Hi there, 60ys old with two more years left in the rat race

Mlib24

Confused about dryer sheets
Joined
Jan 24, 2024
Messages
6
Hello everyone,

Great information gathered here! With that said, I was looking for some information regarding HSA's vs Social Security benefits. Quick history: My wife (61yrs old) took time off to raise our kids at 29, and then went back into the workforce 16 years later. During those early years she was making 20-30k. Fast forward, she currently earns 50k. She currently contributes the max (Pre tax) to an HSA(8k+) . The question I have is...would we be better not contributing to the HSA . The reasing is Yes, the benefit is less taxes paid for that tax year however her social security benefits wont increase.

This question could also apply to anyone taking the HSA pretaxed.

Thank you
 
Welcome to the forum!

I don't know if it is best or not, but you have another option. She could NOT have her contributions to her HSA deducted from her paycheck. Then she would pay SS tax on the whole paycheck, with the concomitant increase in SS benefit. Then you can fund the HSA separately, with after-tax money. This gets you the HSA deduction on your income taxes.
 
Thank you Out to lunch..... I will see if she has that option.
 
Is she going to file SS on her own earnings or take 1/2 of yours ? If she does not have 35 good years in the system this is something to consider.

DW and I have a substantial HSA and it is very comforting now that we are ER'd and not on medicare. We both hit our high deductibles this year and it was nice to be able to tap the HSA tax free. We have enough in the HSA to fund our maximum out of pocket expenses til we're both on medicare. Its good peace of mind.

Take the tax savings from the HSA contribution and invest it and use it to subsidize any lower SS check in the future, plus the HSA can be invested and withdrawn tax free after 65.
 
Just as a rule of thumb for an individual claim: FICA taxes are a good/great "investment" below the 1st bend point, a so/so "investment" between the 1st and 2nd bend point and a poor investment above the 2nd bend point. And a total loss when you have 35 years paid in at greater than your current indexed earnings. And for people who will have spousal benefits in addition to their own record, FICA taxes are always a loss.

So if you are asking about the strategy of using or not using HSA payroll deductions to avoid FICA taxes - it depends. Where is she on the bend points and what does her spousal & survivor look like ?

If it was me, I'd just use the payroll deductions and be done with it. Most likely that is the optimal answer as well.
 
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Another factor to consider is whether her SS benefits will even be based on her work record or will they be 50% of your PIA. How does her PIA compare to your PIA?

Does her employer provide or match contributions and how would that change if she contributed independently. IIRC if you change from her contributing via payroll then your income taxes will be higher.
 
Amazing responses...thank you all!!

First, my wife works at a hospital and they contribute 2k to the plan. She's looking at appx a $6,500 earning differential for SS by taking it out pretax. Since her earlier work record is a lot less than what she currently makes, each year would add to the benefit.

Regarding her SS benefit, she will make more than 1/2 of mine however I'd like to squeeze out as much as I can if it makes sense to.

Secondly, Yes, I plan on taking SS at 62 and my wife at 63 respectively. We currently are in a distribution phase (started at 59.5) of an annuity that provides appx 72k in income. Our plan is to use our Roth Savings (about 300k) between retirement and medicare in order to get a low cost ACA plan and live our current lifestyle. The annuity money is/will be being banked to offset the Roth withdrawals. We also have another 200k in an traditional IRA

Finally, our house and cars are paid off.

It may not be the best plan, but we are seeing friend and acquaintances on the wrong side of the life trade...if you know what I mean. We want to enjoy life while we can appreciate it.

I understand its only 2 years away, but any way we can save or make some more $$ from now until retirement is obviously a priority.
 
Amazing responses...thank you all!!

...
Secondly, Yes, I plan on taking SS at 62 and my wife at 63 respectively. We currently are in a distribution phase (started at 59.5) of an annuity that provides appx 72k in income. Our plan is to use our Roth Savings (about 300k) between retirement and medicare in order to get a low cost ACA plan and live our current lifestyle. The annuity money is/will be being banked to offset the Roth withdrawals. We also have another 200k in an traditional IRA

.......

If you are truly banking the annuity money, then it would be better to use the banked money, instead of the Roth money.
Reason being, all income from Roth money is tax free, and is a valuable savings vehicle.

I don't know what the ACA limits are, so no idea if $72K is too much or not..someone else will know.

I'm wondering, do you know how much you will spend in retirement ?
Have you tracked your expenses ?
 
I was never in an HSA, so the FICA reduction was news to me. I'd never been aware of this. The things I learn on ER forums are amazing.
 
I'd suggest that you use a PIA calculator to look at your wife's SS with HSA contributions through payroll or direct (paid by you outside of payroll) and decide whether the increase in SS is worth paying the extra SS taxes.
 
If you are truly banking the annuity money, then it would be better to use the banked money, instead of the Roth money.
Reason being, all income from Roth money is tax free, and is a valuable savings vehicle.

I don't know what the ACA limits are, so no idea if $72K is too much or not..someone else will know.

I'm wondering, do you know how much you will spend in retirement ?
Have you tracked your expenses ?

Great questions:

Yes, we are banking the Annuity as this is part of the strategy to retire at 62

We do track our spending and its about net 100k +/- per year. We should be receiving around net 38k in SS (unless the gov screws ups) plus around 10K in dividends. Note: I have inflated spending yearly by 4% so retirement needs will be 108k +/- when we actually retire.

Regarding ACA limits, the more you make the less you qualify for benefits so by tapping the Roth for appx 69k (as opposed to drawing from IRA and paying taxes) I can save overall 17k yearly (see below). The premiums on the ACA are $1,400 total vs paying taxes on the 69k which would be around 10k (using an effective tax rate of 15%) PLUS the additional premium.


*ACA Numbers Income Premiums
45k $1,400 yearly
108k $9,180 yearly

*Obtained ACA numbers from: KFF -Health Insurance Marketplace Calculator

-
Taxes ACA Premium Total
69K IRA $10,000 $9,180 $19,180.
60K Roth 0.00 $1,400 $1,400
DELTA $17,780

I learned about this strategy from GoCurrycracker (https://www.gocurrycracker.com/)

Theoretically on a spreadsheet our money should last until 85....inflation adjusted. If the market has a hic-cup (as it will) we will just have to re-evaluate our spending.

Please poke holes in this strategy (or give options) as that is why we are all here..to listen and learn!
 
The question that several of us have for you is that why are you drawing on ROTH when you have money from the Annuity? Why are you not spending the Annuity money? We are not questioning ROTH vs. IRA.
 
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The question that several of us have for you is that why are you drawing on ROTH when you have money from the Annuity? Why are you not spending the Annuity money? .....

+1

Also, I have to question your SS choice:

One of you will probably live to age 90+ , that is a fact unless you both have early death by disease in the family, or a current health issue to shorten lifespan.

Which means the higher earner would get more SS money by delaying SS instead of taking it at age 62. This higher amount is also received by the spouse, if the higher earner dies (instead of their own low SS).

The advantage of a delayed SS is, it is an annuity that has COLA, (cost of living adjustment) , so each year the paid amount goes up by inflation when collecting for life.

My thinking on it is: If you have $Millions then take it whenever, but if only have a few hundred thousands saved, you can delay for X years by spending some savings, that is a better bet, due to the COLA and Survivor Benefits, and lifetime payments.

People who have no savings, have to take it at age 62.
 
The question that several of us have for you is that why are you drawing on ROTH when you have money from the Annuity? Why are you not spending the Annuity money? We are not questioning ROTH vs. IRA.

Thanks for the questions/feedback:

I had a Defined benefit plan when I owned my own business and then rolled the money into an Annuity when I closed it...so its a-qualified annuity and the distributions will be taxed as ordinary income...that's the rub.

Regarding living to 90 and working for max SS, the DW and myself understand that position. The realty for us, however, is we would rather play hard and enjoy the things when we are younger then hope our health is as good as it now. With that said, we have a good friend who worked until 70 so his wife (a teacher) would get his Max SS should he pass. Well, she ended up passing less than 3 months after he retired and he regrets that decision to this day. On the flip side I also have an Uncle who just turned 90. He has slowed way down in the last 10 years but to your point, he is 90.

Taking SS is obviously a personal (and financial) decision. To us, we made some descent financial decisions that will allow us to retire at 62/63. Will we live the Country club lifestyle? No, but we will be able to afford the things we currently do now. I have not read any comments from someone who took SS at 62 wishing they had worked longer.

If we do hit 80'sh and the money runs out or a curve comes our way, Plan "B" is our kids ....lol!
 
Thanks for the questions/feedback:

I had a Defined benefit plan when I owned my own business and then rolled the money into an Annuity when I closed it...so its a-qualified annuity and the distributions will be taxed as ordinary income...that's the rub.

Are you saying that the annuities are not taxed as long as you don't take the distribution each year and hence you are "saving it"? If you are already paying taxes on the distributions, you need to spend them instead of withdrawing from ROTH.
 
Thanks for the questions/feedback:

I had a Defined benefit plan when I owned my own business and then rolled the money into an Annuity when I closed it...so its a-qualified annuity and the distributions will be taxed as ordinary income...that's the rub.

Regarding living to 90 and working for max SS, the DW and myself understand that position. The realty for us, however, is we would rather play hard and enjoy the things when we are younger then hope our health is as good as it now. With that said, we have a good friend who worked until 70 so his wife (a teacher) would get his Max SS should he pass. Well, she ended up passing less than 3 months after he retired and he regrets that decision to this day. On the flip side I also have an Uncle who just turned 90. He has slowed way down in the last 10 years but to your point, he is 90.

Taking SS is obviously a personal (and financial) decision. To us, we made some descent financial decisions that will allow us to retire at 62/63. Will we live the Country club lifestyle? No, but we will be able to afford the things we currently do now. I have not read any comments from someone who took SS at 62 wishing they had worked longer.

If we do hit 80'sh and the money runs out or a curve comes our way, Plan "B" is our kids ....lol!

I am confused by what you have written... wouldn't the $72k of annuity income be included as income for ACA subsidies and reduce the amount of subsidies that you qualify for?

For your SS decision there are a couple things to consider. First where you say " I have not read any comments from someone who took SS at 62 wishing they had worked longer" it suggests that perhaps you think that you need to start SS in order to retire. That isn't necessarily the case if you have a well funded retirement. I retired 12 years ago at 56 and have still not started SS. Also, depending on your funding, you can still play hard and enjoy life while you are young and your health is good using your money rather than your SS.

You may want to check out opensocialsecurity.com if you haven't already done so.

But here is another way to look at the SS decision. Let's say you can collect $40k a year of SS at 67. At 62, that would be $28k (70%) or at 70 that would be $49.6k (124%). So let's look at the 2 extremes... 62 and 70. If you defer until 70 you will forgo collecting $224k [$28k * (70-62)]. If you defer until 70 you will get $21.6k a year more ($49.6k at 70 vs $28k at 62) for the rest of your life. Deferring is like paying $224k for a life annuity of $21.6k a year starting at age 70... a 9.6% payout rate which is very good for a 70 year old. So if you are in good health and have decent family longevity and can afford the $224k, buying a COLA-adjusted annuity from the SSA is a good value.

Another way to look at it is let's say that you have $2m in retirement funds and are comfortable with a 4% WR and retire at 62. If you take SS at 62 then you would have $28k from SS and $80k from the portfolio for a total of $108k a year.

Alternatively, you take $396.8k of your $2m and pull it off to the side to draw $49.6k a year from when you retire at 62 until you start SS at 70. The remaining $1,603.2k is withdrawn at 4%... that's $64.1k from the portfolio and $49.6k from the side fund to begin with and then SS later for a total of $113.7k a year. So you can safely spend 5.3% ($113.7k a year vs $108k a year) more by deferring SS.
 
I agree with what pb4uski said about SS, use opensocialsecurity.com and scroll to the graph at the bottom and click alternate claim ages. Spending down your assets to "buy" the extra SS benefit for the higher earner is a a good deal for most and may be essential in your case.

I'm understanding that by far your largest asset is the $72K annuity (I think it's in an IRA, so to spend the payouts requires withdrawals from the IRA?). Commercial annuities do not have much, if any, COLAs, so if that is your major asset, your plan is very exposed to inflation risk and in fact, the high inflation the last few years has hurt you already. The inflation protection in maximizing the higher earner's SS benefit helps manage that risk.

Your original question was about whether the HSA was worth it as you wanted to maximize your wife’s SS. An HSA for the two of you has a maximum contribution limit of $9,300 this year and her employer is kicking in $2,000. Based on what you told us for your total SS benefit at claim ages 62 & 63, your wife is above the first SS bend point, so the HSA is not significant in her SS benefit. The $7,300/yr contribution will make a difference in her SS of $7300/420 (months in 35 years) * 0.32(PIA adjustment between the 1st and 2nd bend point) * 0.75 (claim at 63)= $4.20/month. I think your plan has bigger risks in it than that one.

If you are in the 12% bracket now, then you could be doing Roth Conversions up to the bottom of the LTCG tax phase-in (top of the 12% if you do not have a taxable account) now. You will be facing a 25%+ marginal tax cost as you fund your early retirement years due to reduction in ACA premium credits if you pull money out of your IRA. Building up something besides your IRA would be very helpful to manage that.

You mentioned that you are getting $10K/year in dividends? Do you have a taxable account you didn't discuss? Note that dividends aren't independent income, spending them is a withdrawal like any other, but if you do have a taxable account that is large enough to throw off $10K in dividends, then you have a lot more cushion than I thought and a lot more flexibility in your early years' spending source.

Check how long your Roths have been open, if it's less than 5 years, then only the contributions/conversions can be accessed tax-free, if you withdraw more than you originally put in before the account is 5 years old, the withdrawal of the gains will be taxed.

With what seems to be a marginal plan like yours, you really need to use some calculation tools to evaluate your risks and optimize your choices. While Firecalc can't handle all the complexities of your tax situation, it's still valuable to see how your plan would have behaved in past market conditions. For a granular look that would include most tax issues, you might try some free or low cost tools. The free Retiree Portfolio Model spreadsheet, available at the bogleheads.org wiki is a starting point. I've heard of others using NewRetirement, a paid web app that has a Monte Carlo option. My favorite is Pralana Gold, a paid Excel sheet that has more flexibility and completeness of the tax code than competitors, that has a Monte Carlo option and historical data so you can see how your plan would have behaved in past markets.
 
Sorry for the confusion.

For clarrification, the annuitydistribution rolls into an Ira which will be then taxed as ordinary income when taken out.

Regarding the ACA benefits, correct, the more income we show minimizes the subsidies. Thats why I would use Roth Money to keep our income as low as possible for the years prior to medicare. With that said, I had such tunnel vision thinking I needed to use the Roth, I never looked at our regular investment accouts to bridge the gap until medicare kicks in....much better plan and we would still save on the ACA premiums.

+1

Also, I have to question your SS choice:

The advantage of a delayed SS is, it is an annuity that has COLA, (cost of living adjustment) , so each year the paid amount goes up by inflation when collecting for life.

My thinking on it is: If you have $Millions then take it whenever, but if only have a few hundred thousands saved, you can delay for X years by spending some savings, that is a better bet, due to the COLA and Survivor Benefits, and lifetime payments.

People who have no savings, have to take it at age 62.

Never ran the numbers but the drawing down of the saving and delaying SS makes total sense and is the better bet.

Thanks to all for the information....this community is the best!
 
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