Boeing criminal settlement for 737 Max

[ivinsfan]

I noticed this was announced yesterday in the middle of crazy news cycle.

No criminal charges for any individual and they simply pay a 2.5 billion fine..maybe they will use some of the over 17 billion they got in the COVID bailout.

Am I the only one that thinks this was a big nothing burger, slap on the wrist type thing?...


They might as well just nationalize Boeing and be done with it.

 

[Chuckanut]

Well, Boeing got an a Billion dollars more than SpaceX to build an equivalent manned spacecraft. SpaceX's Crew Dragon is currently in service with more manned flights scheduled for this year. Boeing's Starliner has still to make its first successful unmanned flight.


Perhaps they can pay the fine with the extra Billion. It didn't' seem to do much good.

 

[RetiredAtThirty-eight]

Well, Boeing got an a Billion dollars more than SpaceX to build an equivalent manned spacecraft. SpaceX's Crew Dragon is currently in service with more manned flights scheduled for this year. Boeing's Starliner has still to make its first successful unmanned flight.


Perhaps they can pay the fine with the extra Billion. It didn't' seem to do much good.

Sad but true... It seems the MBA types wrested control and ability to influence away from the engineers which basically converted the company into a mere shadow of it's former self in under two decades.

 

[SecondCor521]

I remember visiting Boeing HQ for a business trip back in the mid-90's. We were there to show off a new feature of our product which I helped develop. Boeing bought a large number of our devices.

When I was there, I was impressed by their engineering prowess, so I joked that I bet they could probably find the drawings and specs for a bolt on the wing of an original B-52. Without batting an eye, the Boing engineers basically said there was no probably about it and acted like that was something every engineering firm should be able to do.

Coming from software "engineering" where code written 18 months ago had maybe a 10% chance of having documentation and/or being able to figure out who wrote it, I was impressed. From that experience I still don't think what I did was engineering in the true sense of the word.

(*) I don't actually know if they used bolts on B-52 wings.

 

[Koolau]

I noticed this was announced yesterday in the middle of crazy news cycle.

No criminal charges for any individual and they simply pay a 2.5 billion fine..maybe they will use some of the over 17 billion they got in the COVID bailout.

Am I the only one that thinks this was a big nothing burger, slap on the wrist type thing?...


They might as well just nationalize Boeing and be done with it.

I'd like to think you are joking, but perhaps you are not. Boeing is no longer your "father's Boeing" but gummints typically don't do "complex" as well as greedy corporations. YMMV

 

[ivinsfan]

I'd like to think you are joking, but perhaps you are not. Boeing is no longer your "father's Boeing" but gummints typically don't do "complex" as well as greedy corporations. YMMV

Boeing should have had someone sent to jail over this...

 

[phil1ben]

Don't mean to hijack this thread but does anyone wonder where all these fines and penalties really go? I realize some of it is to recoup prosecution costs. OK, that makes sense to me.....but how about the rest. I read in the WSJ everyday about multiple fines of 100MM here a billion dollars there -- but how are these funds used? You can't say they are budgeted for because they cannot be determined in advance. Ultimately we all pay these fines because they are ultimately passed down to the consumer. These fines are over and above compensation to the poor families.

It would be nice to see an annual reconciliation of fines and penalties and see how they were applied and if they are held in suspense accounts.

 

[Koolau]

Boeing should have had someone sent to jail over this...

You're probably right, though I haven't followed the story closely. BUT, my concern is letting the gummint have TOO much power within a company. If you disagree, I'm okay with that since YMMV.

 

[Koolau]

Don't mean to hijack this thread but does anyone wonder where all these fines and penalties really go? I realize some of it is to recoup prosecution costs. OK, that makes sense to me.....but how about the rest. I read in the WSJ everyday about multiple fines of 100MM here a billion dollars there -- but how are these funds used? You can't say they are budgeted for because they cannot be determined in advance. Ultimately we all pay these fines because they are ultimately passed down to the consumer. These fines are over and above compensation to the poor families.

It would be nice to see an annual reconciliation of fines and penalties and see how they were applied and if they are held in suspense accounts.

I keep going back in my mind, thinking about the way the Tobacco settlement money was spent. I recall fire trucks and bullet proof vests, but can't recall any smoking session programs though my memory isn't what it used to be. YMMV

 

[ivinsfan]

You're probably right, though I haven't followed the story closely. BUT, my concern is letting the gummint have TOO much power within a company. If you disagree, I'm okay with that since YMMV.

Well I think Boeing and the government are already in each others business and just pretending otherwise..IOW nationalized in everything but name. Because Boeing knows they are too important to fail..

 

[explanade]

I didn't see a discussion for this.

737 Max 9 grounded after emergency door plug blew out as an Alaska Air flight climbed to 16k feet.

Nobody hurt, some items were blown out the door, including the clothes on a boy and an iPhone which survived the fall.

But they were fortunate. The door plug could have hit a stabilizer or an engine and caused a catastrophe with the plane. Or hit someone below.

It's not getting a lot of attention because there weren't any casualties but apparently some bad manufacturing processes slipped through.

The aircraft went through final approvals in September and was certified for flight only in November.

Now there's talk that they will no longer allow parents to hold infants and toddlers in their hands on flights.

All the 737 Max variants have sold well around the world. There are hundreds or thousands in service since the design was re-certified after the crashes.

There is no chance of the aircraft being permanently grounded or removed from service. It would disrupt air travel for years, probably take over a decade to replace them.

Way too much money invested.

So you roll the dice flying on a retrofitted design of a decades old airframe, as opposed to a "clean sheet" design.

I've flown it once. Being a relatively new aircraft, the seats were nice.

 

[RetiredAndLovingIt]

I was confused at your post till I realized the original post was from 2021 and the previous 737 problems.

This new incident is getting a lot of attention especially as they keep releasing more details and video.
I don't fly much but if/when I do I will probably try to avoid flying Boeing period.
This is just the scariest thing ever. It's just a miracle that no one was killed. What if a mom with a baby was sitting anywhere close, I shudder to think.

 

[Out of Steam]

For several years, I've been of the opinion that Boeing has already designed its last commercial passenger aircraft. It seems unimaginable that they could design and build a safe, clean-sheet replacement for the Boeing 737.

 

[explanade]

For several years, I've been of the opinion that Boeing has already designed its last commercial passenger aircraft. It seems unimaginable that they could design and build a safe, clean-sheet replacement for the Boeing 737.

My understanding is that it would have taken them too long and would have been out of the market for a decade or more, ceding it completely to AB.

So they found a way to get something out as quickly as they can.

None of the executives who made this initial decision or decisions since are walking away poor or subject to any kind of legal liability.

 

[sengsational]

This might be a good deal for budget travel. Some entrepreneur could buy these planes for a song, and call it "Brave Airlines"

 

[VanWinkle]

I noticed this was announced yesterday in the middle of crazy news cycle.

No criminal charges for any individual and they simply pay a 2.5 billion fine..maybe they will use some of the over 17 billion they got in the COVID bailout.

Am I the only one that thinks this was a big nothing burger, slap on the wrist type thing?...


They might as well just nationalize Boeing and be done with it.

Technology is complicated, not necessarily criminal! Life in the U.S. without
Boeing would be far different than you would suspect. Large companies are the targets of many, some without merit. Criminal convictions will not change the problems of large companies but will make some of us feel better.

VW

 

[razztazz]

Criminal convictions will not change the problems of large companies

Alright, then. Go for it. Everything stays the same but at least those who got it coming will get it. No downside.


Or..... the problems of large companies are caused by the people who run them. Change their behavior.

 

[ivinsfan]

Technology is complicated, not necessarily criminal! Life in the U.S. without
Boeing would be far different than you would suspect. Large companies are the targets of many, some without merit. Criminal convictions will not change the problems of large companies but will make some of us feel better.

VW

Well I'm sure the families of the people killed on the 737 Max would disagree read up on the history of that airplane when you have a few minutes...

 

[VanWinkle]

Alright, then. Go for it. Everything stays the same but at least those who got it coming will get it. No downside.


Or..... the problems of large companies are caused by the people who run them. Change their behavior.

You think there has been no downside for corporate leadership, board members, or employees due to the problems that have occurred. You
change their behavior!!

 

[Koolau]

Here's a takeaway I haven't yet seen. This incident while scary as all get out caused no casualties (other than perhaps some ruined underwear.) It revealed a serious flaw which can now be addressed.

It amazes the heck out of me that airline travel continues to get SAFER even as more and more flights are added to crowded skies and airports. Air travel (with all it's unpleasantness of late - can you recall bus travel?) is safer, cheaper, more efficient, more planet friendly (per passenger mile) than cars, ships, trains, buses, bicycles, walking, etc.

It seems inevitable that as we change out our aging fleet, there will be glitches as everything gets more and more complex and more energy efficient. Picture the 1949 Frigidaire refrigerator my DW's parent used until 2005. It never missed a beat, never needed a service call, never quit. BUT, it used (SWAG) 3 times the electricity of a current modern refrigerator - which lasts maybe 10 years if you're lucky and needs one or two service calls.

This is NOT a defense of shoddy manufacturing nor designing in flaws. BUT, the march of progress is replete with such "teething problems" as we move toward lower carbon footprint and increased energy efficiency even as aircraft fly faster and safer - in general.

Does anyone recall the Comet disasters of the early 50s? I'm just old enough to recall the headlines in the newspaper and our monthly(??) news reels at school and at the theaters. MUCH has changed since then in transportation - most of it good at least in terms of cost and especially safety. That things still go wrong (even stupidly, occasionally) can't be a big surprise to us, I hope.

Heh, heh, you all recall the DC-10 engine falling off, ca 1979, right? DW and I flew as tourists on a DC-10 after that incident. She was freaked but I told her "This is THE most inspected plane in the US fleet of aircraft. It's likely the safest aircraft for that reason." She settled down after that. The air fleet (especially in the USA) is clearly STILL the safest way to travel and likely will become more so over time - with some "glitches" along the way.

Returning you now...

 

[SecondCor521]

^ There were 357 deaths worldwide on airplanes in 2022. More people died in car accidents in Nevada the year before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviat...ts#Bureau_of_Aircraft_Accidents_Archives_(B3A)
https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/state-by-state#fatal-crash-totals

 

[MichealKnight]

Company culture

Disclosure: Long Boeing. It's a decent sized holding for me, cost basis is around $199. I actually added some after this news at around 220.

BUT I remember back when I bought telling a friend: We're not done hearing crap out of Boeing only because - I believe that such a rotten corporate culture isn't just one or two people....but rather, it spreads sideways and downwards too.

Most of my business life I was associated with (did not work for them) but a corporation with a well known crappy culture. And man - it wasn't;'t just CEOs....but it trickled down to the field reps excuse they always saw their bosses being ignorant jerks----so they emulated it. So the n bought the shares I kind of knew we're nit out of the woods.

Here we are now. If there's any other problems I wish they'd kitchen sink it, just put it out now.

Long term: Duopoly. And there's a half billion people who will be joining the middle class, and jet demand will continue to be strong - hence my continued hold.

It's a pity -- until a few years ago I was mister red-white-and-blue to a fault. But truth be told for a few years now - I purposely pick out flights that are on an Airbus plane if I can help it, and wouldn't have gone on a MAX for free.

 

[Koolau]

^ There were 357 deaths worldwide on airplanes in 2022. More people died in car accidents in Nevada the year before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviat...ts#Bureau_of_Aircraft_Accidents_Archives_(B3A)
https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/state-by-state#fatal-crash-totals

Thanks for the stats. I'm too lazy tonight, but would love to see side by side stats on deaths/million passenger miles between the various modes of transport. IIRC trains are one of the worst but don't quote me - I've been wrong before. In any case, so glad that air is so relatively safe as I do more miles in the air than on the ground. (Probably about 10K/year vs 6K.) YMMV