Adios Estados Unidos - hola España?

[Thomas3857]

I’m doing a test version of what you are planning with a few different facts: in Mexico, no spouse, no kids. I did sell the house and most all of my possessions for peace of mind. Mexico is giving the chance to improve the Spanish before I decide if I’ll stay here or try other Latin America or European country.

That said: one item I saw with Spain is a net worth tax. I think it’s set regionally. Madrid is at zero but no information on the cities you listed. Might want to google that a bit and see if you might get pulled into it or not.

Not Spain specific, but have you thought about where to maintain a permanent mailing address? One of the addresses for the kids would work. Plus consider a service that scans your mail for other things. Plus consider as much electronic delivery as you deem acceptable.

Consider a VPN. Some banks (Marcus for example) won’t let me connect from a non-US IP address.

Rent at first don’t buy.

PS: I agree with you comment about Memphis. Lived in Cooper-Young for years. Was happy to leave.

I have researched tax issues and it's muddy at best. Appears that if you live in Spain for 186 days or more (don't have to be consecutively) in a calendar year you're considered at tax resident. Rather than guessing and making a big mistake I've scheduled a consult with a firm that specializes in expat taxation issues. Curious - how is the taxation handled in Mexico?

 

[explanade]

Please update the thread on the taxes too.

It may be difficult to open a bank account as an American.

But a lot of bills are paid directly out of bank accounts, so unless there's some kind of online pay service or if they take US credit cards, it could be a pain.

There are some expensive apts. geared towards people who are going to stay for a year, not permanently. IN those cases, I think they give you one price to rent the apt with utilities, even Internet, included. So in those cases, you may not be establishing your own accounts with the utilities or the Internet provider.

Instead it's the owners or maybe a property management company who takes care of that.

Of course they take a big cut probably for that setup.

But for a year or two, if it's not too unaffordable, it may not be a bad option.

 

[Thomas3857]

Please update the thread on the taxes too.

It may be difficult to open a bank account as an American.

But a lot of bills are paid directly out of bank accounts, so unless there's some kind of online pay service or if they take US credit cards, it could be a pain.

There are some expensive apts. geared towards people who are going to stay for a year, not permanently. IN those cases, I think they give you one price to rent the apt with utilities, even Internet, included. So in those cases, you may not be establishing your own accounts with the utilities or the Internet provider.

Instead it's the owners or maybe a property management company who takes care of that.

Of course they take a big cut probably for that setup.

But for a year or two, if it's not too unaffordable, it may not be a bad option.

I actually have an online meeting with a Spain-based tax advisor in the next couple of weeks. From my reading, I think the wealth tax will be an issue. It seems patently unfair to tax wealth that has already been taxed in the US but I know Spain is one of 4 countries in Europe that still retain this tax. I think that's why many expats move to Portugal where the tax situation is better.

 

[explanade]

Wow didn't know about the wealth tax.

 

[ncbill]

If one keeps the bulk of their assets with a U.S.-based custodian just how does any jurisdiction in Spain enforce a wealth tax since they wouldn't have a clue about the amount of out-of-country assets.

 

[Thomas3857]

If one keeps the bulk of their assets with a U.S.-based custodian just how does any jurisdiction in Spain enforce a wealth tax since they wouldn't have a clue about the amount of out-of-country assets.

Have to fill out a form 720 (i think) and disclose all your worldwide assets. I suppose not filing it or falsification of the form could lead to penalties just like in the US. I'm sure there's many expats that don't do it but just like anything else it's fine until it isn't.

 

[ncbill]

Have to fill out a form 720 (i think) and disclose all your worldwide assets. I suppose not filing it or falsification of the form could lead to penalties just like in the US. I'm sure there's many expats that don't do it but just like anything else it's fine until it isn't.

Sorry, but I don't see any teeth here...e.g. a foreign government can't legally obtain my brokerage balance without my consent, nor could they even know which financial institutions I even use back in the USA.

 

[Bamaman]

You might consider Portugal as a substitute for Spain. i understand it's much easier to obtain a Visa there.

My niece lived in London but kept a condo in the Algarve Region of Portugal within sight of the coastline.

We've visited Spain off cruise ships twice, and I found most of the coastal cities (not Barcelona) to be a sea of high rise condos and apartments. We did visit Madrid, Granada and Barcelona 18 months ago and liked it so well that my wife returned a year ago with her other daughter.

We found the Spanish people to be absolutely stunning, and the place was so much less expensive to travel in versus the other large Western European cities. We preferred the inland cities especially.

 

[Nemo2]

Found this cost comparison between Bulgaria & Spain quite interesting:
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Bulgaria&country2=Spain

There are, of course, weather differences, and although we didn't get to the Black Sea coast we enjoyed Bulgaria.

 

[explanade]

You might consider Portugal as a substitute for Spain. i understand it's much easier to obtain a Visa there.

My niece lived in London but kept a condo in the Algarve Region of Portugal within sight of the coastline.

We've visited Spain off cruise ships twice, and I found most of the coastal cities (not Barcelona) to be a sea of high rise condos and apartments. We did visit Madrid, Granada and Barcelona 18 months ago and liked it so well that my wife returned a year ago with her other daughter.

We found the Spanish people to be absolutely stunning, and the place was so much less expensive to travel in versus the other large Western European cities. We preferred the inland cities especially.

Portugal also offers the Golden Visa. There are specific condos marketed so that you can meet some property investment threshold to get a residency visa.

I've not been but it looks like a beautiful place.

In Barcelona, along the coast, you will see a lot of modern high rises. Go away from the coast, towards the Eixample and you will see stately looking apt. buildings which like 19th century modernista style.

Madrid seems more a hodge podge of architectural styles. Much colder too. It's at a higher elevation than Bern IIRC. Of course it roasts in the summer but in March and April it could still be pretty cold.

 

[Thomas3857]

Sorry, but I don't see any teeth here...e.g. a foreign government can't legally obtain my brokerage balance without my consent, nor could they even know which financial institutions I even use back in the USA.

Thought about that but I think the enforcement lies with the need for a visa which likely requires expats be current on their Spanish tax returns if considered a tax resident which I will be if I live their more than 186 days.

 

[Thomas3857]

Portugal also offers the Golden Visa. There are specific condos marketed so that you can meet some property investment threshold to get a residency visa.

I've not been but it looks like a beautiful place.

In Barcelona, along the coast, you will see a lot of modern high rises. Go away from the coast, towards the Eixample and you will see stately looking apt. buildings which like 19th century modernista style.

Madrid seems more a hodge podge of architectural styles. Much colder too. It's at a higher elevation than Bern IIRC. Of course it roasts in the summer but in March and April it could still be pretty cold.

Been to Spain a number of times and visited many of the larger cities in the south and northeast. Like Barcelona (didn't love it) and enjoyed Madrid. Valencia is likely our destination. Haven't made it to Basque region. Never been to Portugal but they have a program called the non-habitual residence which is very tax friendly for expats.

 

[Koolau]

You don't owe me an explanation, but I'm always curious about those wanting to live in other countries. I'm sure there are lots of adventures, sights to see, people to learn about, etc. etc. I guess I would just miss the USA (even with all it's faults). Moving to Hawaii was sort of the best of both worlds to us. As I always say, "It's the USA, but it's NOT America."

In any case, I'm a believer that you can pretty much do what you set your mind to. If this is your dream, you can make it a reality. You'll figure it out. Enjoy.

 

[Nemo2]

............I'm always curious about those wanting to live in other countries.

There's also the 'how are you going to live' factor; are you intending to be a) part of an agglomeration/enclave, surrounded by your 'tribe', or will you attempt to b) integrate with the larger population.

I recall, the latter part of 1988, visiting a virtual 'Brit Colony' on the Spanish coast - Brit pubs, Brit cafes/restaurants, Brit clubs, Brit newspapers, Brit this and Brit that. Very insular, very incestuous, and I doubt the locals were totally sympathetic.

No thank you.

A) is, of course, easier (for many/most) than B).

 

[ncbill]

You don't owe me an explanation, but I'm always curious about those wanting to live in other countries. I'm sure there are lots of adventures, sights to see, people to learn about, etc. etc. I guess I would just miss the USA (even with all it's faults). Moving to Hawaii was sort of the best of both worlds to us. As I always say, "It's the USA, but it's NOT America."

In any case, I'm a believer that you can pretty much do what you set your mind to. If this is your dream, you can make it a reality. You'll figure it out. Enjoy.

Less expensive is usually the reason...I've met expats in Mexico living on nothing more than SSI (supplemental SS income)...which pays far less than the typical SS retirement benefit.

 

[Sunset]

I actually have an online meeting with a Spain-based tax advisor in the next couple of weeks. From my reading, I think the wealth tax will be an issue. It seems patently unfair to tax wealth that has already been taxed in the US but I know Spain is one of 4 countries in Europe that still retain this tax. I think that's why many expats move to Portugal where the tax situation is better.

What if a person created an LLC, and transferred their assets to the LLC.
Then they would no longer own the assets and have less wealth.

 

[Thomas3857]

You don't owe me an explanation, but I'm always curious about those wanting to live in other countries. I'm sure there are lots of adventures, sights to see, people to learn about, etc. etc. I guess I would just miss the USA (even with all it's faults). Moving to Hawaii was sort of the best of both worlds to us. As I always say, "It's the USA, but it's NOT America."

In any case, I'm a believer that you can pretty much do what you set your mind to. If this is your dream, you can make it a reality. You'll figure it out. Enjoy.

For me it's not about politics. I do like the idea of an adventure of getting outside my comfort zone and learning new things and seeing things from a different point of view. I do speak Spanish (well enough) and I have no desire to seclude myself amongst other expats. I'm realistic to know that no place is a paradise and problems (some the same, some different) exist everywhere. If I don't like it, I can always return.

 

[Koolau]

For me it's not about politics. I do like the idea of an adventure of getting outside my comfort zone and learning new things and seeing things from a different point of view. I do speak Spanish (well enough) and I have no desire to seclude myself amongst other expats. I'm realistic to know that no place is a paradise and problems (some the same, some different) exist everywhere. If I don't like it, I can always return.

I think that's a good attitude.

While I do understand the "enclaves" that people form when they emigrate, it seems to sort of miss the point of going to another culture. I'm sure the language barrier can be an issue to some, but immersion is supposedly the best way to learn a language (sort of sink or swim).

Full disclosure, we chose an area that was quite diverse (all cultures) rather than one more steeped in the local traditions. Part of this was simply that our budget placed us in areas like I described. Fortunately (for the most part) language has not been an issue. I don't think I would survive an immersion experience. It's important to know your limitations.

Thanks for your feedback. Best luck in your adventure. I hope you will keep us posted as I think we all would enjoy sharing your adventure from the "safety" of our own lives, so to speak. Aloha.

 

[madman]

Just joined here so reading through some older threads. I am American and was sent to Spain for a 2 year work assignment from my company in my early 30s. Ended up loving it there and did not want to return. Stretched it out 7 years but finally had to come back. I owned a rental property in FL that I managed from there the entire time so it is possible. It was a townhouse so not too much maintenance. I told tenants to email or call anytime day or night and I would respond ASAP if there was an issue. I gave them a plumbing, electric and HVAC company details and told them if there was an emergency and they could not reach me (middle of night) call the company I would pay bill over phone or they could pay and deduct from rent. More difficult to manage overseas but is doable. Regarding taxes, you do have to report your income to Spain and will legally be required to pay taxes. Years ago the USA went after Americans that were hiding money overseas and in Swiss banks. They basically forced all foreign banks to report any American account holders direct to the IRS or they would cut them off USD transactions which would shut down foreign banks since so many worldwide transactions are in USD. So if USA is forcing Spanish banks to give your info you can bet Spanish banks are asking USA banks to do the same. You might get away with not reporting foreign assets or you might get caught and be subject to big fines and back taxes. Same as if you lie to the IRS. Dual taxes are a pain so better to hire a good tax attorney there that knows both Spanish and USA tax laws and how they interact with each other. I lived in Madrid so did not have to deal with wealth tax but it does exist for cities outside of Madrid. My plan is to FIRE in 2024 and move back to Spain. Visas are not easy to get but I plan on getting a golden visa which requires purchase of real estate over 500K euros. Cost of living is low but quality of life is much better than the USA IMO. Good luck!

 

[Thomas3857]

Thanks madman for your input. We are going to Spain in June (if Covid restrictions are lifted) and plan to return to Madrid and visit Valencia for the first time. We have visited other cities on the coast near Malaga and we are considering those as well. I would prefer to live in Valencia (I think) due to climate and cost of living but the wealth tax issue concerns me. I understand there are exemptions but still I believe we will exceed those limits. Still not sure how the Spanish authorities will know what properties we own, what are vehicles are worth etc. Our net worth is approximately 2.5M. I don't envision a scenario where we will purchase property in Spain as I don't want to be tied to any particular place. We hope to try living in Spain for a year and see how it goes. Have been learning Spanish but still a long way from being fluid. Thanks -

 

[kcowan]

We have friends who moved from Monteray CA to Antequera and bought a row home. They lived there for four years when their kids were young so that they could learn Spanish culture.

They have moved back but still rent their place there. It is close to Malaga but much cheaper. We visited them and loved it. Close to Ronda as well.

Next year, we are going to Madrid and then taking a cruise on the Duero River.

 

[Bamaman]

The Schengen Agreement is something you have to deal with first. 90 days is all you can stay in the EU without leaving unless you're a student (usually.) Like was said, Portugal is easier to obtain an EU Visa in.

Spain is a very large country, and the different regions are almost like different countries. I've been to most cities on the Mediterranean and they're just a sea of high rise condos--and traffic is unbearable in all. Before renting permanently in Spain, it would be best to take time to visit all the regions for a couple of weeks each. They're all so different.

I was amazed how reasonable everything is priced in Spain. And I was amazed how absolutely stunning the Spanish are. Only place I've seen more beautiful people was Bergen, Norway. #3 is the Netherlands. Their language is so proper Spanish that it didn't sound anything like the Spanglish we're used to hearing in the U.S.

I wish you well in your odyssey.