Bathroom Renovation - Unexpected Events

[ivinsfan]

Mayberry, USA. Not knocking it, it sounds rather nice. But not representative of the entire nation.

Maybe it's Mayberry but I also think it leads to a pretty good self correcting system Bad businesses and bad customers expose themselves pretty quickly. Word gets around.

 

[Jerry1]

You can and should have a contract. No question. However, as a practical matter when it comes to issues, they're basically worthless.

A contract won't prevent anything (poor workmanship, not finishing the job on time, collateral damage during construction). The best it might do is make sure everyone is on the same page on what is expected (white appliances, not SS). It won't make resolving any issues easier - once the problem arises, the solution will have pros and cons and that won't be in the contract. You'll just have to work through it.

If you find yourself in court, you'll be lucky if the contractor even shows up. Sure the judge will appreciate your contract, but you'd probably win the judgement anyway - now go collect it (you won't).

Contractor is a relationship business. You either found a good contractor and you maintain a good relationship with them or you don't. The contract will not have much impact on that. The best thing you can do is be present and hope to catch things before they get too far. As is seen in this thread and in my experience, once something is done incorrectly, pointing to a contract is not going to resolve the issue. You're relationship and negotiation skills will carry the day.

 

[Vincenzo Corleone]

You can and should have a contract. No question. However, as a practical matter when it comes to issues, they're basically worthless.

A contract won't prevent anything (poor workmanship, not finishing the job on time, collateral damage during construction). The best it might do is make sure everyone is on the same page on what is expected (white appliances, not SS). It won't make resolving any issues easier - once the problem arises, the solution will have pros and cons and that won't be in the contract. You'll just have to work through it.

If you find yourself in court, you'll be lucky if the contractor even shows up. Sure the judge will appreciate your contract, but you'd probably win the judgement anyway - now go collect it (you won't).

Contractor is a relationship business. You either found a good contractor and you maintain a good relationship with them or you don't. The contract will not have much impact on that. The best thing you can do is be present and hope to catch things before they get too far. As is seen in this thread and in my experience, once something is done incorrectly, pointing to a contract is not going to resolve the issue. You're relationship and negotiation skills will carry the day.

Completely agree. The comfort I find in having a contract is the breakdown of milestones to hit and the payment schedule. I have fears - founded or unfounded - a contractor can demolish a place then demand $X amount of money to continue, making it sort of a ransom; or the contractor not finishing the job unless you pay $X amount of money above and beyond what was initially agreed upon. And, well, I'm inexperienced with these things and being inexperienced I find comfort in having a contract. Being involved in a transaction like this (thousands of dollars) as someone who is inexperienced with someone who's plenty experienced makes the inexperienced party an easy mark.

I'm just thinking - if the contractor had a problem with that, he should have said so long ago.

 

[CO-guy]

I understand and appreciate your input. And I'm sorry if my tone was inappropriate. The thought of having to apologize for simply wanting a signed contract grates on my nerves.

I know the feeling, but actions based on those feelings come at a cost.

I've been the customer/client, the contractor, and the subcontractor on projects with and without detailed contracts that have taken a bad turn, and I have never taken or been taken to court. Much of my consulting work involves stepping into projects that are in trouble, performing triage, trying to salvage as much value as possible from existing contracts, and minimize costs bringing the project to completion.

Right now I'm actually starting a project (as a sub) for a PM that I last worked with in 2017 when she vanished on another project. I assume it was a medical issue, but literally she just stopped responding to emails, texts/calls, etc. Eventually the client hired another PM to finish out the project. Doubtful I'll ever learn what happened to her in 2017, but she specifically requested me and we're back working together for the same client again.

 

[Sunset]

Did you have to provide proof of funds to the contractor, was my question.


A neighbor is tiling contractor and a good one. Lots of expensive machinery. He happened to mention that he did a LARGE pattern tilting project for some farmer and when it was virtually done the farmer mentioned he didn't actually have the money to pay him but he was "working" on it. The tiling plant charges out the tile itself to the contractor so my friend was caught flat footed and actually out of pocket. I don't know what actually ended up happening but I do know it was a 6 figure bill.

This is where a contractor has an advantage, in that he can put a lien on the property very cheaply to ensure he will get paid someday with interest.
He knows where the farmer lives.

A contract would have helped, as it could have stated payment point in the work. Like when supplies dropped off payment of 10%.

I had a roofing contractor ask that once, when supplies delivered I pay $X , then 50% on day they show up and work, and rest when job done.

I look at a contract as a way to detail and clarify the work and timetable

 

[ivinsfan]

This is where a contractor has an advantage, in that he can put a lien on the property very cheaply to ensure he will get paid someday with interest.
He knows where the farmer lives.

A contract would have helped, as it could have stated payment point in the work. Like when supplies dropped off payment of 10%.

I had a roofing contractor ask that once, when supplies delivered I pay $X , then 50% on day they show up and work, and rest when job done.

I look at a contract as a way to detail and clarify the work and timetable

Very often a farm doesn't change hands until an owner dies so a lien doesn't do much. Of course the tiling community is pretty small so you'll only get one bite at the 'free' tiling

 

[RobbieB]

I understand why contracts are good, but I also know why they are a pain.

They always change.

During our cement work we changed the design 3 times. The guy re-did it 3 times. I think he bumped the price a couple of times to cover the cost of re-doing the contract.

Every job I've hired (with any degree of creativity) had "changes on the fly", "stuff that came up", other stuff that "needed to be fixed", yeah, stuff.

Not talking about jobs like "replace the HVAC" or "solar on the roof", just custom stuff.

 

[rodi]

Completely agree. The comfort I find in having a contract is the breakdown of milestones to hit and the payment schedule. I have fears - founded or unfounded - a contractor can demolish a place then demand $X amount of money to continue, making it sort of a ransom; or the contractor not finishing the job unless you pay $X amount of money above and beyond what was initially agreed upon. And, well, I'm inexperienced with these things and being inexperienced I find comfort in having a contract. Being involved in a transaction like this (thousands of dollars) as someone who is inexperienced with someone who's plenty experienced makes the inexperienced party an easy mark.

I'm just thinking - if the contractor had a problem with that, he should have said so long ago.

This is what happened to us. Milestones clearly laid out. We'd given progress payments as milestones were met - and actually gave a big payment ($20k) before a milestone was met because the contractor misled us about what had been completed. We discovered that right before the contractor asked for another payment ($30k) and we pointed out we were $20k ahead and the $30k he was asking for did not align with any completed milestones. He walked off the job and refused to return.

The contract provided documentation for our settlement (which he did *not* pay in full). It provided documentation to collect on his bond.

We were left with a dangerous situation of a foundation form dug, rebar laid, and no concrete. Rebar sticking up so if someone tripped, we'd have liability. Trenches dug, so if it rained, they'd collapse in. We ended up hiring the sub directly to finish the foundation till we could find another contractor. (That's the sub that had actually given us the preliminary work notice, and hit is with a lien, which was released after we paid them.

We contacted the state licensing board (which is *very* reluctant to act. There was more than enough documentation and the state attorney got involved. We also collected his bond. He eventually lost his license.

Were we punitive? No - we still lost money (over $100k because new contractor charged extra for picking up the job midway. Original contractor moved out of state and is contracting in his new state.

 

[Vincenzo Corleone]

This is what happened to us. Milestones clearly laid out. We'd given progress payments as milestones were met - and actually gave a big payment ($20k) before a milestone was met because the contractor misled us about what had been completed. We discovered that right before the contractor asked for another payment ($30k) and we pointed out we were $20k ahead and the $30k he was asking for did not align with any completed milestones. He walked off the job and refused to return.

The contract provided documentation for our settlement (which he did *not* pay in full). It provided documentation to collect on his bond.

We were left with a dangerous situation of a foundation form dug, rebar laid, and no concrete. Rebar sticking up so if someone tripped, we'd have liability. Trenches dug, so if it rained, they'd collapse in. We ended up hiring the sub directly to finish the foundation till we could find another contractor. (That's the sub that had actually given us the preliminary work notice, and hit is with a lien, which was released after we paid them.

We contacted the state licensing board (which is *very* reluctant to act. There was more than enough documentation and the state attorney got involved. We also collected his bond. He eventually lost his license.

Were we punitive? No - we still lost money (over $100k because new contractor charged extra for picking up the job midway. Original contractor moved out of state and is contracting in his new state.

Wow - sorry you had to go through that. That must have been a nightmare!

 

[Bamaman]

My daughter recently had a bathroom torn out and a new one installed (slab home.) She ended up spending $8,500 plus $3,000 to a glass company for shower glass.

I honestly don't know how so much money can be spent in so few square feet--and not look like something out of a magazine.

I've done a lot of tile work over the years building bathrooms and laying porcelain tile on a couple of large screen porches. Doing tile work is just not that difficult if you're willing to get your hands dirty.

I'm in the process of tiling a new master bathroom floor and rebuilding a shower stall in another bathroom. Today, I'm steaming off wallpaper so I can paint before doing the tile work. This is just a little side project since I'm retired and my time is free. The floor's costing $200 and the shower stall may cost about the same since I'm using the same glass door over.

 

[Koolau]

I've signed a lot of contracts in my day and have never been to court. Even where there is a dispute, it may not be cost-effective for either side to litigate.

The reason I like contracts is that they make explicit what were often unstated assumptions. What is included, what is not included, schedule dates, etc. Often during the development of a statement of work, mismatching assumptions are discovered. ("Oh, you wanted a toilet in that bathroom?")

Good fences make good neighbors.

My favorite contract issue:

"Garage floor to be no more than 4 inches of concrete." As my friend pointed out to the contractor, 1/2 inch of concrete would be acceptable under such a contract. Contract was fixed (and many other things) before signing. YMMV

 

[KarenF]

Don't be alone in the house, good gravy.. OP started out by saying he had a bizarre phone call with the contractor. There was a lot more to it. No reason on earth to expect physical violence from the contractor. They should both hold up their heads and just finish it out.

I read the don't be alone specifically to have a witness to avoid he said/she said. That is good advice given the description.

 

[Deuce]

As a retired GC it’s my understanding that it’s illegal in most States to not have a contract.

 

[Koolau]

As a retired GC it’s my understanding that it’s illegal in most States to not have a contract.

I think that's one reason many projects - especially at the home level - avoid using a GC. Time and material or so much for each "j*b" is how most projects are accomplished through handyman type folks in the Islands - though YMMV.

 

[Sunset]

I now favor contracts as it just spells out clearly what is being done.

My story, a fellow I know says he can build a small septic field for me, and as he has 5 other fields to do, it will help him work out the issues. He said he would do it for $x.
no contract involved.

So after not starting the job for 2 months, he shows up, works intermittently, has it 1/2 done and presents me with a bill of nearly 1.5 times the agreed price and says it's the cost so far !

I paid him the original price, but no more, and he has stopped working.

Now, I'll be hiring some workers and finishing it myself.

 

[OldShooter]

My favorite contract issue:

"Garage floor to be no more than 4 inches of concrete." As my friend pointed out to the contractor, 1/2 inch of concrete would be acceptable under such a contract. Contract was fixed (and many other things) before signing. YMMV

The fact that one can write a stupid contract is no reason to avoid trying to write a good one. And contracts do not have to be fancy. I look to get the major items and major assumptions documented. In the process of doing that, one can gauge the vendor's attitude. A good one will be enthusiastic about getting things on paper. Someone who resists is probably not a good choice for the job.

In my many years of project management it has become increasingly clear the the problems usually arise in the "cracks" between major responsibility areas and in incompatible assumptions. For example, "I thought you were going to provide the toilet."

 

[Koolau]

The fact that one can write a stupid contract is no reason to avoid trying to write a good one. And contracts do not have to be fancy. I look to get the major items and major assumptions documented. In the process of doing that, one can gauge the vendor's attitude. A good one will be enthusiastic about getting things on paper. Someone who resists is probably not a good choice for the job.

In my many years of project management it has become increasingly clear the the problems usually arise in the "cracks" between major responsibility areas and in incompatible assumptions. For example, "I thought you were going to provide the toilet."

We actually think the same way on this subject. You just have to read the contract (and be ready to reject/modify) before signing.

 

[OldShooter]

... You just have to read the contract (and be ready to reject/modify) before signing.

Actually, I find most of the value to be in jointly developing a statement of work and defining responsibilities. Then I don't have to read it at the end because I wrote it. Both parties own the same thing (or should). I haven't found that a bunch of Ts and Cs add much value to a small residential project.