................wonder how comfy the couch is these days for him?

Which bill are you referring to? The bill which reduced union bargaining rights had nothing to do with these preliminary lay off notices. The preliminary lay off notices where due to budget issues. Did he also sign a bill which reduced school funding? I thought they were still arm wrestling over that since they don't have a quorum without the Dem senators.

BTW, there has been no "bill" in Illinois, yet we're having large numbers of teacher layoffs as well. That is, we had large numbers of layoffs last June and it's projected there will be additonal layoffs this June. The layoffs are being driven by reduced tax revenues both in local property taxes and in state income taxes.

I think in Wis, the current anticipation of layoffs (the issuance of preliminary layoff notices) is due to current revenue issues. The govenor pushed the bill reducing union bargaining power in anticipation of future reduced state funding which will result in additional layoffs. He wants the local school boards and county and municipal employers to have increased flexibility in handling the budget cut backs with minimal union resistance.

It's really quite different than the assumption that the recently passed bill reducing union bargaining rights is leading the anticipated public sector layoffs (including possibly Ms Fitzgerald). These layoffs are budget driven and would have happened without the union bill.

The portion of the bill which was stripped off would have mandated that public employees pay more for their health insurance and pensions. That would tend to reduce layoffs, not cause them. Money public employers don't have to pay for these benefits would be available to retain employees that might otherwise have been laid off.

Sorry for trying to drill through to the facts, but this whole deal has been fraught with over-reactions, first by the unions and now by people responding to their demonstrations and exaggerated commentary.