Family Issue

I was intrigued by the TOD option. I took a look at the form on my brokerage account. It could well be the thing to do specifically with my inheritance from my parents. A previous poster mentioned that it's possible estranged child has no idea how much we have. Quite true. Another said that he may not even want anything from us. Don't bet on it. There's not a doubt in my mind he (at the wife's goading) will be front and center to be sure he gets his assumed share.
So, what is there to keep a child from knowing what the value of an estate is other than a zipped lip?
 
I was intrigued by the TOD option. I took a look at the form on my brokerage account. It could well be the thing to do specifically with my inheritance from my parents. A previous poster mentioned that it's possible estranged child has no idea how much we have. Quite true. Another said that he may not even want anything from us. Don't bet on it. There's not a doubt in my mind he (at the wife's goading) will be front and center to be sure he gets his assumed share.
So, what is there to keep a child from knowing what the value of an estate is other than a zipped lip?

I have the same understanding of TOD. It sounds like your best first option, particularly for the inheritance.

A trust will have reporting implications. For example, if one spouse dies and the trust activates, you have to send a copy of it to all parties. That may cause a copy of the trust to go to the "bad guys" while one spouse is still alive. On the other hand, trusts don't have to report everything as publicly as wills, which may limit their knowledge of the estate's value. Hopefully your attorney can navigate those problems.
 
And why do you think a trust is safer:confused: It can be challenged just like a will.... even after you die...

Trusts do hold up much better in court.

With a will, all parties that are excluded, but would normally inherit based on the states default rules, must be notified by the executor/trustee, that they are excluded. And they usually receive a copy of the will as part of this notification. Laws may vary based on your state of residence. When my great aunt died, my grandmother received a copy of the will from the law firm handling the estate for just this reason. She had to sign some things stating that she would not contest. Wills beg you to contest them. Will go through probate, trusts do not. So the mechanism for challenging wills is set up and ready to go.

With a trust, notifications like that do not occur. The left out party should know nothing about it unless it holds something like property that they already know about and they start asking questions. If it's just money and liquid assets that are not public knowledge, I doubt any legal issues would even come up, because no one would know to raise them. One major reason trusts are used is to keep things private.
 
I understand entirely why you would not want to leave equally and I think it is also entirely your decision.

You mentioned borderline personality disorder and I don't know if you mean an actual diagnosis. If you do, then this is a genuine mental disorder so that would weigh on my somewhat and I could see leaving a smaller amount to this child or leaving a smaller amount to the grandchildren on that side (or even half if you want).

All of that said, I would strongly recommend that you see a good estate estate attorney in your state regarding your options.
 
I was intrigued by the TOD option. I took a look at the form on my brokerage account. It could well be the thing to do specifically with my inheritance from my parents. A previous poster mentioned that it's possible estranged child has no idea how much we have. Quite true. Another said that he may not even want anything from us. Don't bet on it. There's not a doubt in my mind he (at the wife's goading) will be front and center to be sure he gets his assumed share.
So, what is there to keep a child from knowing what the value of an estate is other than a zipped lip?

A revocable living trust is a private matter. Its holdings pass outside your will. Others can not access information about its value.

Take care, however, if some one is mentioned in the trust or will they are entitled to a copy but not a listing of its holdings. [State laws may vary.]

Have you considered setting up an education account (Cloverdale ESA) for each of your grandchildren? You are the owner of the account, I think you can make the trustworthy son the owner should you pass before it is used (preventing the one son from converting it). If they are in college, or have completed college (or trade school) you could set up a trust whose assets are disbursed to the extent that your grandchildren bring proof of outstanding/paid school loans at your passing. The remainder in the trust could be directed to be spent on higher education for the great-grandchildren. Might take some fancy lawyer writing but at least you are passing your parents $ mindful of the adage that it is better to teach a person to fish that give them fish.
 
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I was intrigued by the TOD option. I took a look at the form on my brokerage account. It could well be the thing to do specifically with my inheritance from my parents.

I had a big battle over this in a probated estate for a sibling. The brokerage TOD was challenged in court. Also on bank accts titled the same way. Biggest help was time, make sure you title these accounts early so the intent can't be questioned as a "last minute choice". Surprisingly in my case, having a lawyer witness and fax over beneficiary paperwork was called into question. Legal statements from the brokerage were interpreted that faxing wasn't considered the correct delivery process. They brought up hand delivering the papers as a battle issue.

I should mention my will has a clause that any party (beneficiary or otherwise) that chooses to contest will be treated as predeceasing me, so they get nothing.
 
Fire'd and LoneAspen are right on. Start gifting money NOW to the good child and his/her spouse. No one has to know.

It doesn't always go this way. A "secret" gift rarely stays as secret as you plan. If you do decide to do something like this, consider what will happen when word gets out, as it most likely will. If you had bad will between siblings before, this will likely make it worse.
 
Not trying to hijack the thread, I just have to get this off my chest...

I think it's criminal that people cannot stipulate in their wills or trusts what they want to happen to THEIR money when they die, and not have it contested.

...

I understand where you are coming from, but there are cases where someone was manipulated and/or coerced by an evil relative or 'friend' into making changes to a will. If there was no method to contest a will, there would be no recourse.

It's tough to leave an opening for those cases, and not leave it open to other issues. Hopefully, the courts do the right thing.

-ERD50
 
I am in awe of the knowledge of those giving definitive advice. A family therapist, who knew directly everyone involved would likely be much more careful and very probably refrain from giving any suggestions.

We are certainly polymaths.

Ha
 
I am in awe of the knowledge of those giving definitive advice. A family therapist, who knew directly everyone involved would likely be much more careful and very probably refrain from giving any suggestions. We are certainly polymaths. Ha

Well, she did ask, and she thanks people in the thread, so hopefully she found some value in the responses.
 
Trusts do hold up much better in court.

With a will, all parties that are excluded, but would normally inherit based on the states default rules, must be notified by the executor/trustee, that they are excluded. And they usually receive a copy of the will as part of this notification. Laws may vary based on your state of residence. When my great aunt died, my grandmother received a copy of the will from the law firm handling the estate for just this reason. She had to sign some things stating that she would not contest. Wills beg you to contest them. Will go through probate, trusts do not. So the mechanism for challenging wills is set up and ready to go.

With a trust, notifications like that do not occur. The left out party should know nothing about it unless it holds something like property that they already know about and they start asking questions. If it's just money and liquid assets that are not public knowledge, I doubt any legal issues would even come up, because no one would know to raise them. One major reason trusts are used is to keep things private.



The exclusion part is why some put in a minor bequest... which means they are not excluded....


I wonder how many wills are contested and how often the person wins.... id doubt many are and I would be willing to bet that a vast majority of the ones that are contested are upheld....


Also, as an comment on other posts.... doesn't an asset that passes by a TOD get excluded from the estate.... even reporting it to the court:confused:
 
Well, she did ask, and she thanks people in the thread, so hopefully she found some value in the responses.

I have found value in what has been said. I am more aware of my options. I appreciate the input and feel better informed.
Most people keep quiet about such family issues. I guess there's a sense of failure or shame on the parents part. However, I learned in my previous occupation that situations like ours are, sadly, far too common. I've talked with other parents who have a difficult child and their heartache. I've just never approached the very personal and unique issue of estate planning concerning how things will be dispersed. This forum offered the more anonymous venue ;-).
 
Family situation such as you describe are indeed very common. My older sister managed 457 accounts and has some stories to tell, some funny, many of them tragic in the outcome.

People get downright weird about money sometimes.
 
The exclusion part is why some put in a minor bequest... which means they are not excluded....


I wonder how many wills are contested and how often the person wins.... id doubt many are and I would be willing to bet that a vast majority of the ones that are contested are upheld....


Also, as an comment on other posts.... doesn't an asset that passes by a TOD get excluded from the estate.... even reporting it to the court:confused:

If you include someone in the will in a minor way, you are making them aware of the will and the conditions of the will. If they get $5K and another sibling gets $500K. They might have a reason to be upset and a reason to consider contesting. Sometimes people try to leave the party enough in the hopes that said party will consider letting it go to get the money faster. It really depends on the type of person we are talking about. A NORP (normal ordinary reasonable person) will respect the conditions of the will in most cases. The person that contests is probably not a NORP. You have to decide what kind of person you are dealing with to determine the appropriate actions to take with your estate.

Very few wills are actually contested. Less than 1% the last time I spoke with an estate attorney. You have to have a party that feels wronged, thinks something was improper with the will or is very desperate to attempt to contest. Fighting a will is not cost free for either side. Most often, all the person contesting accomplishes, is delaying the probate process, reducing the size of the estate and creating a rift in the family.

Google will bring up many sites that discuss this in more detail. e.g. Contested wills on the rise | London and Watford based solicitors | Matthew Arnold & Baldwin

Contesting a Will, Inheritance - Will Cost - AARP Bulletin

Contesting wills

TOD does operate outside of probate. But just like a trust it can be subject to a legal challenge. And it doesn't have the same privacy protections as a trust. If I move a house from myself to my son via a trust upon my death, there is no transfer of ownership. The trust actually owns the house, both before and after my death. With TOD, there will be a public record indicating the transfer occurred. This public record is freely available on the county website to any who choose to look. With a trust is just harder to get the details. There is probably nothing you can do that is iron-clad. All you are doing is increasing your odds. Even gifting the money a few years before your death is subject to legal challenge.
 
doesn't an asset that passes by a TOD get excluded from the estate.... even reporting it to the court:confused:

TOD assets are treated just like beneficiary designated assets and will be excluded. The reporting of assets is done by the executor and TOD/POD/beneficiary assets wouldn't be reported. A separate party can contest the TOD designation, bring it to the court's attention and try to make a claim to the assets. When there's money to be had, pretty much anything can be stated and challenged in court. It's up to the accused to disprove the claims.
 
Well, she did ask, and she thanks people in the thread, so hopefully she found some value in the responses.
You are certainly correct about these things. Nevertheless, it amazes me. There has to be a back story somewhere, perhaps it was given, perhaps I missed it as I didn't closely read the thread. I try to imagine how quickly I could come up with a plan were I in this situation, and knowing what a parent in this situation might typically know, and I realize that I would have trouble trying to decide how to proceed. I would consult several experts, who themselves would very likely feel hard pressed to give suggestions.

Knotty situation all around.

Ha
 
Ha,

Have to agree 100%, pros at family issues wouldn't be so quick with solutions, myself included.

I applaud the OP for having the courage to seek answers to a difficult situation.

MRG
 
TOD assets are treated just like beneficiary designated assets and will be excluded. The reporting of assets is done by the executor and TOD/POD/beneficiary assets wouldn't be reported. A separate party can contest the TOD designation, bring it to the court's attention and try to make a claim to the assets. When there's money to be had, pretty much anything can be stated and challenged in court. It's up to the accused to disprove the claims.
The executor would have to know about the TOD assets to determine if state or federal taxes are due. In fact in the worst case the executor could claw them back if needed to pay the taxes. However they do not show up on inventories filed with the court.
 
The executor would have to know about the TOD assets to determine if state or federal taxes are due.

I'm referring to the probate process and you wouldn't bring this into the inventory for probate assets. The majority of estates don't even need to worry about taxes due.

In fact in the worst case the executor could claw them back if needed to pay the taxes. However they do not show up on inventories filed with the court.

Executors can't claw any money back, they can bring it to the court's attention and the judge would need to rule on it. Getting a judgement and collecting the money are completely separate issues.

However they do not show up on inventories filed with the court.

Isn't this the same thing I wrote?
TOD/POD/beneficiary assets wouldn't be reported.
 
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Family situation such as you describe are indeed very common. My older sister managed 457 accounts and has some stories to tell, some funny, many of them tragic in the outcome. People get downright weird about money sometimes.

I'd love to hear some of those stories. I thought the one I shared about the two brothers who tried to get what little funds their mentally incompetent mom had and said the state could take care of her. Ahhhhh family love and concern.
 
To the OP, I'm sorry that your own child has treated you like this. All I can say is that as I have learned more about human behavior and psychology over the years from personal experiences, I understand that virtually every family has issues. Have no qualms with treating them just as they have treated you, and set up your estate accordingly. However, double check and make sure everything is as lock tight as possible, because money can make people to strange things. And even larger sums can make them do even stranger things.

My quandary- the thought of one dime of my parents money going to and being spent by someone who holds us all in disdain riles me up. Am I being vindictive or prudent to have set up my will to give half the estate to our close child and the other half divided among the grandchildren (who we don't even know?).

One thing to keep in mind (which I didn't see other posts mention) is that if you do leave money to the grandchildren of the estranged child, that could create a host of issues. Would the money go outright to the grandchildren in one lump sum if they are minors? If so, the estranged son/DIL would undoubtedly wring their hands around it and do who-knows-what with it, and could use the excuse that it was for the benefit of the grandchildren.

If you create a trust to hold the grandchildrens' funds until a certain age, then the estranged child could challenge/contest it on a number of grounds. If you allow the trust to disperse money "for the benefit of the grandchildren", then estranged child would likely use a number of excuses to get money withdrawn from the trust...."for the grandchildren's benefit".

Perhaps one way is a way my grandparents used - if you are going to purchase savings bonds for yourself anyway, put grandchildren's names on them as either co-owners or beneficiaries. Then, you can instruct the 'good child' to not mention the existence of hte savings bonds until the grandchildren are of legal age (perhaps a little older and more mature, say 25?). That way, estranged child has no way of getting their hands on the savings bonds that would legally be in the name of the grandchildren at that point.

I know you said you were living off of the dividends of your portfolio, so this may be a somewhat limited way of dividing up your estate.

Money can be a very frustrating thing - my own father tried to screw my siblings and I out of our share of my grandmother's estate with a stash of cash in a safe deposit box (my grandfather was old-school, and lost money in a bank in 1929 when he was a young 11 year old paperboy). My father thought no one knew what was in the box, but luckily, my grandmother entrusted me with all of her investments and holdings several years before her death, and I took an inventory of the box with her a while back.

After grandmother's death, my dad went over her assets to disperse. Someone asked about the existence of a safe deposit box at a certain bank (the one w/ the cash, but no one else knew what was in it). Dad said "it just had a few papers" and quickly changed the subject. The safe deposit box was asked about again later on by another sibling, and after dad again said "it had nothing in it", I said "BS, it had about $50k!", to which he quickly said "no, it only had about $10k".

All of my siblings have an unhealthy, fearful relationship with my dad, so no one bothered to bring him to task about insisting it had "just a few papers" to suddenly admitting it had $10k (it actually held $40k in cash, as my memory was just a little fuzzy). I can only assume that my dad hoped no one would ask about the safe deposit box, and he would simply take the cash as his own and put it in his own safe deposit box.
 
Forgiveness can be very powerful, both for the grantor and the recipient. This can even be more powerful from "beyond the grave." Your actions will say a lot about you.

Think about it.
 
You are certainly correct about these things. Nevertheless, it amazes me. There has to be a back story somewhere, perhaps it was given, perhaps I missed it as I didn't closely read the thread. I try to imagine how quickly I could come up with a plan were I in this situation, and knowing what a parent in this situation might typically know, and I realize that I would have trouble trying to decide how to proceed. I would consult several experts, who themselves would very likely feel hard pressed to give suggestions.

Knotty situation all around.

Ha


Ha,

I think that people are giving opinions to the OP based on what they went through or have seen... as for any advice given, it is the reader who has to put any weight to those suggestions... I do not see this being that much different than a lot of the other posts who ask for advice on investing, paying off a mortgage, moving money from a 401 to an IRA etc. etc.... some are more fact based than others, but all have to be viewed as they are... some rambling of an unknown person on the internet....
 
Money can be a very frustrating thing - my own father tried to screw my siblings and I out of our share of my grandmother's estate with a stash of cash in a safe deposit box (my grandfather was old-school, and lost money in a bank in 1929 when he was a young 11 year old paperboy). My father thought no one knew what was in the box, but luckily, my grandmother entrusted me with all of her investments and holdings several years before her death, and I took an inventory of the box with her a while back. After grandmother's death, my dad went over her assets to disperse. Someone asked about the existence of a safe deposit box at a certain bank (the one w/ the cash, but no one else knew what was in it). Dad said "it just had a few papers" and quickly changed the subject. The safe deposit box was asked about again later on by another sibling, and after dad again said "it had nothing in it", I said "BS, it had about $50k!", to which he quickly said "no, it only had about $10k". All of my siblings have an unhealthy, fearful relationship with my dad, so no one bothered to bring him to task about insisting it had "just a few papers" to suddenly admitting it had $10k (it actually held $40k in cash, as my memory was just a little fuzzy). I can only assume that my dad hoped no one would ask about the safe deposit box, and he would simply take the cash as his own and put it in his own safe deposit box.

Sounds like old dad was quite the character :-}. Glad your grandmother trusted you and went over her holdings with you!
 
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