United Airlines Roughed Up Passenger to Give Up His Seat

[ERD50]

They move on to the next person after saying "we're going to notify police at the destination and have you arrested after you de-plane" or "we're going to notify TSA and you'll be unable to fly again until you appear in court to answer for your actions".

That might work, at least there are consequences.

But to be honest, I would not feel comfortable, and I don't think the flight crew would/should either, with being on a flight with someone who has just demonstrated that he will not follow rules and will not obey direct orders by the flight crew. That's not a good situation to be in at 40,000 feet, no thanks.

-ERD50

 

[bUU]

Maybe a cop (or former cop), or someone else who is invested in the wave of authoritarianism that seems to be sweeping the country ?

Is there some reason why you prefer attacking the character of posters rather than replying on the issues?

But to be honest, I would not feel comfortable, and I don't think the flight crew would/should either, with being on a flight with someone who has just demonstrated that he will not follow rules and will not obey direct orders by the flight crew. That's not a good situation to be in at 40,000 feet, no thanks.

Precisely. The passenger may have had all the benefits stacked up in his favor up until the moment he refused to deplane.

 

[Texas Proud]

Okay at least we agree on UA created/started the problem.

A few years back my son was bullied by another kid (the other kid started the problem), he fought back and both my son and the other kid got suspended by the vice principle. To me he has every right to fight back. But to you he should just bites his lips and cry alone.

That is in the eye of the beholder... the school rules are they are not supposed to fight back... so he broke the school rules...

Now, when my son fought back he got a ticket for fighting... we had to go to court to fight the ticket... I could care less that my son got suspension for the fight, but I was a bit outraged they tried to make him a criminal... BTW, we had a video that the other guy was trying to start the fight and actually charged my son, but my son got the first punch in... so they were saying it was mutual combatants....

 

[samclem]

But to be honest, I would not feel comfortable, and I don't think the flight crew would/should either, with being on a flight with someone who has just demonstrated that he will not follow rules and will not obey direct orders by the flight crew. That's not a good situation to be in at 40,000 feet, no thanks.

-ERD50

+1. It would be very irresponsible for the crew to knowingly take off with a belligerent passenger who has already proven he will not comply with the directions of the crew.
Once locked in that aluminum tube and airborne, there's no external authority that can do anything to enforce the rules and protect passengers. The folks in that plane are, in some ways, self-policing, and to leave the ground with this guy aboard is unfair to the other passengers and potentially unsafe.

 

[ivinsfan]

Maybe a cop (or former cop), or someone else who is invested in the wave of authoritarianism that seems to be sweeping the country ?

Really, do you want to be flying in an airplane where you aren't sure you is in charge? Maybe they are just "invested" in a safe flying experience.

 

[Chuckanut]

That might work, at least there are consequences.

But to be honest, I would not feel comfortable, and I don't think the flight crew would/should either, with being on a flight with someone who has just demonstrated that he will not follow rules and will not obey direct orders by the flight crew. That's not a good situation to be in at 40,000 feet, no thanks.

-ERD50

Agreed.

United may not have handled this well, but that does not make the passenger involved a saint.

 

[redduck]

A little bit of common sense and salesmanship would've helped too.

"Folks, we randomly picked a doctor who simply can't be bumped, so we're going to draw again. You aren't all doctors, right? But first, one more chance for a volunteer..."

I'm a doctor! I'm a doctor!, I'm a doctor!

I'm Spartacus! I'm Spartacus! I'm Spartacus!

https://youtu.be/FKCmyiljKo0

 

[ivinsfan]

+1. It would be very irresponsible for the crew to knowingly take off with a belligerent passenger who has already proven he will not comply with the directions of the crew.
Once locked in that aluminum tube and airborne, there's no external authority that can do anything to enforce the rules and protect passengers. The folks in that plane are, in some ways, self-policing, and to leave the ground with this guy aboard is unfair to the other passengers and potentially unsafe.

I agree with this and once the situation escalated there were not going to be any "winners"...for all the crew knew the guy would keep ranting and raving until landing...

 

[RunningBum]

That might work, at least there are consequences.

But to be honest, I would not feel comfortable, and I don't think the flight crew would/should either, with being on a flight with someone who has just demonstrated that he will not follow rules and will not obey direct orders by the flight crew. That's not a good situation to be in at 40,000 feet, no thanks.

-ERD50

Now you're onto something. United should be making that point, that it was a very unfortunate situation but ultimately it come down to someone who refused to comply with crew and law enforcement orders, and he had to be removed from the plane. Instead they are just sticking with "they followed procedures." And I still say it absolutely should not have gotten to that point.

 

[RunningBum]

I'm a doctor! I'm a doctor!, I'm a doctor!

I'm Spartacus! I'm Spartacus! I'm Spartacus!

https://youtu.be/FKCmyiljKo0

Yeah, I know, that's a risk, but you can make people show some kind of proof.

 

[Dawg52]

I would say I'm going to boycott United but I haven't flown in 15 years or so. Maybe I will fly to see if I can pick up some of this bumping money I read about. Ha.

 

[misanman]

From reading about the "doctor's" background it sounds like he had some possible issues:

"Dr. Dao 'lacked the foundation to navigate difficult situations, both interpersonally and in a complex profession'.
...noted a need to control, avoidance, withholding information and 'magical thinking' as problematic."

This may help explain why he acted as he did.

 

[Meadbh]

Apparently there is a bumping algorithm that puts passengers travelling with discounted tickets high on the list. Something for our frugal LBYM travellers here to bear in mind. If you are retired and don't have a connection to meet, it might be a good deal. If you really don't want to be bumped, you might have to pay more.

The last time I flew United was returning from Maui to LA in 2013. They had overbooked the plane by 15 seats and issued multiple calls for volunteers to wait in the departure lounge. I had two connecting flights, so it would have been inconvenient, and had decided to volunteer if the incentive went to $1000. That was my price point. As it happened, they got the volunteers they wanted at the $800 level. The flight was horrible. I was at the back, penned in a very cramped seat by the window and couldn't get to the bathroom because the couple between me and the aisle were dead drunk.

 

[bUU]

Now you're onto something. United should be making that point, that it was a very unfortunate situation but ultimately it come down to someone who refused to comply with crew and law enforcement orders, and he had to be removed from the plane.

You're assuming that the mob, once whipped into a frenzy by FUD they read on Facebook and Twitter, is capable of reason.

 

[mystang52]

[disclaimer: even though DW and I live close to Newark Airport, a major United hub, we will not fly United for reasons unrelated to this thread]

Imagine an alternate universe where the plane just took off, and then those 4 United employees showed up. They wouldn't make the plane return. Similarly, if the plane had gotten to the taxi area, they would not have called the plane back.
Once all the passengers were boarded, it is simply not right that they eject 4 passengers for those late-arriving employees. No different than if I arrive late for a flight - it's my loss. UA may have been legally in the right, but their arrogance precipitated everything that ensued.
I don't condone the doctor's actions, but I hold UA predominantly culpable here, bare bones minimum on an ethical level.

 

[Bestwifeever]

That's not really 'volunteering' then. That's coercion by the guy creating the disturbance. Big difference in my book.

You would have had your chance to volunteer at the $800 or whatever.


-ERD50

Meh, it wouldn't be the first time I'd been coerced. Not that I mind a good coercion. And all the passengers would have applauded as I got my carryon out of the bin and the gate agent would have thanked me profusely and Oscar Muñoz would have sent me flowers. I should fly more often, really. United is a share partner for my flight next week to the British Isles--cross my fingers that we are overbooked!

 

[ERD50]

Apparently there is a bumping algorithm that puts passengers travelling with discounted tickets high on the list. Something for our frugal LBYM travellers here to bear in mind. If you are retired and don't have a connection to meet, it might be a good deal. If you really don't want to be bumped, you might have to pay more. ...

Yes, but we don't know what other people paid, airline pricing is an enigma. You might have to pay a LOT to feel confident you aren't in the bottom tier?

I'm curious (and sorry if I missed it if already posted), do we have nay numbers of how often people are involuntarily bumped (w/o incident like this)? Is it rare, common, or?

-ERD50

 

[FIREmenow]

This is analogous to many of the political issues of the day in my mind. The law is the law. Rules are rules.

As a society/country you follow the rules/law. Period.

If you don't like the law/rules, you get them changed. You don't impede/violate them to make your point, no matter the situation. Deal with emotional/character/empathy/recrimination after the fact.

 

[tfudtuckerpucker]

Yes, but we don't know what other people paid, airline pricing is an enigma. You might have to pay a LOT to feel confident you aren't in the bottom tier?

I'm curious (and sorry if I missed it if already posted), do we have nay numbers of how often people are involuntarily bumped (w/o incident like this)? Is it rare, common, or?

-ERD50

I saw an estimate of 40,000
Few Protections to Avoid Getting Bumped From Overbooking | NBC New York

 

[RustyShackleford]

This is analogous to many of the political issues of the day in my mind. The law is the law. Rules are rules.

As a society/country you follow the rules/law. Period.

If you don't like the law/rules, you get them changed. You don't impede/violate them to make your point, no matter the situation. Deal with emotional/character/empathy/recrimination after the fact.

Good lord.

Glad the founding fathers didn't think this way.
Glad Rosa Parks didn't think this way.
Wish Germans in the mid-20th century hadn't thought this way.

 

[Midpack]

Why does it matter whether it is "volunteering" or not, the point is, that $800 might not have been enough for anyone to volunteer previously, but after witnessing the situation, perhaps some people would have been open to another appeal. Plane would have taken off, everyone satisfied, the Dr might have received a ****-eye from some of the other passengers. Case closed.
Why not try?

They tried to get volunteers up to the reg max and weren't successful. I am sure most if not everyone on the plane knew they needed volunteers to give up their seats, and people nearby heard the two officers asking the man to deplane, and the ensuing disturbance. If we're all such good Samaritans, why didn't someone step up and volunteer at any point along the way? Or the doctor could have asked those within earshot. Why not try?

A bad situation all around, but UA and aviation police did what they were supposed to do, within the regs. And 10's of thousands of people give up their seats voluntarily or involuntarily every year without incident. Maybe there have been others like this exact example, though I don't remember it. How were they to know this guy was going to force the issue at all costs? At some point, they have no choice but to end the standoff.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing...so many "solutions" here defy what UA had any reason to expect to transpire.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Good lord.

Glad the founding fathers didn't think this way.
Glad Rosa Parks didn't think this way.
Wish Germans in the mid-20th century hadn't thought this way.

Nelson Mandela, Ghandi, the French resistance - the historical list of people who broke laws and are now considered heroes is pretty endless. Well behaved women (and men, too) rarely make history.

 

[bUU]

I'm curious (and sorry if I missed it if already posted), do we have nay numbers of how often people are involuntarily bumped (w/o incident like this)? Is it rare, common,

My earlier recollection which I posted in this thread (or perhaps it was the thread on another forum) was "hundreds a year" among the 3.6 billion passengers. Here's the official number:

In 2016, U.S. airlines posted a bumping rate of 0.62 per 10,000 passengers, the lowest annual rate since 1995, according to the U.S. Department of Transportation’s Bureau of Transportation Statistics. Delta Air Lines had 1,238 involuntarily bumped passengers in 2016, a rate of 0.1 per 10,000 passengers. That was the second-best rate among U.S. airlines.

United passenger dragged from flight raises questions on airline bumping | AJC@ATL​

So I think I was pretty close to accurate earlier.

Good lord.

Glad the founding fathers didn't think this way.
Glad Rosa Parks didn't think this way.
Wish Germans in the mid-20th century hadn't thought this way.

Enough with the off-target over-exhortation. This passenger wasn't standing on principle. He just didn't want to be personally inconvenienced and felt that he didn't need to comply with the rules that another couple complied with.

And if you insist that this was a moral fight against oppression, then I'll say it again: Gandhi went to jail, peacefully. He didn't claim exemption from the consequences of his actions. He didn't demonize those who took him into custody nor the guards who kept him in custody. He invited the consequences he incurred because he felt it would give him an opportunity to draw attention to what he felt was injustice.

Nelson Mandela, Ghandi, the French resistance - the historical list of people who broke laws and are now considered heroes is pretty endless.

Thanks for proving my point. Mandela also went to jail for his values, and many members of the French resistance sacrificed their lives.

So either this is a moral fight, in which case arresting the passenger was 100% appropriate, or it was the passenger being selfish, in which case arresting the passenger was 100% appropriate. Which do you prefer?

 

[tinlizzy]

This reminds me of a story from years ago when Oprah arrived at an inn (in Vermont I think) late in the evening or early morning and wanted all of the rooms for herself, her dogs and entourage. After some negotiation and a change in hotel policy about pets, the owners rousted all the guests from bed and kicked them out!

 

[FIREmenow]

Glad Rosa Parks didn't think this way.

On the contrary, per bUU's post(s) above, Rosa Parks and other objectors thought exactly this way. They broke the rules on purpose, didn't put up any resistance, and their heroism got the rules changed. (Sane) People realized the insanity of the rules based on these objections.

As soon as you change laws from black and white, to grey, you have problems.