USA's Future - UK budget cuts of £81bn announced

[Emeritus]

Wir sollten darauf achten, einer Erfahrung nur so viel Weisheit zu entnehmen, wie in ihr steckt – mehr nicht; damit wir nicht der Katze gleichen, die sich auf eine heiße Herdplatte setzte. Sie setzt sich nie wieder auf eine heiße Herdplatte – und das ist richtig; aber sie setzt sich auch nie wieder auf eine kalte.

So sagt Mark Twain

 

[Pie Floater]

So sagt Mark Twain

Wow, I'm impressed.

 

[Emeritus]

I agree, it is very difficult to put a $ amount on some of this, and two people in the exact position probably would not agree.

But that is why I responded as I did to Gone4Good, who said it was undeniable that we received more than we paid in, due to deficit spending. I see that as wrong on several points, one being the possible uneven distribution of those "benefits" (as you point out), another being the real value to me of money spent for something that maybe I didn't want. I don't do that with my own money, so let me keep it rather than taking it and spending it for me, even if you spend $1.50 "for" me and collect $1, I might not get what I see as a dollars "worth". Another being the possible uneven distribution of tax payments, and the last one off the top of my head is that we are paying for that deficit spending currently in interest and I'm sure we will be paying for it in the future. There is a price to it for people entering retirement age today.

-ERD50

"We" is of course a collective that has nothing to do with individuals gainor loss . So using "i" to confront it is not very useful

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

[Emeritus]

Wow, I'm impressed.

Man muss zufrieden sein.

 

[GusLevy]

Browsing this forum "discussion" while we currently live in an increasingly fractured and polarized political climate in the USA makes me chuckle, mixed with a concomitant feeling of unease. I am reminded that Rome ultimately fell when it could not support the financial and pension obligations - the modern pension system was originated by the Roman Empire - of it's expanded empire only after several generations of raising taxes became the only tool that could be applied to stall the inevitable collapse. Ironically, the Germans allowed the last Roman Emperor to live out his final days on a nice pension!

Some thoughts from T. Jefferson:
"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."

And, after someone mentioned Rawls, a thought from Norman Thomas (Socialist Party of America leader in '30s):
"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism, but under the name of Liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program until one day America will be a Socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened."

 

[Alan]

Rishworth, Rippendon in the early 90's. Otherwise, didn't like the attached houses in council neighborhoods and the lager louts in the center of Bradford after pub last calls. Or the row upon row of coal smoke belching chimneys now that you mention it.

How about your experiences that

That have been no coal belching chimneys in major cities since the late 60's due to the clean air act, and in 1993 the whole country went smokeless. I remember it well, growing up in the NE of England. I lived in the centre of Bradford from 1973 to 1976 and then at Odsal Top, a few miles out, in 1977 and there were definitely no rows of coal belching fires, the whole city was smokeless.

Rippendon and Rishworth are hardly representative of Bradford, Huddersfield and Halifax, and being rural, the clean air act will not have applied to them until 1993 so you may have been unlucky in that respect, although the transition to smokeless coal was pretty quick - my parent's terraced house was converted to smokeless a few years before Mam died in 1995.

Attached houses is hardly 3rd world, it comes from a population of over 40 million in an area the size of Louisiana, with large tracts set aside as National Parks (National Trust in England).

I have to agree with the "lager louts" spilling out from the pubs after closing time, but that is an endemic problem with all towns in the UK these days at weekends. It was a problem in the 80's and 90's and is MUCH worse now.

 

[Emeritus]

I've been watching you rant and rave for several days now but have to speak up now that you are slagging off some of my favorite places.

Where exactly have you lived in these "Dickensian existences" you refer to? I don't believe you have a clue what you are talking about. It reminds me of a poster called OAP who once talked a load of rubbish about a part of England that I know very well.

I lived in Bradford for 4 years, Odsal Top for the last year, plus I had family who lived in Halifax for many years. I loved going to visit them.

What exactly were your experiences that made you feel so bad. Couldn't stand seeing little boys being sent up the chimney or something?

On business I've been in the poor areas of England Wales Scotland ireland Hamburg Amsterdam Vienna and Melbourne. I actually qualified as an expert witness in a US court on low income German housing. Different countries have different perceptions of housing. If you take housing of about the same vintage occupied by roughly the same socioeconomic class there is no question that the Best is northern continental Europe followed roughly by southern Europe, then the UK with the USA at the bottom.

My favorite ballpark measure was broken windows. Very rare in Germany, known in the south , common in the UK and very widespread in the USA. Its a limited but useful indicator of the level of tenant concern, local crime and management response.

 

[Pie Floater]

That have been no coal belching chimneys in major cities since the late 60's due to the clean air act, and in 1993 the whole country went smokeless. I remember it well, growing up in the NE of England. I lived in the centre of Bradford from 1973 to 1976 and then at Odsal Top, a few miles out, in 1977 and there were definitely no rows of coal belching fires, the whole city was smokeless.

Rippendon and Rishworth are hardly representative of Bradford, Huddersfield and Halifax, and being rural, the clean air act will not have applied to them until 1993 so you may have been unlucky in that respect, although the transition to smokeless coal was pretty quick - my parent's terraced house was converted to smokeless a few years before Mam died in 1995.

Attached houses is hardly 3rd world, it comes from a population of over 40 million in an area the size of Louisiana, with large tracts set aside as National Parks (National Trust in England).

I have to agree with the "lager louts" spilling out from the pubs after closing time, but that is an endemic problem with all towns in the UK these days at weekends. It was a problem in the 80's and 90's and is MUCH worse now.

Alan, again, not meaning to offend and if look back my posts have been mostly about US SS and only when prodded did I mention England issues.

If you are familiar with Rippendon, you'll know that many of the houses are either on the High St, whatever it was called then, I think Oldham Rd. or the little valleys below which would have smoke hanging in the air every morning. My uncle (I was sent to live with him) worked at the bus mechanics garage and his life was go to work, get off, go to the pub and come home about midnight all p'd and get up and do it again.

Not a happy time in my life and seemed the same for many of the locals.

Sounds like you've been in the center of Bradford and watch the fun. Lots of rough lads having a go as I recall.

 

[harley]

Wow, I'm impressed.

You know, as of right now you've made 47 posts in this community, and 46 of them have been on this thread. And you haven't said anything new since about post 3. I have to assume you've maxed out your capabilities. Have a nice life.

 

[Alan]

Alan, again, not meaning to offend and if look back my posts have been mostly about US SS and only when prodded did I mention England issues.

If you are familiar with Rippendon, you'll know that many of the houses are either on the High St, whatever it was called then, I think Oldham Rd. or the little valleys below which would have smoke hanging in the air every morning. My uncle (I was sent to live with him) worked at the bus mechanics garage and his life was go to work, get off, go to the pub and come home about midnight all p'd and get up and do it again.

Not a happy time in my life and seemed the same for many of the locals.

Sounds like you've been in the center of Bradford and watch the fun. Lots of rough lads having a go as I recall.

I can see that the villages in that area would still have smokey fires in the 90's. I never realized how bad the air was with coal fires until I left home from a small pit town in Durham and went to Bradford in 1973.

I know exactly the lifestyle you describe with going to work every day and going to the pub every night to get pi$$ed. I knew plenty similar folks growing up but my Dad was not like that thank goodness even though he was down the pit 6 days a week. It must have been very hard for you.

I've been in the centre of Bradford late at night many times in the 70's and in fact had my "stag night" there in 1976. (got the traffic cone etc). If it was bad back then I didn't really notice, but I don't doubt it was much worse in your time.

Back on topic, I don't see the USA following the UK in dramatic budget cutting any time soon. The USA doesn't have the same political system that allows it, and I expect the USA will nibble at the edges for a long time yet. Of course those nibbles will feel huge and dramatic but we won't see the sort of budget reform currently going on now in the UK, or as happened in the 80's under the Thatcher government.

 

[Emeritus]

AMy uncle (I was sent to live with him) worked at the bus mechanics garage and his life was go to work, get off, go to the pub and come home about midnight all p'd and get up and do it again.
.

Oh and there I thought you were talking about social systems rather than pointing out what drunken layabouts you can find in Britain. Nothing new there


not like over in Ireland where "all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average,"

 

[ERD50]

I agree, it is very difficult to put a $ amount on some of this, and two people in the exact position probably would not agree.

But that is why I responded as I did to Gone4Good, who said it was undeniable that we received more than we paid in, due to deficit spending. I see that as wrong on several points, ...

"We" is of course a collective that has nothing to do with individuals gain or loss . So using "i" to confront it is not very useful ...

I agree again - philosophically.

But the "we" becomes an "I" when people say that "I" didn't pay anywhere near into SS what "I" will take out, and "I" should be willing to give up the SS that "I" paid into so that "some other people" (future generations) are not saddled with that payment. Do we want to talk about dividing that deficit up as a "head tax", so "we the people" all pay an equal amount? I didn't think so.

What can I say? I've voted third party almost every time, so maybe I get an exemption? I know, it doesn't work that way either. Really, the whole dang system isn't working very well, and I fear we are going to see some bad stuff, and maybe sooner than I ever thought. Similar to what is going on in other parts of the world, when some groups see that they are being threatened with cuts that are required to hold down the deficit, they can take actions like work stoppages and so forth. That becomes disruptive, and there isn't much you can do about it whether you retired on a 4% WR or a 2% WR. It could get ugly.

I'm getting the sense that the Constitutional Republic that our forefathers outlined just isn't up to the task of governing this country 200 years later. Too many politicians (and their supporters) have developed too many ways to "work the system" over the years.

Depressing.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Some thoughts from T. Jefferson:
"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."

Thanks for those quotes GusLevy.

It's a shame that Mr Jefferson didn't find an ironclad way to incorporate those principles into our Constitution.

-ERD50

 

[Pie Floater]

I can see that the villages in that area would still have smokey fires in the 90's. I never realized how bad the air was with coal fires until I left home from a small pit town in Durham and went to Bradford in 1973.

I know exactly the lifestyle you describe with going to work every day and going to the pub every night to get pi$$ed. I knew plenty similar folks growing up but my Dad was not like that thank goodness even though he was down the pit 6 days a week. It must have been very hard for you.

I've been in the centre of Bradford late at night many times in the 70's and in fact had my "stag night" there in 1976. (got the traffic cone etc). If it was bad back then I didn't really notice, but I don't doubt it was much worse in your time.

Back on topic, I don't see the USA following the UK in dramatic budget cutting any time soon. The USA doesn't have the same political system that allows it, and I expect the USA will nibble at the edges for a long time yet. Of course those nibbles will feel huge and dramatic but we won't see the sort of budget reform currently going on now in the UK, or as happened in the 80's under the Thatcher government.

Just wondering if you have been back to Bradford lately? And if you have, what you saw differently from the 70s? I was back there for a funeral in 2008. I was kinda surprised. So yeah, 10-15 years changes lots of things. And even Rippendon looked great in 2008 when I visited. Same pub, same garage, but no smoke as you would imagine and a lot cleaner looking. They were still using the same school just up from the pub, and there were some much nicer homes. But in general life looked like it was the same. Pub was full by work stoppage times.

Back to the topic, as Harley said, my contributions have gotten old. I just felt like defending the right to my expectation of collecting my due. I suspect you are right, nothing drastic will change but pushing the retirement ages up and cutting benefits seem counter productive to me. It's time to address other issues that would get more FICA paying workers into the system.

 

[sailor]

not like over in Ireland where "all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average,"

Lake Wobegon is in Minnesota, not Ireland... ( Lake Wobegon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

 

[Texas Proud]

That have been no coal belching chimneys in major cities since the late 60's due to the clean air act, and in 1993 the whole country went smokeless. I remember it well, growing up in the NE of England. I lived in the centre of Bradford from 1973 to 1976 and then at Odsal Top, a few miles out, in 1977 and there were definitely no rows of coal belching fires, the whole city was smokeless.

Rippendon and Rishworth are hardly representative of Bradford, Huddersfield and Halifax, and being rural, the clean air act will not have applied to them until 1993 so you may have been unlucky in that respect, although the transition to smokeless coal was pretty quick - my parent's terraced house was converted to smokeless a few years before Mam died in 1995.

Attached houses is hardly 3rd world, it comes from a population of over 40 million in an area the size of Louisiana, with large tracts set aside as National Parks (National Trust in England).

I have to agree with the "lager louts" spilling out from the pubs after closing time, but that is an endemic problem with all towns in the UK these days at weekends. It was a problem in the 80's and 90's and is MUCH worse now.

I think that it was the diesel... but when I lived in London the pollution was pretty bad... when you would have a runny nose, you would blow out black crap along with your normal stuff... diesels produce particulates and the whole place had a blackish tint... When I went up to Edinborough, there was this nice clean building... a museum... it was next to another part that was a lot darker... I asked someone at the museum about it and he said something like 'over time it will become the same color with the pollution'...

I can also say that the train rides were not great... I happend to live in the center of town, so it was not to bad for me, but my employees had some long commutes... one lived in Cambridge...

The loud drunks were terrible... since you did not have AC, in the summer you had to have your windows open and listen to them... I think it was required that a pub has to be within sight of another pub... I think that I had about 20 within a short walking distance from where I lived... and since I did not go to them... there might have been a few that I did not know about...

Sure, there are many problems with a lot of places here... but I would rather be here than there... (now, I would choose London over NYC... but that is another story)...

 

[harley]

One reason why British-style reforms won't make it over here until too late is the unwillingness to sacrifice at the highest levels. Why even the Queen is taking a pay cut.

Mr. Osborne promised annual savings of 7.1 percent in the budgets of local government councils and said there would be a freeze followed by a 14 percent cut in tax money allocated to maintaining Queen Elizabeth II’s household.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/21/world/europe/21britain.html I doubt we'll see our political leaders taking an across the boards decrease like that.

The more I see of the David Cameron/Nick Clegg coalition the more I like them. Feet on the ground is always better than head up the fundament.

 

[Alan]

Just wondering if you have been back to Bradford lately? And if you have, what you saw differently from the 70s? I was back there for a funeral in 2008. I was kinda surprised. So yeah, 10-15 years changes lots of things. And even Rippendon looked great in 2008 when I visited. Same pub, same garage, but no smoke as you would imagine and a lot cleaner looking. They were still using the same school just up from the pub, and there were some much nicer homes. But in general life looked like it was the same. Pub was full by work stoppage times.

I haven't been back to the center of Bradford since 1987, but I've been back to other places around about in recent years including one my favorite places to go when we lived in Bradford - Ilkley. Even my old home town where most of my family still live remains pretty much the same. Some of the old terraced houses have been pulled down and there have been lots of new housing built and some new pubs built but many of the old haunts still remain. (the last pit there closed in the 90's and it has gone through a big renewal, and is very "des res" these days - a beautiful place to visit with one the best places in the country for birds and wild flowers).

I think that it was the diesel... but when I lived in London the pollution was pretty bad... when you would have a runny nose, you would blow out black crap along with your normal stuff... diesels produce particulates and the whole place had a blackish tint... When I went up to Edinborough, there was this nice clean building... a museum... it was next to another part that was a lot darker... I asked someone at the museum about it and he said something like 'over time it will become the same color with the pollution'...

I can also say that the train rides were not great... I happend to live in the center of town, so it was not to bad for me, but my employees had some long commutes... one lived in Cambridge...

The loud drunks were terrible... since you did not have AC, in the summer you had to have your windows open and listen to them... I think it was required that a pub has to be within sight of another pub... I think that I had about 20 within a short walking distance from where I lived... and since I did not go to them... there might have been a few that I did not know about...

Sure, there are many problems with a lot of places here... but I would rather be here than there... (now, I would choose London over NYC... but that is another story)...

I can't really comment on living in London as I never spent more than a couple of nights there when I lived in England. We did have a week in London this summer, staying in a student dorm on the south bank of the Thames, right next to the Tate Modern close to County Hall, Tower Hill, St Paul's and the Houses of Parliament, and was very impressed.

Very clean and a nice place to be. We walked most everywhere we wanted to go and avoided all the main attractions as we've seen them before, and in the evenings we ate out at the many restaurants and cafes and pubs. May be we are too old for staying out late enough to see lots of lager louts staggering about, I'm sure there are plenty places to go and see that spectacle. We went on several "London Walks" including one that took us on a pub crawl and everywhere was very civilized indeed.
http://www.walks.com/

We had our window open the whole week as it was quite warm (for England) and were never bothered by noise, which was a pleasant surprise from when I worked on a project in London in 1984. I often would have to spend a night or 2 in walking distance of County Hall and I had to choose between stifling heat or have the window open and put up with the noise including rowdy revelers.

 

[Alan]

One reason why British-style reforms won't make it over here until too late is the unwillingness to sacrifice at the highest levels. Why even the Queen is taking a pay cut. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/21/world/europe/21britain.html I doubt we'll see our political leaders taking an across the boards decrease like that.

The more I see of the David Cameron/Nick Clegg coalition the more I like them. Feet on the ground is always better than head up the fundament.

We spent 10 weeks there from June through mid-August and the mood of the folks was that they knew that a bad dose of fiscal medicine was coming their way, but that it was needed. This is the first coalition government since the Churchill coalition of 1940 and they are calling on that wartime spirit to come to the fore, and for the country to do what is needed to get back to a solid financial footing.

I don't expect to see the same level of strikes and union actions that were seen in the 80's when Mrs Thatcher pushed through her reforms, and not like we are seeing in France. Of course I could be completely wrong.

The fact that this is a coalition government is a great opportunity because if a single party had won the election they were on a hiding to nothing, and probably would be out of power for a long time to come afterwards. If it works out well, then in 5 years time both the Liberals and Tories will be claiming credit, and if it fails to solve the problems then they can blame each other for diliuting the policies they would have put in place had they been in power themselves.

 

[Pie Floater]

I really wonder what it would take here in the US to cause people to take to the streets. Well, to try to impose the will of the people on the government, because it doesn't seem to take much to get a good liquor store looting going.

 

[M Paquette]

I really wonder what it would take here in the US to cause people to take to the streets. Well, to try to impose the will of the people on the government, because it doesn't seem to take much to get a good liquor store looting going.

Pretty easy. Cut subsidies for ethanol and ranching activity, and remove the use of eminent domain to secure private pipeline right-of-way, and you'll see a tremendous spontaneous grass roots movement take to the streets. I bet it'll even be supported by Americans for Prosperity, the well known grass-roots organization.

 

[haha]

Browsing this forum "discussion" while we currently live in an increasingly fractured and polarized political climate in the USA makes me chuckle, mixed with a concomitant feeling of unease. I am reminded that Rome ultimately fell when it could not support the financial and pension obligations - the modern pension system was originated by the Roman Empire - of it's expanded empire only after several generations of raising taxes became the only tool that could be applied to stall the inevitable collapse. Ironically, the Germans allowed the last Roman Emperor to live out his final days on a nice pension!

Some thoughts from T. Jefferson:
"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."

And, after someone mentioned Rawls, a thought from Norman Thomas (Socialist Party of America leader in '30s):
"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism, but under the name of Liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program until one day America will be a Socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened."

Beautiful. It seems to me that perhaps more than half of the posting members here are to the left of the midline, if libertarianism is the right pole, and a thoroughgoing capitalist/welfare society like Sweden is the left pole.

I don't really understand this. Like you say, allowing non-producers to live off producers always fails in the long term. But then, for a US Congressman, or even president, the long term is really not a concern. And people are good at justifying what either helps them materially, or gives them psychic income. At the government level, there is way more intellectual cleverness deployed on manipulating, justifying and selling redistribution schemes, than on understanding how to produce more.

Society is cyclical, and I believe that the old idea of societies having a vigorous youth, a comfortable maturity, and then a decline into a corrupt and senescent final stage is correct.

I would say it's 3 to 1 against us having the intellectual insight, political means, and drive to turn around the ship now heading for the rocks.

Ha

 

[dex]

Society is cyclical, and I believe that the old idea of societies having a vigorous youth, a comfortable maturity, and then a decline into a corrupt and senescent final stage is correct.

Ha

I agree.

We do not learn from history; just repeat it from the individual level to the national. The next level will be the world level - maybe a couple hundred years in the future. Where the national vigorous youth, a comfortable maturity, and then a decline into a corrupt and senescent final stage will be repeated.

The thread can now be closed.

 

[GregLee]

... allowing non-producers to live off producers always fails in the long term.

Is that a fact? Or just a wish.

 

[Emeritus]

Lake Wobegon is in Minnesota, not Ireland... ( Lake Wobegon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

also Wiki

Metaphor is the concept of understanding one thing in terms of another. A metaphor is a figure of speech that constructs an analogy between two things or ideas; the analogy is conveyed by the use of a metaphorical word in place of some other word. For example: "Her eyes were glistening jewels".
Metaphor also denotes rhetorical figures of speech that achieve their effects via association, comparison or resemblance (e.g., antithesis, hyperbole, metonymy and simile, which are all types of metaphor