Cheaper to keep her?

Okay I am going to be the lone wolf here and say that you need to change your perspective.

Work it out with your wife. Try to get her to see that the kids need to be prodded out, but if not, then I think you should eat **** and like it. They are, after all, your kids, not someone else's. Whether you like them or not, they came from you.
That's certainly a possible result of the counseling that many of us have suggested. I'll just say that all parties should go in with an open mind.
 
We never had any kids, so I really can't advise on that situation, but I will share a personal philosophy that has kept me sane despite having a fairly dysfunctional family -- I am not required to tolerate bad behavior from someone just because they are related to me. If I wouldn't take it from a stranger, I won't take it from a relative.
 
I think counseling will be very helpful to you and your wife. Gives you space to be open with each other and some tools to use.

I'd also suggest figuring out your financial plan (maybe you have already) without the extra expense of your three children. Then ask your three children to figure out among themselves how they will pick up the rest while they are there.
 
Even if she doesn't want to go to marriage counseling, you should go on your own. Weekly at least. It will help you figure out the next steps (with support) and how you can extricate yourself from supporting your adult children while communicating in a way that will get your wife to see your side.

Keep looking until you find a counselor who is actually helping.

Find some books to read on topics like Rescue Your Relationship.
 
Consider this question. If you were not legally entangled with your wife, if you and she had separate ways of making do, would you struggle with this?

If not, at least the issue is clear. How can I extricate myself with some money and with a clear conscience?

A lot of time and money can be thrown down a rathole trying to rescue something that would be better for both sides if you could just hit the delete button.

As for the kids, rent a copy of the African Queen. Watch Humphrey Bogart and Katherine Hepburn get into the river to push their grounded boat. Then watch them get out and try to pick the leeches off their bodies. Hard to get free of those buggers!

Ha
 
When I split with #1, many of my friends said they would like to do the same but could not afford it. I said that another 40 years was not about money but about enjoying life.

After 12 years with my new spouse, we are comfortable in every way. In absolute net worth, we may have less but we enjoy what we have much more. No regrets whatsoever. At separation, most people focus on the downside.

What about the upside?
 
Cheaper to keep her? Nah. On the one hand you leave and it cost you bucks. On the other you stay and it cost your sanity. Either way this is going to cost you something. Which do you value more? Think this through, I mean really think it through and know what you want before you talk to your wife. This situation did not occur over night. It took 33 years to get like this so spending a little time on this is not out of the question. There is no quick answer for a problem 33 years in the making and you should do your home work when deciding what to do with the next 33. That is what we are talking about here.

Your kids are young and have more time to bumble through life than you do. They will and that is their problem. Your wife is enabling their behavior. If she wants to spend the next 33 years doing that then fine that is on her. What we are talking about is what you want. What do you want to move towards, really? When you know that then ask yourself, What are you willing to do, what are you willing to pay to get it? When you know this you can talk to your wife.
 
Consider this question. If you were not legally entangled with your wife, if you and she had separate ways of making do, would you struggle with this?

If not, at least the issue is clear. How can I extricate myself with some money and with a clear conscience?

A lot of time and money can be thrown down a rathole trying to rescue something that would be better for both sides if you could just hit the delete button.

As for the kids, rent a copy of the African Queen. Watch Humphrey Bogart and Katherine Hepburn get into the river to push their grounded boat. Then watch them get out and try to pick the leeches off their bodies. Hard to get free of those buggers!

Ha

True that. Just think, once you get rid of one set the children of the leaches come to take up residence. I am watching some one go through that now. It ain't pretty being a senior citizen trying to deal with the child (her grandson) of a addicted person (her son). Just think of all of the aches and pains of being elderly and on top of that you have two people with emotional problems to deal with. Never a moment peace which is kind of what you want when you are in your late 70's.
 
I know they are family BUT remeber they are adults and its time for the adults to grow up and take on theresponsibility of the children they brought into the world. They would not be living in my house again. Visit for the holidays sure, then like fish after 3 days they all start to smell bad. Must throw thenm out at that point.
 
It sounds like you love your wife and want to continue on with her - make sure you make that clear to her.

However, given the givens it sounds quite complicated and emotionally draining - but staying OR leaving will continue to be emotionally draining...I don't see how it wouldn't - you aren't divorcing the kids?

Not sure what help I can offer aside from what others have suggested - but i sense some deeply ingrained emotional/behavioral habits contributing to this whole situation that will remain even after you make any decisions - things I'm talking about are: Wife's expections, perceptions of her role and your role in the family, Kids' perceptions of you as a father and their expectations, You're role in this family as provider (but perhaps absent/bitter/ resentful in others?).

Divorce will change few of the above.

Try taking time to figure out how to get yourself in a good emotional state. Read some books (try Anger, by Thich Naht Hanh, it's made for situations like these)...give yourself some time. If you have to move out to get some breathing space, then do it. But if you jump into any decisions before getting your mental crap together, it's going to only get worse. To do something that bold you have to have a clear head/heart.

People can tell you to get your kids out, do this or do that - but sometimes these things happen because you and/or your wife weren't able to say/do those things when they were 3, 12 or 22...so i'm just wondering what would enable you to be bold enough to do so now? And the resistance you will get will be much more stunning than a 3 yr old's tantrum. Not saying i disagree with the advice, but wanted to throw some grains of reality salt in it.
 
Time for my two cents.

There is nothing wrong with sitting down with each of the kids in private. Tell them about your stress at work and your needs, and that the current situation is taking a toll on your health. Mom may be communicating 'no problem' and they may not be aware of its impact on you. Ask each in turn for their independent living plan.

It is imperative that the two of you have a long discussion about each of your needs. She may be reluctant to let your children set sail in rough water, so to speak. You need to reclaim your space.

The kids need to set sail, perhaps she would agree that each of them present a plan for a place of their own within a year. They need to put it in writing. The two of you need to tell them that at the end of one year the house will be prepared to sell as you are down sizing. In the interim they must pay bed and board. You can save this money in an account for them so that they have what they need to get a place of their own. During this time create a peaceful space to call your own (over the garage, in the garage, in a travel trailer parked in the drive way.. wherever) and stay there. That behavior will communicate very effectively that a full house doesn't work for you, there is no need to discuss it further.

The other option would be to rent a house for a year for them to share and tell them that is where they can live, they can't stay in the family home any longer. They must pay for utilities and take care of the yard. Remind them that if they don't do that the home owner will kick them out and coming back home is not an option as the two of you are down sizing. I assure you that a full house such as you have now is not amenable to sale.

The problem with you and your wife staying in your current home is that the family sees it as 'every-bodies' home. You need a home that is for the two of you.
 
Another vote here for counseling and for discussing all this with your wife/kids. If you're not sure what you want or where your boundaries are with all this, it may be better to get the conversations started anyway. Once you share your views (even if those views are "I don't know what the hell I want"), it can open up new possibilities you hadn't thought of, or make it clear that some options just aren't on the table.

Also agree with spncity that if the first counselor you try doesn't seem helpful, keep looking! Finding one that meshes well with both persons involved can make a big difference - neither of you should feel like the counselor is "siding" more with the other person. If you feel that a counselor isn't working out, sometimes they can refer you to someone they think might be more compatible with you.

Hope it works out for you and your family!
 
If the only issue with DW is about spending and ER... I would not chuck in the marriage. If things are good otherwise, you should be able to work through that issue.

If your DW is reasonable... you should be able to work it out. You also need to inspect your behavior. I do not know the details... but if you just tossed out this idea that is life changing and expect her to just automatically be receptive... think again. Life changes require people to warm up to the idea. Give it some time. Be patient.

The first thing to go would be the kids. Put them on a timeline and set the expectation now. Don't threaten them... coach them. But you need to set the expectation. It will be a touchy subject. You will need to employ the old tactic... Mom and Pop are getting old and need to prepare for retirement and slowing down.

One final note: before the boards sympathy send you into a frenzy and get a divorce... Whatever is occurring is probably as much your fault as is is hers. You enabled it all these years.
 
Seek counseling - it may be the best decision the two of you have ever made.

Your wife is not your enemy.

Bob
 
And don't forget the most important thing: Keep us posted!
 
Hi Raygun,
It is a difficult situation for you.
I divorced 12 yrs ago. My present DW also divorced years ago.
We both had to deal with young children, which you won't if you divorce. It will be much cleaner for you if you go this path.
I do not advocate divorce, especially at 56.
I do not advocate living like the broiled frog either, even if it is an urban legend.
You should put everything in your life on the backburner for as long as it take for you and focus on a solution for your quamire.
It is too simplistic to read a few paragraphs and think we have an appropriate recommendation for your particular situation. But then if we all felt this way, this ER board traffic will cease.
Heck we can't even discuss something much more cut-dry and data-driven like investment strategies without name-calling.

So here goes.
Seems to me, your biggest issue is grown kids in your house.
I emphasized your house is because you are the payee of the house. Without your nice salary, would there be a house?
Why don't you start to flex your financial muscle in domestic matters?
You don't like your grown kids squatting in your house, tell them.
But tell them first in a nice manner. Then set a time frame, if no desirable action, ratchet up the tone and urgency. At some point in time, it would resort to making hell look comfy to the rascals then to live at your house.
You, with the mulah, is the boss and they need to be reminded of it.
If you are at all effective, then maybe 2 of them will move out in due time. Now your problem is much more manageble.
It is tough-love. 25 year olds can flip burgers and live with roommates. Isn't that what most of us did?
 
The comments come down to commentor personality. For the men, what did you enjoy when you played HS football? If offense, you will favor counselors, if defense you will just want to mess some stuff up and end the status quo.

Maybe best not to take internet board advice in matters like this! At least do not pay any attention to what I say, I was a DB. :)

Ha
 
Just a few comments.

1. Highly approve of counselling. In my experience, the counselor doesn't tell you what you should do, but facilitates a reasonable discussion between two people. Especially with a 30+ year marriage between you two, conversations can be incredibly automatic. Having someone else there can make your mind re-engage in conversations. As someone mentioned, your wife may just be reacting to the emotions of having a huge life change, and isn't actually thinking through the whole situation.

2. I think no matter what happens, retire soon. Here are all the options which may occur:
a. You two stay together, kick kids out, and cut budget to live within means.
b. You two stay together, keep kids around, and cut budget to live within means.
c. You two separate, you give half your reduced cash/pension to her, and you live within your means.

Here are the options if you don't retire (look at this great organization, I can't help making bullet lists)
a. You two stay together, kick kids out, and you keep working and die of a heart attack.
b. You two stay together, keep kids around, and you die of a heart attack.
c. You two separate, your wife gets half your current salary/retirement savings, and you're forced to work until you are dead.

So at least semi-retire asap.

3. I was child #2, the lazy one (at least from your brief description that's how I see it). I wasn't quite as bad as you described, I did manage to get through college on time - age 22 (barely). However, during the summers I really wasn't motivated to look for a summer job. I was given just a few chores (including mowing the lawn), and I remember numerous occasions where my dad came in yelling about how I didn't mow the lawn. I just didn't have any ambition to change my situation because my housing was paid for, I got cash handouts while in college, and I had some nice video games to play. Eventually our fights got bad enough that I wanted to leave, but it was hard to drag myself away.

Once I moved out after college, I received motivation from myself (wanting better housing, toys, etc), and have done very well for myself. I think that his pushing helped me get where I am, and perhaps if he had been tougher (less cash during college, etc), if I may not have done even better.

4. Enabling doesn't help anyone in the long run. You will eventually retire/die, and the kids will need to fend for themselves. What is better, they become independent at age 27, or age 45? I'd say the sooner the better. Do it while you still have cash to "save" them if necessary. As others have mentioned, they can pool their money and rent a place for 1k. Surely they can find a little cash so they won't be homeless. Then they can flip burgers, etc until they turn their own life around. Paying their expenses does nothing except enable them to screw up their lives further.

5. Being a stay at home mother usually lasts while the kids need a mother at home, IE ages 0 -> 5ish. Once a kid is in school full time, many mothers go back to work. My own mother went back to school & work once my youngest sister was in school. It is a hard step, but she felt it was her job to continue to contribute to the family. I have known many families (such as your own), where the mother just stayed at home, taking the easy path. Is there a reason you've let her stay home all these years? As someone else asked, what has she been doing? There is not a full time jobs worth of work in an empty house. Perhaps some of your issues stem from feeling like your wife is not contributing? Relationships are supposed to be partnerships. If you make the cash, you should make the decisions on where/how you will make it. If you wife wants more money, she can work. If she thinks you need more cash to keep the kids in the house, she can work to pay for them. Then she can get what she wants, and so can you.

Anyway, hope you reply and fill us in on how things are going :)
 
The comments come down to commentor personality. For the men, what did you enjoy when you played HS football? If offense, you will favor counselors, if defense you will just want to mess some stuff up and end the status quo.

Maybe best not to take internet board advice in matters like this! At least do not pay any attention to what I say, I was a DB. :)

Ha

I am not onboard here. Wouldn't the game of chess be more analogous than football?
It is you and your spouse. No teammate to blame for fumbles. And you can sacrifice your pawns to get something better.
In my mind, offense in football is about formulating a plan of attack, roles/repsonsiblities and execution.
Defense - there is a plan also, but it is more reactive.
You generally see what the offense throw at you then try to snuff out the play.

Games have written, concise rule books and even refererees.
Rules in marriage? I can see the reception already if I am stupid enough to present to DW arulebook for expected behavior.
 
I have a major quandary.. This is honesty all up front .. Ill try to make it simple but factual> I am 56 Married 33 Yrs. 3 Grown Children. Spouse a stay home mom all her life. I have spent the last 9 years grinding it out in MEGA corp. The job put me in the hospital 2 yrs ago. (Me and stress are less tolerant than in my earlier yrs)... Now here is the problem.
Financials- 401K 650K IRA 150K Cash and stock 100K Mortgage 250K no other major debts. (Basically need 80K to make bills) Pension @ age 60 estimated 30K per yr. Military Pension age 60 @ 8 K + Medical (Retired Reserve)

My problem: I had been dreaming of stopping next year and getting off the stress wheel. I anticipated my wife felt the same. I would do some part time job to bridge my yrs to age 60.

All 3 of my "GROWN KIDS" have migrated back home for various reasons. Youngest age 25, middle age 27, oldest age 29 with 2 kids --(separated)

I have never really gotten along well with my children and the stress of them all being here is making life miserable.

I told my wife we needed to start controlling our expenses because I plan on stopping next year. She said no way we could afford to etc..

I had thought we were on the same page but these grown kids in all reality are her love not me. And yes they are mine too.. but as I said it has never been a great relationship.

Should I just acknowledge we are no longer the same, go to an attorney and figure out how to split in a fair manner? or Just find a separate apartment and grind it out? I can't stay here much longer....The sad thing is I really dreamed of retirement with her.. just not the kids//

Thanks to ALL that have provided advice: It is certainly not a simple answer. And also thanks for not stating the obvious. I must have been a real wimp in managing my affairs to be in this mess! Reality: Divorce is a very expensive and ER ender. Texas would saddle me with support, division of assets, and pensions. Neither of us would survive in the style we are dreaming for after retirement. and 33yrs is a long time to just give up.//

So I am going to pursue counseling with or without her-- Yes I will try to get her involved, but I think she will balk. At least my Mega Corp pays for the initial sessions. Next no matter what, I am going to start pushing these kids MY way with her support or not. At least they will know my half of the story.

I will check in when I have something productive to report on for resolution.
 
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Good luck to you Raygun!

Remember, your core intentions are good ones: *get kids on own two feet, *increase personal happiness/decrease unhappiness and stress, *Retirement, *acknowledge long partnership etc...

Keep those crystal clear and it will help you along this bumpy path!
 
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