Mr. Money Mustache Divorce Blog Post

[Sunset]

Well, he's got the other half so he could do the same thing!

No he couldn't as then the blog would fall due his being a traitor to the LWBYM (Live Way Below Your Means).

 

[deserat]

Or...may be she found a new lover...as is most often the case

Or him - takes two to tango and gender doesn't necessarily engender fidelity to one's spouse.

 

[badatmath]

Another reason to leave the workplace lol

No kidding. Trying to hang on for retiree health insurance. . .

 

[dvalley]

Or him - takes two to tango and gender doesn't necessarily engender fidelity to one's spouse.

True but most divorces are initiated by women and most have the replacements lined up well before doing so. Most men are blindsided, things can get pretty bad and most men will hang in there especially after years of being married to someone. In any case, if you read between the lines of his blog post you can sorta see he was dealt the card.

 

[Teacher Terry]

Yes women initiate more divorces because men are too lazy to take action). However, most don’t have another partner waiting. It is painful for both people.

 

[Aerides]

True but most divorces are initiated by women and most have the replacements lined up well before doing so. Most men are blindsided, things can get pretty bad and most men will hang in there especially after years of being married to someone. In any case, if you read between the lines of his blog post you can sorta see he was dealt the card.

I didn't read anything between any lines that hinted at infidelity on either side.

Where are you getting these statistics about "most" women? Of myself and many friends whom I know divorced, a "replacement lined up" has never been the case. Not one. More focused on extricating ourselves and starting fresh, with the least impacts to children and worried about how they would finance their new lives...

 

[Calico]

Or...may be she found a new lover...as is most often the case

From his divorce blog post:

We are both doing well in new relationships and supportive of the other’s success in that important aspect of moving on.

 

[Aerides]

That doesn't mean that either of them started before the end of their marriage... it's been many months, probably a year given all the gossip, since they separated.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, I find all this idle speculation into someone else's personal life so unseemly.

 

[Calico]

That doesn't mean that either of them started before the end of their marriage... it's been many months, probably a year given all the gossip, since they separated.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, I find all this idle speculation into someone else's personal life so unseemly.

I took it to mean the exact opposite - that they both moved on after the divorce and thus are supportive of each other's relationships.

 

[clifp]

Hey, he did give up the Leaf. No credit for that one?


So? Sure, lets assume his LBYM lifestyle contributed to his divorce. Does it matter? Or that they spent too much time together?

That's just noise. I'm sure there are a lot of reasons his relationship didn't work out, LBYM, being a blog celebrity, etc, may have been a factor. More likely is that his spouse and him were on a different page for lots of reasons and drifted apart. People change. It happens.

No, it wouldn't if hadn't portrayed himself as the "father of the FIRE movement", with lots of 20 and 30s something attempting to follow in his footsteps. MMM, along with many of us have portrayed early retirement as great thing, a goal worth the numerous sacrifices associate with living well below your means.

But if one of the risks associated with early retirement, is would it increase my chance of divorcee, that's something I'd like to know if I was a 20 something, contemplating this lifestyle. Especially, if I was more enthusiastic than my significant other.

The discussion on this board and MMM doesn't seem to suggest that it makes a big difference.

 

[Denverite]

I didn't read anything between any lines that hinted at infidelity on either side.

Where are you getting these statistics about "most" women? Of myself and many friends whom I know divorced, a "replacement lined up" has never been the case. Not one. More focused on extricating ourselves and starting fresh, with the least impacts to children and worried about how they would finance their new lives...

I'd agree about the "replacement lined up" point. However, I've seen multiple studies/articles stating that women initiate a divorce more frequently than men, such as:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...omen-initiate-divorce-much-more-men-heres-why

https://www.divorcemag.com/blog/why-do-women-initiate-divorce-more-than-men/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...y-to-initiate-divorce/?utm_term=.55a0a6e4f162

https://www.divorcesource.com/blog/why-women-file-80-percent-of-divorces/

 

[ivinsfan]

No, it wouldn't if hadn't portrayed himself as the "father of the FIRE movement", with lots of 20 and 30s something attempting to follow in his footsteps. MMM, along with many of us have portrayed early retirement as great thing, a goal worth the numerous sacrifices associate with living well below your means.

But if one of the risks associated with early retirement, is would it increase my chance of divorcee, that's something I'd like to know if I was a 20 something, contemplating this lifestyle. Especially, if I was more enthusiastic than my significant other.

The discussion on this board and MMM doesn't seem to suggest that it makes a big difference.

This could describe every situation a couple runs into every choice you make in a relationship changes it , FIRE, no kids, SAHM, etc,etc….

And people can change too in the course of a relationship. You used the term "numerous sacrifices" to describe LBYM. It's a lifestyle choice not a sacrifice..

MMM FIRED, started a blog about it, got wildly successful. He's good at stuff and pretty intelligent. It's nobodies business why he got divorced.

 

[dvalley]

I didn't read anything between any lines that hinted at infidelity on either side.

Where are you getting these statistics about "most" women? Of myself and many friends whom I know divorced, a "replacement lined up" has never been the case. Not one. More focused on extricating ourselves and starting fresh, with the least impacts to children and worried about how they would finance their new lives...

Understood. Someone pointed to several studies on the divorce stats, some of those same articles also talk about the infidelity in women. This may be a shock to many here, understandably so, but the fact is that in the Western society today women have far more affairs than men ever did. If you're over 45ish it'll be hard for you to understand this because women of the previous generation weren't quite like the women today. It's far easier for women to have affairs nowadays and also to line up the replacements when they feel they're no longer 'happy' in a marriage. It sometimes starts with the emotional cheating with a co-worker or a past friend but could very well be that guy she bumped into at the coffee shop. I've seen it all around me; friends, cousins, and my own ex (despite her swearing up and down at the time) there was always another guy in the background. There's only one woman I know personally who's 38 where she left her husband (he cheated) without her having a guy of her own.

I was on a business trip a couple of years ago, a co-worker who I knew from prior conversations (over the years) had a 'great husband and two kids' suggested we can go back to my hotel room later. I made an excuse that I was meeting some family friends in the area- I had a gf at the time and even if I didn't I just won't knowingly do that with a married woman. Similarly, a friend told me he hooked up with a sales woman from an equipment manufacturing company who also had been married for 15+ yrs. It happens far more than one might think.

When I read his blog post there were several sentences where he seemed like he was trying to convince himself that it's better this way. Usually you do that when you've come to accept the sentence given to you. Additionally, the fact that they both found replacements within a yr of a very 'difficult' event is another suspect. Of course, we'll never know the truth as is usually the case but thought I'd throw my opinion into the mix

 

[Chuckanut]

Alas, women cheat just as men do, and they can be just as cruel. After I was divorced I decided to help others going through this, mess and volunteered to help in divorce support groups (Which by the way are cheap and much better than counseling for many.) The stories of cruelty and in some cases just down right evil behavior were all to frequent. No gender has any claim to the moral high ground in the area of divorce and infidelity.

In these modern times those genetic tests like 23 and Me have started a new trend in support groups. It seems there are a number of adults who get tested to see what's in their ancestry and - Surprise! - find out that Dad is not their bio-father.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

Alas, women cheat just as men do, and they can be just as cruel. After I was divorced I decided to help others going through this, mess and volunteered to help in divorce support groups (Which by the way are cheap and much better than counseling for many.) The stories of cruelty and in some cases just down right evil behavior were all to frequent. No gender has any claim to the moral high ground in the area of divorce and infidelity.

In these modern times those genetic tests like 23 and Me have started a new trend in support groups. It seems there are a number of adults who get tested to see what's in their ancestry and - Surprise! - find out that Dad is not their bio-father.

Are you aware that in France paternity tests can't be used to eliminate child support in married couples? Thats right, even if cupcake sleeps with someone else while married, and conceives, hubby gets to foot the bill. The law is in place because it was occurring so often.

 

[Music Lover]

Are you aware that in France paternity tests can't be used to eliminate child support in married couples? Thats right, even if cupcake sleeps with someone else while married, and conceives, hubby gets to foot the bill. The law is in place because it was occurring so often.

That's backwards...if it was happening too often, then a law punishing the innocent party is exactly the wrong thing to do.

 

[Chuckanut]

Are you aware that in France paternity tests can't be used to eliminate child support in married couples? Thats right, even if cupcake sleeps with someone else while married, and conceives, hubby gets to foot the bill. The law is in place because it was occurring so often.

I was not aware of that. But, the French have always been reputed to have a more libertine view of these matters. IIRC, John Adams made some comments on this topic while in Paris to negotiate with the French.

I do know of a guy who paid over a year's worth of court ordered child support to a woman who claimed her child was his. They were not married. He finally was able to get the required testing done, and, of course, the child was not his. He then asked for his money back. I'll give you one guess as to how that went.

 

[dvalley]

We're not too far behind from France...I lifted this from the 'net:

In California, the child of a married woman living with her husband at the date of conception, will legally be treated as the husband’s child unless one of the parents goes to court to claim otherwise within two years of the date of birth. Miss that 2-yr cutoff, and you are permanently daddy, even if the dna tests say otherwise.

Talk about legalized emasculation.

It's crazy times we live in these days. We have the romantic 1944 song 'Baby it's cold outside' being labeled as a rape song. There are consent apps out there now to help against the false rape charges and they're discussing what form of consent should be made mandatory at the state/fed level before adults engage in sexual activities. Even most women I know are shaking their heads as to where this is all going.

 

[clifp]

This could describe every situation a couple runs into every choice you make in a relationship changes it , FIRE, no kids, SAHM, etc,etc….

And people can change too in the course of a relationship. You used the term "numerous sacrifices" to describe LBYM. It's a lifestyle choice not a sacrifice..

MMM FIRED, started a blog about it, got wildly successful. He's good at stuff and pretty intelligent. It's nobodies business why he got divorced.

Reasonable people can disagree if MMM owed his readers an explanation of why he got divorced. I think we will just agree to disagree on this.

But I think you may have drunk too much of MMM kool-aid if you don't think LYBM is a sacrifice. It is pretty much the textbook example of delayed gratification. "subject resists the temptation of an immediate reward in preference for a later reward." You are sacrificing something today in hopes that money saved will make you happier in the future.

In some case, owning a bike and not a car, you could argue is an ecologically oriented lifestyle choice but in the vast majority of cases, it is just a sacrifice.

Three recent examples I've done. I'm flying economy rather than business or first class, I elected to wait for a movie to become available on Netflix or Amazon Prime rather than buy it on demand, and I decide to pick up Pizza rather than have it delivered, I'm not saving the planet with any of these choices, just saving money. I'm sure I'm not the only multimillionaire on the board, who does these things. In the last two cases, it doesn't even really make sense for me, because I've crossed the line from frugal to cheap. If had a partner who wanted to see the movie now or wanted the pizza delivered, it would idiotic for me argue about it. Even flying first class is certainly affordable for me.

This is the essence of my question for MMM, did LYBM become so ingrained in him that it affected his relationship

 

[ivinsfan]

Reasonable people can disagree if MMM owed his readers an explanation of why he got divorced. I think we will just agree to disagree on this.

But I think you may have drunk too much of MMM kool-aid if you don't think LYBM is a sacrifice. It is pretty much the textbook example of delayed gratification. "subject resists the temptation of an immediate reward in preference for a later reward." You are sacrificing something today in hopes that money saved will make you happier in the future.

In some case, owning a bike and not a car, you could argue is an ecologically oriented lifestyle choice but in the vast majority of cases, it is just a sacrifice.

Three recent examples I've done. I'm flying economy rather than business or first class, I elected to wait for a movie to become available on Netflix or Amazon Prime rather than buy it on demand, and I decide to pick up Pizza rather than have it delivered, I'm not saving the planet with any of these choices, just saving money. I'm sure I'm not the only multimillionaire on the board, who does these things. In the last two cases, it doesn't even really make sense for me, because I've crossed the line from frugal to cheap. If had a partner who wanted to see the movie now or wanted the pizza delivered, it would idiotic for me argue about it. Even flying first class is certainly affordable for me.

This is the essence of my question for MMM, did LYBM become so ingrained in him that it affected his relationship

I try not to drink anyone's Kool-Aid thank you .. I actually think this would be a good topic for another thread "Do you think LBYM is a lifestyle choice or a sacrifice " I'd be interested in those answers. I'm firmly in the lifestyle camp but maybe I am in the minority.

And what difference does it make if MMM says the lifestyle was a partial cause of his divorce how does that help others, since they aren't married to Mrs MMM? It's neither here nor there...

 

[Music Lover]

This is the essence of my question for MMM, did LYBM become so ingrained in him that it affected his relationship

I can see a lot of spouses going along with an extreme LBYM to reach a goal, but they now have reached FIRE but she's not able to enjoy some well earned luxury because it would have hurt his brand. That likely isn't the only reason they split, but it may have been a contributing factor....she doesn't like the idea of not going our for supper a few times a month, not owning a nice car, and not taking a nice vacation for the rest of her life.

Almost everyone here says that a 3% WD rate is safe...they're limiting themselves to less than 1%.

 

[ivinsfan]

I can see a lot of spouses going along with an extreme LBYM to reach a goal, but they now have reached FIRE but she's not able to enjoy some well earned luxury because it would have hurt his brand. That likely isn't the only reason they split, but it may have been a contributing factor....she doesn't like the idea of not going our for supper a few times a month, not owning a nice car, and not taking a nice vacation for the rest of her life.

Almost everyone here says that a 3% WD rate is safe...they're limiting themselves to less than 1%.

Where are you getting this from? You don't have one iota of fact that this even happened.

 

[Chuckanut]

We're not too far behind from France...I lifted this from the 'net:

In California, the child of a married woman living with her husband at the date of conception, will legally be treated as the husband’s child unless one of the parents goes to court to claim otherwise within two years of the date of birth. Miss that 2-yr cutoff, and you are permanently daddy, even if the dna tests say otherwise.

Talk about legalized emasculation.

Doesn't that protect the man? Think about it. After two years of raising a child, most men and women have bonded with with the child to a degree that far exceeds any simple biological bond. Just ask anybody who has adopted a child. This law ensures that the woman can't simply run off with the child and leave the 'daddy' eating his heart out.

In the situation I mentioned the man always knew from Day 1 the child was not his (I assume the timing was not right.) He had no part in the child's life other than being forced to pay expenses through legally forced child support deductions from his paycheck. That is a far cry from raising a child for two years and suddenly having it yanked away.

Like my old Grand Pappy used to day. "Anybody can be a Father, but it takes someone special to be a Daddy."

And I would add to what my grand pappy said my own corollary, 'The greatest compliment my child can give me is to call me 'Daddy'."

 

[corn18]

I think LBYM is fantastic! I tried the other way and lived way above our means and that sucked. Paying credit cards with credit cards. One bad day away from bankruptcy. We looked rich, but man were we poor.

I guess it all depends on what LBYM means to you. To me, it is pretty simple in that I save first with a target / goal in mind (ER @ 55). Tax man gets a good chunk. The rest we spend. I guess we could target even lower spending and accelerate our ER, but we decided together that 55 works for us at the income level it supports. Our budget is $150k/year, so I guess if we dropped that down to $40k / year we could retire tomorrow and my pension would cover that. Now that would cause some serious marital strife, but if we had to we could.

 

[flintnational]

I think I can summarize this thread.

"MMM's wife took a French lover. This caused the divorce. Now MMM will have to pay child support for the children born to his former wife and her new French lover. Shockingly, the French lover was turned off by Mrs. MM's LBYM ways and left her and went back to France where he will receive a cut of the MMM blog revenues in perpetuity."

Okay, I only skimmed the thread but I think I captured the salient points.