Thoughts on TESLA
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Ready
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It turns out DH did provide a reference code from a friend of ours. So I guess his picture will now be orbiting outer space for the next million years or so.
+2. With a plug-in hybrid that has a battery range of 40 miles, I could probably do 80% of my miles without burning gasoline (and they'd be in-town stop-and-go lines where an ICE engine might be less efficient than on the open road). More importantly, I'd be (far) more likely to use most/all of those 40 miles/day if I knew there was no real down side to going over--the ICE just starts up and I can go as far as I want.
The battery capacity from 40 miles to 300 miles would be of very marginal use to me (might be different for other folks)--it would just (sorta) enable a "pure" electric car to be a (crummy) long-range car that makes me stop for a long time at an inconvenient place to recharge. It makes much more sense to use those batteries for 5 other plug-in hybrid cars, and give us each a cheaper, more flexible small ICE range extender that virtually eliminates range anxiety. And we can run the heat and AC if we need to, get out of town if there's a hurricane/ice storm, etc.
Ready
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If a Tesla was just another run rate sedan with a big battery they would not be selling many cars. DH is a very low tech, resistant to change type who couldn’t imagine why we would ever want to own a Tesla. He insisted he only wanted to drive a traditional ICE car. After his accident last week I insisted he at least test drive a Tesla before heading to the Toyota showroom for another Prius. One test drive was all it took for him to buy one on the spot. If he can be sold on a Tesla, that’s saying something.
ERD50
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Yep. And I think there is a good chance that upcoming improvements to the ICE could mean we will have 'plug in hybrids' that you may never want to plug in. HCCI and maybe 2 stroke opposed pistons, coupled with hybrid technology may produce less pollution on gasoline than running on grid electricity.
What was it that he liked about it, compared to comparably priced cars that he test drove?
-ERD50
bobandsherry
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With GM, Ford and Fiat all saying adios to the sedan for the most part in the near future, have to wonder if Tesla is out of touch with consumer demands with focus on 3 and X.
ERD50
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Since they seem to be selling everything they make, I don't see that as an issue. In fact, maybe it helps them, they pick up the sedan market?
Production and margin are their big challenges right now I think, maybe funding - I guess we'll see how that goes in a few months?
-ERD50
brucethebroker
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"Only" two decades left? Sounds like a "lifetime guarantee" to me....
Even though it only has 20 miles of battery range, I love my plug-in hybrid. That's enough to handle many of my routine errands around town. I also like being able to switch between modes (with just a tap on the screen) so I can save the battery for city driving and use the ICE on the highway where it's more efficient. Of course, like any hybrid there is also the regeneration capability. When I was out west in the mountains, I got a kick out of seeing mile after mile of battery range pile up while going down some of the long hills in the Rockies.
Well, there is the cost. At my residential electricity rates, a battery mile costs less than half what a gasoline mile costs.
JoeWras
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Hi Ready. What are you doing for charging at home? Do you need any electrical work?
bobandsherry
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The SUV market typically has higher margins. And Tesla is pushing to produce more sedans but at a lower price point just to continue to increase sales, and therefore they are driving their margins lower, perhaps way too low. So focusing demand on producing sedans would seem to be working against them. But maybe you are right and they'll continue to pick up the sedan market and be happy with thin margins.
The "enabling technology" will be smart metering. A plug-in hybrid is a superbly flexible consumer of electricity, and a way to offload the problem of storing electricity to consumers in a very advantageous way (payback for the batteries is quick). If I can plug in at home or in town and just get electricity when there's a true surplus of wind or solar electricity on the grid (or produced at my home), then it really is cleaner than an ICE. But if that doesn't happen and the available electricity at home is expensive or dirty for a night or a week, then my car won't buy any and I'll use gasoline (or diesel, or whatever the ICE is set up to burn).
If we get enough of these cars there will be some genuine market incentive to install more solar and wind capacity where it makes sense. It helps put liquid fuels and electricity into competition (to a limited degree). "Pure" electric cars don't have this same impact, because their need for electricity is less flexible: if you want to drive the car, you have to buy electricity--and maybe you'll have to buy it when coal plants are making the juice.
>Someday< people will care about the price of gasoline again!
ERD50
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Yep, those are all the reasons I think plug-in-style (remember, you don't have to ever plug them in) will be a large part of the future market.
Coupled with a high efficiency ICE, that electric drive provides a lot of flexibility. They could allow the engine to start and warm up disconnected from the wheels, and load it with the generator at an optimum profile to reduce pollution during warm-up (when a large % of the pollution is generated). In a non-plug-in-style, that engine needs to do whatever you tell it to while it is warming up. And a 20 mile range means short trips can be made w/o starting the engine at all - so fewer warm up cycles.
Originally Posted by ERD50
Yep. And I think there is a good chance that upcoming improvements to the ICE could mean we will have 'plug in hybrids' that you may never want to plug in.
Well, there is the cost. At my residential electricity rates, a battery mile costs less than half what a gasoline mile costs.
Yes, but if future hybrids get 50 mpg, that's 4 cents/mile @ $2.00 gas, 8 cents @ $4 gas. At ~ 330 wH/mile, at national average of 11 cent/ kWh, that's ~ 3.6 cents a mile. Cheaper, but only a $44 annual savings @ 12,000 miles and $2 gas, but a more significant $524 savings @ $4 gas.
-ERD50
Ready
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The immediate acceleration of an electric vehicle was very noticeable to him. And the enhanced auto pilot was a lot easier to use than he thought it would be. He was always complaining that the Prius had a blind spot on the right side and he had a hard time knowing if a car was in his blind spot when needing to make a right turn. The Tesla is far more advanced than any other car we looked at in safety technology. And it’s more fun to drive than a BMW 3 Series, which is pretty amazing.
People who own a Tesla describe is as an IPhone on wheels. It’s continually being updated with new software, which I believe helps with resale value since the car is always getting better. I think you just have to test drive one and see for yourself if it’s for you, but it’s definitely very different from any other car he’s previously driven. And the $10K in federal and state rebates/credits was very attractive.
Ready
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I have an electrician coming on Thursday. The labor charge is $675. And, I bought the Tesla Wall connector for $500. The wall connector is optional, but it charges the car faster and it’s much easier to use, and it lets me keep the mobile cord in the car for long distance trips without having to unplug it and pack it up each time I need it.
Friend took his T to MN last winter. Couldn't get it to start at -20. Even took a trickle battery 1hr to get the T's batteries to the point they would start. Distance on a charge greatly reduced.
So when they ban ICE's in 20 years, suppose people in MN won't have drivable cars in winter.
So when they ban ICE's in 20 years, suppose people in MN won't have drivable cars in winter.
ERD50
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OK, thanks. Earlier, you mentioned that he was comparing to a Prius, which look to be about $20,000 less than the current Model 3's, so yes, I sure hope he was impressed by the Tesla!
I sure hope this "shames" all other car manufacturers into providing updates. I don't even care (maybe don't even want) it to be automatic. I'm fine with download to a flash drive and install. But not getting updates w/o going into a dealer, and likely paying is just very weird in this day and age.
I'll have a chance to test drive my friend's soon. I'm sure I'll be impressed, but I'm just not in the market for that type of vehicle (EV or not).
Your welcome!
Seriously, though of course I have no issue with people using that credit, I just see absolutely no reason the rest of us should be financing someone else's car purchase, especially an upscale car. It really does boil my blood.
Regardless, enjoy your (our?) new purchase!
-ERD50
ERD50
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Forgot to comment on this, but it seems kinda funny that a Prius owner, considering another Prius, would be concerned about ' immediate acceleration'!
-ERD50
ERD50
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I'm not buying it. A car battery is the most expensive type of storage you can buy, since it needs to be mobile, safe, etc. And given even minor, occasional range issues for some people, why would they want to give up some of their range to the grid. It could be drawn down just when they need it (which is not always predictable - like getting stuck in traffic).
And dialy charge/discharge is going to cut into the lifespan of that expensive mobile battery. So by the time yo use conservative figures for the cars that would allow this, you are not talking much storage at all. And there are likely cheaper ways to get it.
Sounds attractive on the surface, but as I've said before - we would need a LOT of surplus to have it available regularly enough to make much of a dent in the added EV demand. And then you will run into the same issue - when you have enough surplus to charge them fairly regularly, you will then have many days with an even larger surplus ( a surplus of surplus?). So wind/solar gets expensive when you produce power you can't sell.
-ERD50
kcowan
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I hope it does not slow down when a new model is released!
JoeWras
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OK. That's not too bad.
I do wonder about the future when EVs are mandated. There is going to be real pain for a lot of people in older homes with substandard electrical services. Heck, I had a 200 amp service, but needed a new panel when I got upgraded A/C. There just wasn't any breaker room left. And of course, some installations will be difficult and require trenching outside, etc.
And what about all the apartments?
Interesting times ahead.
No, I didn't say the car battery would be used as you've described. Every bit of energy stored in the car battery would eventually be used to turn the wheels of the car--just as designed. The car is a flexible >consumer< of electricity: Buy electricity if it makes sense, don't buy it when it doesn't make sense ($$ or environmentally--hopefully that choice is left to the consumer). Having the ICE on board allows you to be a more discerning consumer.Originally Posted by samclem
The "enabling technology" will be smart metering. A plug-in hybrid is a superbly flexible consumer of electricity, and a way to offload the problem of storing electricity to consumers in a very advantageous way (payback for the batteries is quick). ....
I'm not buying it. A car battery is the most expensive type of storage you can buy, since it needs to be mobile, safe, etc. And given even minor, occasional range issues for some people, why would they want to give up some of their range to the grid. It could be drawn down just when they need it (which is not always predictable - like getting stuck in traffic).
Ready
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I really like the idea of never having to visit a gas station again. The car has a 310 mile range and we very rarely take long distance trips, so I don’t ever see a need to charge the car away from home.
And, the car has no required service other than tire rotation and changing the brake fluid every 2 years. So much fewer trips to the service center than my Lexus requires. Every time I do a routine 5,000 mile maintenance on the Lexus I spend at least $300, and once it get to around 15,000 it seems to run closer to $1,000. Over many years that really begins to add up compared to the Tesla.
And, the car has no required service other than tire rotation and changing the brake fluid every 2 years. So much fewer trips to the service center than my Lexus requires. Every time I do a routine 5,000 mile maintenance on the Lexus I spend at least $300, and once it get to around 15,000 it seems to run closer to $1,000. Over many years that really begins to add up compared to the Tesla.
Got passed by a lady in a red Tesla yesterday, like Ricky Bobby said" I have to admit, I got a little chubby". She as behind me on the freeway, and we both moved over at the same to pass a slower truck. She jumped over a second lane and flew past me. What a great looking car.
You do like to change the subject, don't you?
I wasn't talking about future hybrids; I was talking about my car.
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