Some truth to people who think we can be 100% renewable

[Alan]

Yours is electric? If so, the temperature control of the electrical heater would be a lot faster and more responsive than throttling the burner flame of a gas heater. When I took a shower at the Airbnb, if the water flow was too low, the heater would cycle the flame on/off when it appeared not being able to find an equilibrium point.

And 30 kW of electrical power is impressive. The standard wiring in American homes is usually 30A at 230V, for 6 kW maximum. And the standard electric heater is 5.5 kW.

Nope, it’s gas. If you are looking for the BTU’s they went out a long time ago. I think probably only the USA uses British Thermal Units these days.

We have a 4 bedroom, 2 bathroom house with 12 radiators.

https://www.traderadiators.com/blog/what-size-boiler-do-i-need/

 

[NW-Bound]

Well, Americans are more conservative and resistant to change than people realize. Using kW for everything does make sense, but does it not feel weird using kW instead of BTU for your BBQ specifications?

OK. I feel a lot better now, knowing you are not using electric for heat. That's scarily expensive.

 

[NW-Bound]

And speaking of natural gas, recently Berkeley city council voted to ban the use of natural gas in all new residential buildings. Several adjacent cities are looking to do the same, such as San Francisco, San Jose, Santa Rosa, etc...

I guess they can afford to do heating with heatpumps, as it is not too cold in these places. Would still need new sources of electricity though. And at night too, so no solar.

I do not have natural gas in my metro home, nor in my 2nd home at 7,000 ft. They both use heat pumps. Somebody already figured out the electricity generation for me.

 

[Alan]

Well, Americans are more conservative than people realize. Using kW for everything does make sense, but does it not feel weird using kW instead of BTU for your BBQ specifications?

OK. I feel a lot better now, knowing you are not using electric for heat. That's scarily expensive.

It doesn’t take long to get used to the metric system, maybe because we are both retired engineers and grew up with the metric system in our jobs. We’ve even stopped mentally translating air temperatures from C to F, as we now know how warm or cold the temperatures feel in C and everyone here, even our longtime older friends only discuss temperatures in C, and if we say something like “it was over 100 when we were in France last month” they ask us to translate to C so they can relate to it.

Even our gas bill shows the charges in kWh. We pay 3.03p /kWh for gas and in 2018 we consumed 19,976 kWh of gas. Weird I know.

 

[NW-Bound]

I came from a place that used Celsius, but after several decades of using Fahrenheit I cannot think of a comfort range in C anymore.

About using kWh for all thermal sources such as natural gas, it does make sense as it allows direct comparison of the cost of different sources.

What's next to be measured in kWh? Gasoline or petrol as you call it?

 

[ERD50]

I came from a place that used Celsius, but after several decades of using Fahrenheit I cannot think of a comfort range in C anymore.

About using kWh for all thermal sources such as natural gas, it does make sense as it allows direct comparison of the cost of different sources.

What's next to be measured in kWh? Gasoline or petrol as you call it?

It would make good sense, but I'm also stuck in that comfort zone of US/English units for most things, and mostly need to 'translate' in my head. I keep trying to work on it becoming natural, but I'm lazy.

If we sold gasoline/fuel/petrol by the kWh, people would instantly realize value of the ethanol blends. They may show up cheaper at some pumps here (by the gallon), but may be more expensive in actual energy to move your car (what you really are paying for).

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

The EV people know about how many Wh it takes to drive their car 1 mile, but what do I know about my ICE vehicles' fuel mileage as measured in kWh/mi?

By the way, one gallon of gas has the energy of 33.7 kWh. My solar system can produce the equivalent of 2/3 gal of gasoline each day. Now, I can relate.

Do people here remember the Metric Conversion Act that was passed in 1975?

The metrification has stalled out, and according to Wikipedia "as of 2019 the United States is one of only three countries (the others being Myanmar and Liberia) that have not officially adopted the metric system as the primary means of weights and measures."

Makes me wonder what systems Myanmar and Liberia are using.

 

[dixonge]

The population of the developed world could live quite well on a fraction of the energy being used today. Look back a century. 1st world lower middle class lives with things only the 1% could have back then. A big part is cheap energy. We will continue to use it up until only the 1 % will have access to it. Things like the deepwater horizon are messages from nature of how stupid humans are squandering irreplaceable resources.

While I’m not a big fan of fossil fuels, we’ve got hundreds of years of it still out there. Here’s a good discussion of resources vs reserves, with some nice charts as well:

Exposing the 2 percent Oil Reserves Myth

We need to strengthen regulations and penalties for pollution and spills, but there’s plenty of cheap energy available. Better if we just opened up nuclear plants...

 

[Alan]

I came from a place that used Celsius, but after several decades of using Fahrenheit I cannot think of a comfort range in C anymore.

About using kWh for all thermal sources such as natural gas, it does make sense as it allows direct comparison of the cost of different sources.

What's next to be measured in kWh? Gasoline or petrol as you call it?

Although petrol is sold in liters it is still given an octane energy reading here. Not sure if there are any plans to change.

 

[explanade]

Nobody is holding nuclear back.

No private operator wants to take it on. Beyond the heavy capital costs, they can no longer produce electricity at competitive prices.

So it can't compete on capital or operating costs.

 

[Audie Murphy]

I remember reading about Thorium reactors and wonder why we haven’t put them to use.

 

[NW-Bound]

Although petrol is sold in liters it is still given an octane energy reading here. Not sure if there are any plans to change.

I was joking about selling gasoline by the kWh instead of by volume, and comparing car fuel mileage by mile/kWh or kWh per 100 km. I guess it is possible to think that way, but it takes too much work to change the way we think, and not for much benefit.

And by the way, octane rating is not a measure of the energy content of the fuel.

 

[NW-Bound]

While I’m not a big fan of fossil fuels, we’ve got hundreds of years of it still out there. Here’s a good discussion of resources vs reserves, with some nice charts as well:

Exposing the 2 percent Oil Reserves Myth

We need to strengthen regulations and penalties for pollution and spills, but there’s plenty of cheap energy available. Better if we just opened up nuclear plants...

The problem people have with fossil fuel is with CO2 as a greenhouse gas. I like clean RE, but do not see how we can be 100% on it with the current technology. We are not even close to 50%, and look at the problem [-]we[/-] Texans are having when the wind just dies down a bit in Texas.

 

[NW-Bound]

At some point, utility companies can no longer promise consumers a fixed price contract. Electricity price will be driven by market supply and demand, not too differently than the price of gasoline.

Homes will have to be fitted with smart meters, and the consumption cost will be counted in real time, as the price of each kWh fluctuates through the day. Each home will have a smart load controller, to which the user can program his own priority and preference. You can tell the water heater to not turn on unless the price is less than 8c/kWh for example. If the price is higher than 25c, then raise the thermostat up to 85F. EV owners will have to wait to charge their car until it is midday and the sun is shining. If you need to charge your car during the early evening when there is a shortage, you will have to pay the spot price.

People who invest in a home battery storage system can then alleviate the short fall during peak periods by not using the stored energy themselves, and pumping it into the grid to make money. Retirees may be able to use the battery in their EV to make some money this way.

The best way to have demand and supply match is via charging the real cost. People will have the smart meter telling their smartphone that they are currently spending $20/hr on electricity, and they would better raise their thermostat setting. And they will see that dollar number going down immediately.

 

[dixonge]

Nobody is holding nuclear back.

No private operator wants to take it on. Beyond the heavy capital costs, they can no longer produce electricity at competitive prices.

So it can't compete on capital or operating costs.

In the U.S. there are five plants under construction, so someone figured out the numbers work eventually. And France and South Korea have kept costs stable, or even dropping. So it's doable, but I'm not sure the U.S has the willpower or leadership intelligence to make major changes.

https://www.vox.com/2016/2/29/11132930/nuclear-power-costs-us-france-korea

 

[Alan]

At some point, utility companies can no longer promise consumers a fixed price contract. Electricity price will be driven by market supply and demand, not too differently than the price of gasoline.

Homes will have to be fitted with smart meters, and the consumption cost will be counted in real time, as the price of each kWh fluctuates through the day. Each home will have a smart load controller, to which the user can program his own priority and preference. You can tell the water heater to not turn on unless the price is less than 8c/kWh for example. If the price is higher than 25c, then raise the thermostat up to 85F. EV owners will have to wait to charge their car until it is midday and the sun is shining. If you need to charge your car during the early evening when there is a shortage, you will have to pay the spot price.

People who invest in a home battery storage system can then alleviate the short fall during peak periods by not using the stored energy themselves, and pumping it into the grid to make money. Retirees may be able to use the battery in their EV to make some money this way.

The best way to have demand and supply match is via charging the real cost. People will have the smart meter telling their smartphone that they are currently spending $20/hr on electricity, and they would better raise their thermostat setting. And they will see that dollar number going down immediately.

The UK currently has a big push going to install smart meters in every home. Some of the advantages and displays you mention are available once a smart meter is fitted, as shown here.

https://www.smartenergygb.org/en/smart-meter-benefits/benefits-for-you

I’m looking forward to getting ours fitted in a few weeks time.

 

[explanade]

Yeah they offer federal loan guarntees and PPAs which go out for 40 years.

So they force people to pay higher than market rates.

If people want to argue that we should have nuclear power, even if it costs considerably more than other sources and the feds or we as a society should subsidize it to have it, that's fine, just be honest about it.

 

[NW-Bound]

In the U.S. there are five plants under construction, so someone figured out the numbers work eventually. And France and South Korea have kept costs stable, or even dropping. So it's doable, but I'm not sure the U.S has the willpower or leadership intelligence to make major changes.

https://www.vox.com/2016/2/29/11132930/nuclear-power-costs-us-france-korea

The article says the cost of a nuclear plant has escalated to $7000/kW. How does that compare to a solar farm?

Commercial-sized solar farms are about $1000/kW according to several sources. However, a nuclear plant can run 24/7 while even here in the SW, solar generation in the winter is equivalent to about 4 hours of max sunlight each day.

With the capacity factor of 1/6, we need 6x solar nameplate rating. And that's $6000/kW and we are not talking about battery for storage yet.

To store energy for overnight use, we need perhaps 18 kWh for a continuous load of 1kW over 24 hrs. That's another $3600 if we can get battery cost down to $200/kWh. Total cost: $9,600 compared to $7,000 for nuclear.

The above is just a crude estimate of installation costs by a layman, and does not address operating costs. But it is surprising for me to see battery storage is getting there. Of course, the life of the equipment has to be considered, and it is not so simple. Or one can throw windmills into the mix to help out at night.

 

[Music Lover]

In the U.S. there are five plants under construction, so someone figured out the numbers work eventually. And France and South Korea have kept costs stable, or even dropping. So it's doable, but I'm not sure the U.S has the willpower or leadership intelligence to make major changes.

https://www.vox.com/2016/2/29/11132930/nuclear-power-costs-us-france-korea

The special interest groups make nuclear very (and expensive) with their delaying and legal tactics so it's no surprise that new construction is less than it could be.

That's another "cost" of electricity rarely discussed...those extra costs racked up by environmental groups. The consumer ultimately pays for every single delay and legal challenge that they manage to deploy.

 

[Lakewood90712]

The article says the cost of a nuclear plant has escalated to $7000/kW. How does that compare to a solar farm?

Commercial-sized solar farms are about $1000/kW according to several sources. However, a nuclear plant can run 24/7 while even here in the SW, solar generation in the winter is equivalent to about 4 hours of max sunlight each day.

With the capacity factor of 1/6, we need 6x solar nameplate rating. And that's $6000/kW and we are not talking about battery for storage yet.

To store energy for overnight use, we need perhaps 18 kWh for a continuous load of 1kW over 24 hrs. That's another $3600 if we can get battery cost down to $200/kWh. Total cost: $9,600 compared to $7,000 for nuclear.

The above is just a crude estimate of installation costs by a layman, and does not address operating costs. But it is surprising for me to see battery storage is getting there. Of course, the life of the equipment has to be considered, and it is not so simple. Or one can throw windmills into the mix to help out at night.

$7,000 per KW for a new nuke plant ? What happened to " Too cheap to meter "
Oh sorry, the AEC chair was referring to Fusion power : https://public-blog.nrc-gateway.gov/2016/06/03/too-cheap-to-meter-a-history-of-the-phrase/

65 years ago. Are we any closer ?

 

[dixonge]

The article says the cost of a nuclear plant has escalated to $7000/kW. How does that compare to a solar farm?

Closer to $2000/kW in France.

 

[NW-Bound]

When brownouts and blackouts are a daily occurrence, people will consume less energy by default.

I will be able to keep cool with my mini-split using my solar+storage battery. I definitely will install a small 9,000-BTU mini-split for the master bedroom, and will expand the solar array for an additional 2 kW.

When the lights are all dark around me, the mini-split will be so quiet they do not know I am still in cool comfort. I hope the Internet will still be up, else I have to rely on my stack of DVDs for recreation.

 

[NW-Bound]

Meanwhile, Amazon joined Walmart in saying that one of its warehouses got a rooftop fire from panels installed by Solar City.

The way I wired mine is quite cumbersome and costly, but the risk of a panel fire is substantially reduced if not eliminated. And my panels are ground mounted too.

I do have to watch out for equipment fires, and that's why I have the equipment in a garden shed, not in my garage. I will have to install a small AC for the shed, so that I can keep its doors closed. It's hot in there with the equipment running, and it would ruin the batteries.

 

[Alan]

With Britain being an island with some of the largest tidal movements in the world it is estimated that wave power could provide 20% of energy needs. RE is already at 33% in 2019, Gas at 40%, nuclear at 20% and coal 7%. If they could only get the wave power generation up and running.

 

[JoeWras]

If they could only get the wave power generation up and running.

Brutal, brutal environment for longevity and maintenance.


There are also impacts to sea life. But the engineering for durability tends to be the biggest stumbling block.