A question about my sister

[REWahoo]

It always amazes me how some parents will spend tons of money on one child while ignoring the others. Why is it that one kid can make stupid, selfish decisions and consistently get rewarded with bailouts while other children who act responsibly get the shaft?

Sibling views of inequality are universal: "My Brother Was an Only Child".

We have two (grown, married with children) daughters and have been very careful to treat each equally when it involves financial matters. Example: When the second daughter was married her wedding cost 50% more than her sister's. We gave first daughter a 'delayed wedding gift' in the amount of the difference.

Financial equality is much easier to accomplish than fair and balanced treatment on the non-financial side of things. One lives seven miles away, the other 300. No surprise, we have far more daily interaction with the seven mile grandkids than the 300 mile ones - and this does cause friction.

 

[WannabeRetired]

We have two (grown, married with children) daughters and have been very careful to treat each equally when it involves financial matters. Example: When the second daughter was married her wedding cost 50% more than her sister's. We gave first daughter a 'delayed wedding gift' in the amount of the difference.

Very cool.

 

[JRM1510]

It's not really the situation that my parents neglected me or anything like that. They paid most (more than half - I had a few scholarships and I put maybe 13K or 14K of my own into it) of my tuition and my dad gave me his old car which runs good and is worth about $6500. When I was 21 I was still in school, living at home, and my parents were paying for my food and stuff, though I spent less and because I was living at home just general expenses were less. They bought my sister the condo because they planned to sell the house and move out of state but then they changed their minds so now they just have a house built for 4-5 with 2 people in it. And I'm not dependent on the inheritance (planning on retiring before they die anyway - if everything goes well) so it's not a "this is unfair!" kind of a thing.

My dad was essentially an internal consultant. He's a spreadsheet kind of guy, me telling him to plug numbers into a calculator or spreadsheet won't do much, because I'm sure he's already doing that. He's just not taking any action on it. And both of my parents have college degrees so they're not dumb either. They're just not doing anything to ensure their financial security. The other problem I think is that my dad's focus is off a bit. He went on a 2 week European vacation (probably several thousand? I don't know how much it costs), and bitches to me because my mom bought an iPad or spent $100 on music from iTunes or my sister spent $200 or whatever on new clothes or makeup. And he's planning on going on a cruise in a few months or something (I don't know any details about this). He complains about my mom's and sister's stupid expenses which are relatively small but still makes these big purchases for himself and my mom (who probably couldn't care less about going on a vacation).

I'm not as worried about my sister's spending as her potential income. She spends a lot, but not incredibly outrageous. With a decent income she's not going to retire young but she's not going to be super indebted either. And if in 2 years she's done and has a good job too then my parents will be fine I think (eventually when they sell the house and move somewhere cheaper - it's pretty expensive where they live). I'm much more worried that she won't get a good job, and that my parents will need to support her for several years, which won't be fine for them. Or that she will need to support herself, which she won't be able to do, and thus go into debt. I'd much rather try to get her to see the income problem that she's going to have because I think that's a better problem to solve than the spending one.

I guess, as many of you are saying, there's plenty possibility that when my sister sees her income and her expenses, she'll get it and she'll figure out a way to increase income or decrease expenses. I guess I'm just worried that won't happen.

I'll try something like the bit about "so I'm planning on setting aside some money for you guys" next time I talk to my parents. But I'll probably have to phrase it very differently than that.

 

[2B]

Sibling views of inequality are universal: "My Brother Was an Only Child".

That's what my older brother says about himself. He says he was never consulted or agreed to siblings so he does not recognize us.

 

[2B]

I'm not as worried about my sister's spending as her potential income. She spends a lot, but not incredibly outrageous. With a decent income she's not going to retire young but she's not going to be super indebted either. And if in 2 years she's done and has a good job too then my parents will be fine I think (eventually when they sell the house and move somewhere cheaper - it's pretty expensive where they live). I'm much more worried that she won't get a good job, and that my parents will need to support her for several years, which won't be fine for them. Or that she will need to support herself, which she won't be able to do, and thus go into debt. I'd much rather try to get her to see the income problem that she's going to have because I think that's a better problem to solve than the spending one.

I guess, as many of you are saying, there's plenty possibility that when my sister sees her income and her expenses, she'll get it and she'll figure out a way to increase income or decrease expenses. I guess I'm just worried that won't happen.

I suspect your sister will never change. For some people money is like water flowing down a river. It just keeps coming and going. None of it ever stays....

Your best hope is that she marries well.

I have BIL/SIL in their 60's that appear to have spent most of their money and have two mortgaged houses. When FIL finally passed, they bought a new vacation home for almost twice of what the inheritance was about two months after disbursement. BIL recently lost his job and is in a major, aggressive job search. They appear to be living a lifestyle safely beyond what I suspect they can afford.

 

[poorcarver]

I have a similar situation. DW's older Brother is an educated man with a decent living and an exaggerated requirement for the best in food, wine and general lifestyle. Has some retirement package due to university teaching and equity in property. But at age 63 all the chickens have come home to roost and his balance sheet is problematic heading for oh oh. To her credit, DW agreed with me some years ago that when the ship sank not one $ would be offered. We would take him in off the street if he had no home but nothing else.

So while not yet sunk the Plimsoll line is below water and the other siblings are "meeting to discuss how to help". We did not attend.

So to the OP, decide now that you can't fix it and prepare to repel boarders.

 

[karluk]

I tried asking my parents what they thought and they basically said it's not my business (which they're right, but I'm just worried about them).

Your parents say it's none of your business, and the consensus answer from this thread is that there's nothing you can do about your relatives' overspending. What more do you need? You should stay out of this and limit yourself to deciding how much, if any, financial support you will be willing to provide when the money runs out. If I were you, the amount of support I would offer to provide would be extremely limited.

 

[Brat]

If the OP's father mentions their finances in any way I would suggest that he and mom develop a 5-year SPENDING plan. Sounds better than a budget and will help them see what is happening to them financially.

I wouldn't bother discussing this with sister. That is their job and it may lead to life-long hard feelings on her part.

 

[CaliforniaMan]

As you can see from the comments here what you are experiencing is not uncommon. I had a somewhat similar situation with my mother when I was about your age. My mother was living on a little VA and SS after my father died, and every month was spending a little more than she took in. I was putting myself through college on some various scholarships, working, and living on very little. But every month I found I had to give her money to make ends meet. Nothing I could do or say to make her live within her means. Finally I just couldn't do it anymore, just barely making it myself. I had to decide, she was an adult, and had to live with what she did. I stopped making up the difference and lo and behold somehow she managed to survive without my input and got things together herself. Maybe some of my scolding helped, and the knowledge that she was on her own made her get it together.

At any rate there is only so much you can do, as others have said, you can take a horse to water... I guess I would just have a frank discussion with your father and politely ask him what he is doing and tell him what you think. Also tell him that this is the last time you will talk to him about it. After all your parents ARE adults. You have done what you could. Get on with YOUR life. You fill find that you are going to make plenty of mistakes yourself and have plenty of problems of your own. None of us here got to where we are without a lot of stupid mistakes along the way, and you won't avoid them just like your parents didn't. Like they say, we avoid the mistakes of our parents, and repeat the mistakes of our grandparents. Only so much you can do for your family, do what you can then enjoy your life.

 

[2B]

Like they say, we avoid the mistakes of our parents, and repeat the mistakes of our grandparents. Only so much you can do for your family, do what you can then enjoy your life.

I don't know anyone in my ancestry that didn't live paycheck to paycheck and die close to broke. Three of my siblings are living that way and will probably die close to broke. One is barely ok but he still has time. I'm the "rich" one that if they knew how much I had a line would form with heart rendering stories of their depravations. I'm planning my story for when I finally retire at the end of the year. I think I'll become a struggling consultant after losing my current job but they just won't know I never look for any work.

 

[WannabeRetired]

I'm planning my story for when I finally retire at the end of the year. I think I'll become a struggling consultant after losing my current job but they just won't know I never look for any work.

That's a good idea to have a plan ready. Sounds very likely that they would assume you were a piggy bank they could crack open if they wanted.

 

[RunningBum]

You've been told it's none of your business, so that pretty much ends it. I'd somehow bring it up one more time, and say something to the effect of, "I know it's none of my business, but just know that when you are gone, I won't be helping her out. Likewise if you run out of money. That part is my business."

You may or may not choose to let them all go hungry later, but that's your best chance to make a point, I think. Maybe that will wake your dad up.

 

[2B]

You may or may not choose to let them all go hungry later, but that's your best chance to make a point, I think. Maybe that will wake your dad up.

You can't fix "stupid." It's obvious the OP's father knows what's happening and isn't stopping it. He's also contributing to it with what the OP describes as expensive vacations.

My biggest expense is also expensive vacations but I'm not supporting a child's lifestyle they can't afford. I also know that within normal bounds I have more than enough money for retirement.

When things go bad, the worst thing to do is to step in and maintain their prior lifestyle. That is enabling and nothing will change. Let them become bankrupt and lose it all. There's a chance they will reform. If they are out on the street, rent them a real cheap apartment and provide some food money if necessary. Never give them enough so their desire to do better is stifled. They won't be cold, wet or hungry but they may not like it. The sad part of this is many people will be happy to even have this covered and not care about improving themselves. So, any help should also not be open ended. An end date needs to be put there.

 

[Lisa99]

This is going to sound harsh, but it is none of your business how your parents choose to spend their money.

If you feel that you're being short-changed that's a fair discussion to have with them, but don't be surprised if it hurts your relationship. Money is a very touchy subject.

The second part of the conversation re: you're not going to have enough to live on if you keep it up isn't your business. They have decades more experience than you and have managed to save a tidy sum. And I haven't fully read all of these posts, but you may not really know what all they have or how they plan to fund their lives.

Have you considered that some people just like to complain and that sounds like what your dad is doing?

If you insist on "helping" the next time your dad complains about spending take advantage of the open door to casually mention that when he vents it makes you worry that they won't have enough for their old age... See where that goes but please don't be a bull in a china shop.

 

[MRG]

This same sad story plays out in peoples lives all over the world. As has been said you didn't cause it, it's not yours to fix.

A while back my oldest sister and I had a dream/fantasy to get ourselves involved fixing some dysfuntional family members. We came to the realization there were thousands of dysfunctional families we would pass on our journey. All of them needed fixing too! That's when we remembered we were powerless. Once you realize you have no power, great things can happen.
I wish you and your family all the best.

 

[haha]

You can't fix "stupid." It's obvious the OP's father knows what's happening and isn't stopping it. He's also contributing to it with what the OP describes as expensive vacations.

My biggest expense is also expensive vacations but I'm not supporting a child's lifestyle they can't afford. I also know that within normal bounds I have more than enough money for retirement.

When things go bad, the worst thing to do is to step in and maintain their prior lifestyle. That is enabling and nothing will change. Let them become bankrupt and lose it all. There's a chance they will reform. If they are out on the street, rent them a real cheap apartment and provide some food money if necessary. Never give them enough so their desire to do better is stifled. They won't be cold, wet or hungry but they may not like it. The sad part of this is many people will be happy to even have this covered and not care about improving themselves. So, any help should also not be open ended. An end date needs to be put there.

Marriage politics explains a lot of otherwise inexplicable actions and failures to act. A point I have made before (probably ad nauseum) is that a marriage partner who tries to enforce standards of wise behavior can get whacked quickly in several ways. Hostility from the foolish partner. Hostility from any third party who has been a beneficiary of the foolish behavior. And last but certainly not least, by the fact that a marriage partner with assets or income lives with his/her neck pre-placed in the divorce and property settlement noose.

I believe that the only effective remedy has to be done beforehand-don't get married, or 2nd best get some sort of preplanned escape clause that at least stands some chance of standing up in court.

People who interact with you, and who are bound to have at least some area of disagreement as to how life should unfold, and what rules or principles should be maintained in your joint dealings are more inclined to be reasonable if they realize that they do not own a piece of you.

Ha

 

[clifp]

This is going to sound harsh, but it is none of your business how your parents choose to spend their money.

If you feel that you're being short-changed that's a fair discussion to have with them, but don't be surprised if it hurts your relationship. Money is a very touchy subject.

The second part of the conversation re: you're not going to have enough to live on if you keep it up isn't your business. They have decades more experience than you and have managed to save a tidy sum. And I haven't fully read all of these posts, but you may not really know what all they have or how they plan to fund their lives.

Have you considered that some people just like to complain and that sounds like what your dad is doing?

If you insist on "helping" the next time your dad complains about spending take advantage of the open door to casually mention that when he vents it makes you worry that they won't have enough for their old age... See where that goes but please don't be a bull in a china shop.

+1
I am sure I'm not the only forum member who discovered his dad's IQ increased about 20 points when I turned 25. I never did figure what caused him to get smarter.

You sound like a bit of a worry wart, they are still working and if your dad is a spreadsheet guy I would guess he has run the number. Financial decision making skillls peak in the late 50s.

Rather than offering advice perhaps ask for advice instead. Tell your dad you found this forum and your thinking/planning on retiring early.

Ask him if I ever thought about it and what his thoughts are on it. Honestly it sounds like your parents are having a pretty good life. This forum is filled with folks who place a high priority on delay gratification. While I personally think this a smart way to live, it is not without its opportunity costs. We don't hear from the folks who didn't take the fabulous trips, or put up with crappy apt. instead of their dream home, and died at age 40.. Getting another perspective never hurt.

 

[pb4uski]

Boy, do I feel lucky. All of my four sisters are very sensible with money and are doing well - some more well than others, but nobody living from paycheck to paycheck. Mom is doing very well thanks to Dad's planning that I took over after he died so she is all set and there will be a nice inheritance someday. Since we are all doing well we have encouraged her to spend it and enjoy, but the reality is actually the opposite - we have to prod her to spend on sensible things - especially home repairs and improvements - Mom's attitude is always that what is is fine.

 

[imoldernu]

"it is what it is!"

All of the above posts...Good advice, and a wise consensus. Should be mandatory reading for everyone... and we all know people in the same situation.

 

[Letj]

It always amazes me how some parents will spend tons of money on one child while ignoring the others. Why is it that one kid can make stupid, selfish decisions and consistently get rewarded with bailouts while other children who act responsibly get the shaft?

(Can you tell I have a sibling who gets subsidized by my parents?)

Parents are wired to not let their children suffer so they will help the one they perceive needs the most help. They're just being human.

 

[darly2004]

OP, sorry you are put in this situation. Like most responses, however, I do feel the best thing is to stay out of it the best you can with few open ended questions to get them (your dad) thinking about what he would do if money were to run out.

I have been in your situation and am still in your situation. Ever since I was 18, I have worried about what my parents' retirement would be like. I always get "don't worry about it", "the government will take care of us", "we'll just eat less", etc, whenever I try to have discussions about their expenses. They have also supported my siblings through most of their twenties and are still supporting my brother, who has mental health issues. Trying to have discussions regarding their money has proven to be stressful for both parties and probably created resentment on both sides. I have tried to talk to my sister as well, but I think that it just drives us apart and makes her view me as another parent rather than sister/friend.

For the last few years, I have learned to let it go a little more. Well lo and behold, they need to retire soon since they can barely work due to health reasons. I just found out my dad owes almost as much in credit cards as he has in retirement! I almost keeled over! My parents are starting to realize they don't have enough money to live on. They are thinking about selling some properties that may bring in a small amount of money (properties that they wanted to pass down to us). They may have to move the a lower COL area (where we are) and sell/rent their home. They are thinking of ways to cover for expenses that they never considered before. So like others said, most people will figure out a way if push comes to shove.

With that said, I don't disagree with you that their choices now will likely become your problem later. Until then, you can't do much. I also grew up with mindset that I will need to help my parents out. So, my DH and I are planning on paying off some of their debts, but not without certain conditions since it is now our business. I am going to be making an appointment for a financial advisor to help them with budgeting and try to see where they can cut out some expenses. I have told my mom that I can't help them if they can't help themselves. My sister, on the other hand, will need to marry someone with money since I probably won't give her a dime.

My advice to you is it is ok to discuss your concerns with your dad, but not with I think you should do this or that attitude. In the meanwhile, it is not really your business until you are paying for their expenses. So, continue to do a great job at your work and save as much money as you can. When the time comes and they need help, you may be able to afford to do so without hurting your own financial security.

 

[spncity]

I'll try something like the bit about "so I'm planning on setting aside some money for you guys" next time I talk to my parents. But I'll probably have to phrase it very differently than that.

Try phrasing it VERY differently - as in the opposite - such as, "Well, if the money runs out you guys can always sell the house, go on a subsistence budget and go back to work at your old jobs, or get jobs at Walmart and sis can deliver pizza because I won't be making it my business to bail anyone out."

 

[AnIntentionalRoad]

You've been told it's none of your business, so that pretty much ends it. I'd somehow bring it up one more time, and say something to the effect of, "I know it's none of my business, but just know that when you are gone, I won't be helping her out. Likewise if you run out of money. That part is my business."

You may or may not choose to let them all go hungry later, but that's your best chance to make a point, I think. Maybe that will wake your dad up.

+1 I think it is extremely bad taste for DF to complain to OP about her mother's spending habits and then, when OP tries to say something constructive, he plays the "It's none of your business" card.

No, he made it her business when he decided to confide his marriage's financial troubles on his daughter.

My DM would do things like that to me for years until I realized to just shut my trap and tune out whenever she started ranting about my DF's or siblings failings. Because as soon as I opened my mouth to agree or disagree with her, she would jump down my throat!

No, for siblings and parents I am very careful about my level of involvement, either financial or emotional.

 

[Rdub]

My parents didn't save much money throughout their working lives. They have always been generous with my sister and brother, and I am sure they would have been with me if I needed anything (i'm stubborn and driven, so I didn't).

My sister has always been horrible with her spending and my brother has always spent what he makes. I made it clear early on, that I do not like debt... I don't like borrowing money and I hate loaning money. I've explained that I love being their brother, but I am not going to be their bill collector.

I am generous with birthdays/dinners/bbqs/etc and have stepped in when I felt they really needed help (very rare) with something specific. However, I am not their atm/bank and I will never fund their lifestyle.

With your parents, I would suggest that you tell your dad about Firecalc (or your favorite retirement planning tool) and offer to help him get started. You could also take a passive aggressive stance and buy your family a copy of Quicken for Christmas and offer to help them set it up so they can balance their checkbooks, track their spend, create a budget and view all of their accounts/assets in one place. What they do from there is their choice. Good luck!

 

[Finder]

With your parents, I would suggest that you tell your dad about Firecalc...

+1.

Not sure how much you have run this tool. But I recommend you show your dad and you run it in front of him. Don't just send him the link first. Show him that you found this tool that you are now using and want to share with him. You can show him in 10 mins or less and even if he does spreadsheets it can be eye opening if he hasn't tried something similar.

Make sure you are able to answer his questions so practice using the different parameters, particularly the ones he would need to use.

Quicken is a good idea too but it takes a lot more work/time to keep up with and you may not have much time in this type of discussion with your dad.

Regardless of what he decides to do, you will both know that you have tried to help multiple times. That is really important if things get more serious.

Good luck.