Men: Why is suicide the answer to business losses?

[Bestwifeever]

If only all women were as cool as the ones on the board...

Hey, who are you calling cold? I resemble that remark.

 

[freebird5825]

If only all women were as cool as the ones on the board...

Ah, flattery...
Keep it coming, men.

I am learning a lot from this discussion. It has opened my eyes to a lot of what I am watching dh2b go through in his transition from the old life in hell to the new life in heaven. No details necessary.
TY so much for the insight. I really mean that.

 

[ScooterGuy]

Men's vs. Women's

My understanding was that men defined themselves mainly by what they did -- either with their hands or keeping score with $$. Take that away (economic downturn, being fired, becoming disabled, or getting old, etc.) and there wasn't much left.

Women defined themselves by what they were, or thought they were, 'inside.' In their 'hearts.' In addition to having other women as a support, their sense of self-worth was being womanly (wife, homemaker, companion, caregiver, etc.). Many of women's suicides revolved around the gray area of 'relationships.'

Just my 4 cents worth (100% inflation on 2 cents).

 

[haha]

My understanding was that men defined themselves mainly by what they did -- either with their hands or keeping score with $$. Take that away (economic downturn, being fired, becoming disabled, or getting old, etc.) and there wasn't much left.

A lot of insight here I think. I knew a young guy years ago who was a logger (choker setter). He got an ankle injury that meant that he could no longer hop up and down and from tree to tree and he was devastated. In the end it turned out well for him- he went to university on his Viet-Nam vet benefits, became a mathematician and got a job with a defense firm.

Ha

 

[Bimmerbill]

I never understood the whole suicide over money. Heck this is the USA! Go bankrupt and start over again. That's what makes the country great... Not the bankruptcy part, but the starting over part. We all have the opportunities.

 

[Free To Canoe]

Some are, one would imagine. As for the pressures society puts on men, if you have never been the sole breadwinner for a family, I can't explain the sense of urgency that stays just below the surface until you lose your livelihood, upon which time it is full-blown panic or nearly so.

+2
This man was a guest speaker invited by a liberal club to talk about the book he wrote for NOW (National Organization of Women). His research attempted to explain the paradox of why women, generally, are underpaid. To put it kindly, many business leaders are highly motivated and focused on the [-]success[/-] profit of the business. Economics and the "invisible hand" are at work here, too. So greedy business managers would forsake profits to hire overpaid males so that they can enforce gender discrimination? This is the paradox.

In his answer he clearly explained gender bias and life. I hope I can pull off a clear explanation in this post. Job classifications are "naturally" gender biased. This is because the male must provide food, wealth, cattle or a second hand car so that he can attract mates. When I was in high school, I quit sports so that I could work part time to buy a second hand car. Why?

The system was set up to favor male occupations (this is all generalizations of course). Society has changed (?) it's values but the occupation structure remains. A women usually needs to enter a "man's" field to make the higher wage. These occupations (think blue collar) are generally more dangerous / hazardous and with shorter life expectancies. Going back to explaining the paradox, generally speaking, there is no discrimination.

Bottom line in society as in nature, males are not really needed after they provide for the young. This and their self concept is tied to employment in much the same way as the female's is tied to nurturing child rearing.

The sad truth as related to the thread is that we are not much better than the male black widow spider. We work hard and die early so that our spouses can have it all. This is our purpose. When you take away livelyhood, the thin veil of civilization is not enough to keep the ugly truth out.

This is way too long and poorly written. Cannot come up with the speakers name or the book where he explains it all.

Free to Canoe

PS I know and understand that there was and is gender discrimination.

 

[FinanceDude]

If only all women were as cool as the ones on the board...

Brewer was referring to frigid women in his post above......

 

[brewer12345]

Brewer was referring to frigid women in his post above......

Eh, nothing so mundane as what goes on between the sheets. I was referring to women with impossibly high expectations and absolutely no interest in what their prospective partner might want. Throw a rock and you will generally hit one.

 

[angelbaby]

Can someone explain to me why so many men (and it's never the women) commit suicide when their company is going down?

I'll tell you the reason is a very simple one. In today's modern society, financial success (bread provider) is what literally defines masculine identity.

If a woman loses her job and has to rely on her male spouse for help when the economy is hard hit, it is socially acceptable for her to stay home and spend extra time with the children until the job market improves. It's considered "unfortunate" and she'll have a shoulder to go home to cry on. The couple may even decide later that it is better that she stay home entirely and become a homemaker.

If a man loses his job, even through no fault of his own (e.g., layoffs, company closures, etc.), he is automatically treated as a worthless "bum" upon coming home. In the eyes of female his spouse, his relatives and even in the eyes of other men who know him, he is a "dead beat" who is not worth his own salt. There could be fewer than one jobs for a hundred unemployed in his town, but as long as he doesn't have one, he is to be reviled as an object of shame and scorn. Just when he needs help and reassurance the most, he is given the extra leg-down by all who know him. His very existential being and fulfillment of social obligations relies upon him consistently being entrepreneurial and innovative. If there is no way, he must hurry to invent one or be forced to eat a bowl of concrete and have bricks thrown at him upon returning home with his head held down.

This is a very very rigid model, still ingrained to this very day and people don't like when it is challenged. Anyone who is a stay-at-home dad or part of a gay couple can tell you this.

One guy I know who is part of a male-female couple stays at home as a homemaker while his wife is a high-powered corporate attorney. They would rather the father (who was a full-time accountant), stay at home and spend time with the kids during the developmental years than sit around all day around the office. She makes enough money for both of them to afford the mortgage and to retire comfortably in the next 15 years. She prefers he stays home and she thinks he's much better with the kids than she is, since attorneys can be too serious and too tired and stressed out to spend time changing diapers and answering questions about Sesame Street. What I remember most is what he told me about daycare, the PTA and men's restrooms. Men are almost always treated as pariahs in these organizations. It doesn't matter if you have your kids with you, they still tend to look at you funny and see you as some sort of weirdo child-molester type if you are nurturing and affectionate toward kids. Men's restrooms for the most part still lack diaper-changing stations. It's as if these sorts of things should only concern women. A stay-at-home dad is regarded as someone who "shouldn't be mooching off his wife" and "needs to get a real job", as if parenting weren't a hard enough task to begin with!

 

[brewer12345]

What I remember most is what he told me about daycare, the PTA and men's restrooms. Men are almost always treated as pariahs in these organizations. It doesn't matter if you have your kids with you, they still tend to look at you funny and see you as some sort of weirdo child-molester type if you are nurturing and affectionate toward kids.

Vouch. My older daughter goes to a cooperative preschool where parents commit to being in-classroom helpers (essentially teachers aides) a half dozen times a semester. I am one of 2 or 3 dad's who ever show up to be a helper and I am one of the few who sometimes shows up to pick their kid up after school. In most cases, the moms will say hello to me and that's about it, despite the fact that several will typically stand around chatting while the kids run around for 15 minutes after school officially lets out.

 

[kcowan]

Brewer...
Maybe you intimidate them. They would not want their overtures to be misconstrued....

(I was a Beaver Leader for 5 years and got to understand the complexities of dealing with moms and dads. I was going to write a book about it but too much time has passed.)

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Back to original question, I imagine that there is something in common with the fact that most murderers are men. Aggression is part of the package.

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

Back to original question, I imagine that there is something in common with the fact that most murderers are men. Aggression is part of the package.

OK, but I don't believe that aggression has much to do with suicide. I'm not a push over, but I still don't enjoy hitting myself in the face that much, and I would imagine that I'd enjoy even less so pointing a gun at my head and pulling the trigger.

As for what another person said earlier, yeah, I think we are still operating under the old rules while women have a few options under the modern model. I got the pressure from my old school uncle last Christmas. He kept saying, "Why don't you be a man and support a woman?" I'm thinking, unless I got the woman pregnant, why the heck does he assume that a woman needs my support?

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Testosterone clouds judgement, sometimes leading to self-destructive behaviour. Ask Uncle Mick.

 

[DangerMouse]

I have seen some very good points made by our male contributors which make a lot of sense. I do believe there are different expectations for males and females, especially when it comes to supporting your family. I can see where a man would be made to feel like a failure if he lost his job whereas for a female many people would probably blather about it being an opportunity for her to stay home with her family.

However, I have to add that we are not all awful creatures. My husband is the most important person in my life and if he were to lose his job tomorrow or something happened to him healthwise it would not change the way I feel about him. For me it is not about the money, because with the money but no DH I would feel like I had lost my future. I do know the type of women you are referring to as I see them every day on a women's message board I am a member of. The selfishness of some of these creatures blows my mind, but it does give me a reminder of what I never want to be.

 

[freebird5825]

I have seen some very good points made by our male contributors which make a lot of sense. I do believe there are different expectations for males and females, especially when it comes to supporting your family. I can see where a man would be made to feel like a failure if he lost his job whereas for a female many people would probably blather about it being an opportunity for her to stay home with her family.

However, I have to add that we are not all awful creatures. My husband is the most important person in my life and if he were to lose his job tomorrow or something happened to him healthwise it would not change the way I feel about him. For me it is not about the money, because with the money but no DH I would feel like I had lost my future. I do know the type of women you are referring to as I see them every day on a women's message board I am a member of. The selfishness of some of these creatures blows my mind, but it does give me a reminder of what I never want to be.

Are we related?
Excellent post, excellent.
I think the guys here who have not been burnt, and maybe even some that have, realize that all women are not avaricious golddiggers. Sadly, so many of our gender are. Case by case.
I have had the displeasure of observing 2 dear friends (1 man, 1 woman) and of course dh2b go through divorces in the past few years. The Ozzie and Harriet mindset on the benches for the 2 men was astounding. The men got clobbered with paying for more than 50% of the joint marital debt in spite of strong evidence showing the female ran up the credit bills. HUH?
The woman friend, however, was left saddled with a $30K home equity loan that her now-ex ran up on non-house related bills. It was either that or give up half her 401(k), established prior to their marriage. Her fault for putting his name on the line of credit against her house (not theirs) in the first place. But it was the judge's fault for not looking at the record of charges with her ex's signature on them, that she and her lawyer brought to court .
In all 3 cases, it was all about the money.
So where is the equity ? It doesn't exist.

 

[haha]

Are we related?
Excellent post, excellent.
I think the guys here who have not been burnt, and maybe even some that have, realize that all women are not avaricious golddiggers. Sadly, so many of our gender are. Case by case.

I would like to say that I have no problem with women as a group, or most female individuals. However, the social and legal structure of our current society make it risky to find out how it might go. A young guy who wants kids, he should get married, because even if the marriage eventually hits the wall you do have those kids.

I am unable to understand why a middle aged man would want to get married. I am always finding out things about the women I know that stayed hidden for years. I think the average marriage lasts longer than 7 years- how many of us have known our spouse-to-be longer than that? Just a few days ago a friend (friend only) told me that she hasn't slept with her husband for 5 years. She no longer works either- she cooks and cleans well, but that is her contribution. So I asked how he felt about all this. He doesn't like it, she said. Aren't you afraid that he will leave you I said. No, he couldn't afford to give up half of his pension! And they both made their first marriage at age 40, and were in love as most people are when they get married.

So a small part of the problem is true gold-diggers, and a larger part just that you really have little predictability. It's like owning a condo with no earthquale insureance in an earthquake zone. It can fall down, stop delivering the services for which you contracted, and you still have to keep paying.

Yet if he gets a girlfriend and isn't very discrete about it, he is at his wife's mercy if she should decide to make a play for a better than 50/50 split, based on his infidelity.

Ha

 

[unclemick]

Testosterone clouds judgement, sometimes leading to self-destructive behaviour. Ask Uncle Mick.

Like watching too much football - among other things.

heh heh heh -

 

[bbbamI]

I am unable to understand why a middle aged man would want to get married.
Ha

My guess would be for love...or someone to help him find his socks.....

 

[haha]

My guess would be for love...or someone to help him find his socks.....

Get a goldfish.

ha

 

[DangerMouse]

Just a few days ago a friend (friend only) told me that she hasn't slept with her husband for 5 years. She no longer works either- she cooks and cleans well, but that is her contribution. So I asked how he felt about all this. He doesn't like it, she said. Aren't you afraid that he will leave you I said. No, he couldn't afford to give up half of his pension! And they both made their first marriage at age 40, and were in love as most people are when they get married.

Ha

Part of the problem I believe is we all get too complacent. We have been married nearly 16 years and I would be a liar if I said we have never had rough patches. However, those rough patches have been due to complacency. I look at myself and am disappointed at what I have let myself become, what has become of the woman that my spouse married? It's too easy to believe that this is what middle age looks like. As to regards the sex, if we spent 5% of the time that we waste watching TV or on the computer towards wooing our other half we would all be a lot happier. The problem is during the courtship stage most of us shag ourselves stupid. However, once the responsibility of being an adult sets in, we let the mundaneness of life take over and forget who we were.

I'm sad for the woman that you mention Ha, because you know what - she is cheating herself out of what her life could be. Sad to think that someone is willing to go through the motions of living for the sake of a few quick bucks rather than putting herself out there and living a truly fulfilled life.

 

[freebird5825]

...However, the social and legal structure of our current society make it risky to find out how it might go.
...I think the average marriage lasts longer than 7 years- how many of us have known our spouse-to-be longer than that?
...Aren't you afraid that he will leave you I said. No, he couldn't afford to give up half of his pension!...So a small part of the problem is true gold-diggers, and a larger part just that you really have little predictability... and you still have to keep paying.
Ha

No argument here.
I am watching the "keep paying" live and in concert with dh2b. It sickens me. And he was relatively protected by federal statute that no local judge could "interpret" or override. I fed his attorney all the governing regulations and legal citations. The good news is it is not forever. There are time limits on each payout except his military retirement. Whew!
But this lady you mention really sickens me. What she is doing is nothing short of $ hostage holding.
Way too many men I have known over the years have jumped in with both feet, only to be taken to the cleaners when the earthquake happened.
As a financially and psychologically independent woman, I do not want anyone's pension, any more than I would want anyone helping themselves to mine.
Re: 7 year average, dh2b will have an 8 year total wait, poor guy. The same laws that govern our collective benefits prevent us from saying "I do" without me losing substantial survivor benefits. Go figure. He has a bucketload of benefits to offer me. It's a stalemate.
The good news is we are willing to wait.

 

[HFWR]

Get a goldfish.

ha

My goldfish left me for another fish...

Part of the problem I believe is we all get too complacent. We have been married nearly 16 years and I would be a liar if I said we have never had rough patches. However, those rough patches have been due to complacency. I look at myself and am disappointed at what I have let myself become, what has become of the woman that my spouse married? It's too easy to believe that this is what middle age looks like. As to regards the sex, if we spent 5% of the time that we waste watching TV or on the computer towards wooing our other half we would all be a lot happier. The problem is during the courtship stage most of us shag ourselves stupid. However, once the responsibility of being an adult sets in, we let the mundaneness of life take over and forget who we were.

I'm sad for the woman that you mention Ha, because you know what - she is cheating herself out of what her life could be. Sad to think that someone is willing to go through the motions of living for the sake of a few quick bucks rather than putting herself out there and living a truly fulfilled life.

You're just watching the wrong stuff...

 

[tmm99]

This thread has been thought-provoking.

I am not sure why men commit suicide more than women. I would think there are many factors.

It is interesting that you hear a guy pretending to go to work in front of his family even after he got laid off/fired, etc. Women would never do that IMO.

I know a couple... both hustand and wife in their early 50's at the time if not late 40's. A husband told his wife who has been working for years that she should quit her job (I think the reason was that she really hated her work environment). She quit her work and she never found another job and he was OK with it. The husband said he made enough money for both of them. Women would never do that for her husbands IMO. Several years later, he got laid off, and has been having difficulty finding a job. Now what.

 

[tmm99]

Originally Posted by haha
Just a few days ago a friend (friend only) told me that she hasn't slept with her husband for 5 years. She no longer works either- she cooks and cleans well, but that is her contribution. So I asked how he felt about all this. He doesn't like it, she said. Aren't you afraid that he will leave you I said. No, he couldn't afford to give up half of his pension! And they both made their first marriage at age 40, and were in love as most people are when they get married.

Ha

That is a real sad story. Money is the only reason they are together? I'm sure there are many hidden factors behind the whole thing, but on the surface it looks very sad.

I saw on Oprah (or was it Suze Orman show) a couple who wanted to get a divorce but they couldn't afford to live separately until they could sell their house they were living in, but the house wasn't selling, so they still lived together.