Financially free but choose to work

Millionaire Neumes

Confused about dryer sheets
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
3
I'm new to the board so I thought I should introduce myself.

My husband and I are financially free from a combination of frugality, living within our means, and investing. We choose to work because we enjoy what we do and my husband would be lost without his career. Being an investor, there is no retirement for me :)
 
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Jeebus, another one!

You, um, might have missed the [-]poop flinging contest[/-] firestorm last week with MMND, but you might consider dropping the reference to your blog and just tell us a bit about yourself on this board.

Other than a friendly heads-up that you might be stepping on recently-squashed nerves, welcome.

Why do you choose to continue working?
 
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MN, welcome to the board. We all look forward to hearing your story, and you are among many, many members who have enjoyed the same success, each in their own way. Take some time to read through archived threads to get a feel for who hangs out here.

I sent you a personal message regarding board rules for linking to your own web site/blog.

Hope you enjoy the board.
 
Today is my first day at the forum so I'll have to find the thread to which you refer. Thank you for the heads up. I appreciate your advice to take some time to get a feel for who hangs out. I'm not looking to grand stand or throw gasoline on a thread fire.

We choose to still work because we are relatively young (mid 40's), have two dependent teens, like what we do, and enjoy the peace of mind my husband's medical benefits provide. His company has a path for a 32 hour work week with medical coverage. First he needs to consistently work just 40 hours. He is doing much better. He's never been a workaholic, but he is someone who will spend a couple of hours checking his email and keeping in touch with coworkers when off duty.
 
Nothing wrong with working even when you don't have to. In your 40s, many people are "not ready to not work" for a variety of reasons.

I'm sure when the time is right to stop your normal jobs, you'll know it. One common question is what you have planned for health insurance, and you seem to have that under control. And two teens raise the wild card with lots of "what ifs" so waiting until they are fully launched adds another layer of reassurance.
 
Nothing wrong with working even when you don't have to. In your 40s, many people are "not ready to not work" for a variety of reasons.

Shoot... I just turned 30 and can't wait to hit 40 and not work. At least, not work in the traditional sense of work.
 
I poked around the blog a bit. They're both retired military.

And they think a home mortgage is a good idea.

Let's not start gang-tackling yet.


Neumes,

The above statements are meant to contrast with MMND.
 
Welcome! Working is not so bad if it is something you enjoy. I have few friends that could retire but enjoy their jobs. Most here retired because we had other things we would rather do. Golf for me. Tee time in a couple of hours. :)
 
I seem to have a knack for showing up at forums and blogs after an MMND blowup. I realize it is always dangerous to comment on a flaming thread, but because it is the elephant in the forum room that has already made several cautious about me before I’ve even said more than hello, I feel I need to respond.

I am Neumes not MMND

MMND has done a great job marketing her blog to her target audience. She has lots of supporters, but they seem to sku heavily towards those early in their finanical lives, based on comments I’ve seen at other sites. She drives those with high net worths, myself included, crazy.

A prime example was her guest post on December 9th at Get Rich Slowly, a well respected personal finance blog.

How I Became a Millionaire While Working in My Pajamas ∞ Get Rich Slowly

I’ve provided the link above so you can form your own opinion. What happened there in the comments section was very similiar to the response she received here.

First it starts out fine, with most comments positive. Then a few self identified high net worthers, Harry (comment #29) and Alicia (comment #51), start getting stronger with specific critics. The whole comment board gets fired up, with sides being chosen. MMND fires off tons of replies, yet for Alicia she calls her a troll who has been harassing her site and encourages readers to see her post on Chauvinist, Troll, or Economic Abuser which she infers is Alicia in disguise (comment #54). The comment board becomes more split with the gender wars popping up. MMND ends it (comment #100) stating she will be on TV soon, to come to her blog for details, and she is “...frustrated by the blatant sexism I (and many others) experiences on a regular basis.”

I read through the two MMND threads here after the moderators deleted the unaccetable content, so I don’t know the full scope of the Early Retirement story, nor do I want to. I do know that I cringe everytime a woman screams sexism when faced with strong opinions that can’t be changed.

What many posters at the Get Rich Slowy site seemed to overlook was MMND’s biggest critics were self identified high net worth individuals who have already walked the walk. Her tone, renting-is-the-only-way stance, and unwillingness to respond to the resultant strong critics, drives this group understandably bonkers. It is the same reason why she got the attacks here.

Based on what happened a week ago in this forum, I understand why frequent commentors are very wary and wondering if I’m “like her”. I hope you will eviscerate me on my own merits and not through the prism of MMND. When I start to see lots of real life examples of inviduals who become financially free by strictly renting and getting in touch with their feelings through scissor and paste collages, I’ll reevaluate my approach. Until then I’ll stick to owning a home and improving my investing skills.

The only other point is one of clarity regarding my husband and I. We are both prior service, not retired military. We got out after our initial tours, choosing to stay in our heavily populated military community for its quality of life and great schools for our future kids.
 
Interesting-- I wasn't aware that MMND has been making the rounds. It's the first time we've seen her on this board and apparently I don't read enough other boards to have noticed her "progress".

The only other point is one of clarity regarding my husband and I. We are both prior service, not retired military.
I was wondering what I'd missed. Thanks for clearing that up, and it looks like you're off to a much better start.
 
Welcome. We look forward to your participation.
 
Hi. I'm J.D., and I run the site that Millionaire Neumes referred to above. I don't know much about MMND, but find what she writes inspiring. I don't know much about her, and don't know what happened here.

However, I can say that in her post at my site, she really was getting comments from a single user pretending to be different people. (The comments all originated from the same IP address.) It was strange. I've never seen that happen before.

Anyhow, it's curious that Neumes (what does that mean, anyhow?) linked to my site. I just mentioned these forums yesterday in response to a reader who was looking for info on early retirement. Actually, Bob Clyatt pointed me here. I sent him a piece of fan mail after reading "Work Less, Live More", and he said I should look in here. I haven't found much time to do so, but I hope to in the near future.

Finally, what's the self-linking policy around here? I see Neumes was scolded for it, but I can't find any rules on it. There was nothing in the sign-up info, and there's nothing in the FAQ.

I'm not exactly retired, but I am quitting the day job to write from home. In a way, that feels like retiring. It's exciting!
 
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JD, I found my way over here from your site, as well. After hunting high and low, I discovered the Community Rules via a link near the bottom right of each page. It appears that signature links *are* allowed (within reason) but that blatant self-promotion within posts is not. Makes sense, though it might be helpful if the Community Rules were linked more prominently.
 
Note to lurkers who have not yet registered: If you put "Millionaire" in your user name, you will start with one strike against you.

NameTag.jpg
 
Lol. Love the name badge.

What happens if 'Chamillionaire' posts here though? (not that he would, but we should discuss it just in case. You never know, those rappers might want to eventually spit some tracks about LBYM)
 
I'd still be interested in MMND coming back and posting here - do a reboot, see if we can avoid the nastyness.

So, piecing info from her blog, posts here, and the link MNeumes provided, DH charged $65-$85/hr, worked an average of 30 billable hours/week, and profit from material accounted for the rest. Gross was $250k / year.

$75/hr * 30 hours / week * 50 weeks / year (allowing for two weeks vacation) = $112,500 / year.

That leaves $137,500 in material profits. That's $2,750 in profit from materials per week.

OTOH, they also had an apprentice, and I assume they made some profit off of him or they would not have kept him.

Anyone have experience with running a small, independent plumbing operation? Are these numbers reasonable? In particular, is never working more than 40 hours a week reasonable?
 
Interesting. Checking MMND's website, the links to her net worth are gone.
 
I also found it interesting that the link to her "investing strategy revealed" now gives a 404 page not found. Frankly, I didn't have the patience to wade through all those posts to see if there was an explanation somewhere here on the boards for why that was taken down, but it's still in Google's cache so I was able to take a look. Nothing particularly provocative.
 
Anyone have experience with running a small, independent plumbing operation? Are these numbers reasonable? In particular, is never working more than 40 hours a week reasonable?
When's the last time you remember seeing a happy plumber?

Seriously, I'd read Rex Cauldwell's "Plumbing A House" for the stories about his family's plumbing business and his physical condition. He pulls no punches.

A guy at our dojang is a finish carpenter who's been working 60-80 hour weeks for over three years. He's exhausted (he adds 25%-30% to every bid just to see if the customer's serious) and he still has more work than he can handle. (While his kid's kicking butt, he's napping in his truck.) The reason he's been working so hard is to pile up cash for the lean years which he knows are a part of every boom-bust cycle.

I think a lot of prospective owners of trade businesses back off when they start pricing liability insurance & workmen's comp, and that's before they learn about project bidding & kickbacks.

Even in a perfect world the profit margins go to the contractor who's perfected the balance of speed vs expense of special tools, their craftsmanship, and being able to find all the surprises & gotchas before making the bid. Think about all the things that go wrong when we're fixing a leaky faucet and multiply that by 40 hours/week... or a 200-home new-construction subdivision.
 
So, piecing info from her blog, posts here, and the link MNeumes provided, DH charged $65-$85/hr, worked an average of 30 billable hours/week, and profit from material accounted for the rest. Gross was $250k / year.

$75/hr * 30 hours / week * 50 weeks / year (allowing for two weeks vacation) = $112,500 / year.

That leaves $137,500 in material profits. That's $2,750 in profit from materials per week.

OTOH, they also had an apprentice, and I assume they made some profit off of him or they would not have kept him.

Anyone have experience with running a small, independent plumbing operation? Are these numbers reasonable? In particular, is never working more than 40 hours a week reasonable?

My father's a plumbing contractor (and my former employer). While it's only in commercial construction, I know enough about the cost side of things to comment:

First of all, the apprentice thing is suspicious. Times must be pretty tough for an apprentice to agree to work just 30 hours/week (unless he's experienced enough to work on his own).

Also, he'd probably charge the same rate for his apprentice as himself - but even if he cut the rate down, that would mean $125k in revenue from his work, and (?) $100k in revenue from the apprentice (assuming the apprentice works just 30 hours a week - again, suspicious).

That leaves a minimal amount of revenue from materials.

So the biggest question is: was there an apprentice or not? If there wasn't, then the materials amounts - while high - might be justifiable - but it'd still be a big stretch (but then why mention him?). If there is an apprentice, the materials might be reasonable, but almost at the point of possibly being too low.

But the other problem I have with this whole thing is what his exact work is (again, I think she evaded specifics....) Did MMND say he was in service work, or just say that he's involved in plumbing? It can be pretty hit-or-miss in the service industry if you are a one-man shop...to reliably average just 30 hours/week in work would require either turning a lot of people away, or just happening to roll the dice right and getting the right number of calls. If he does small 'jobs' - even that would be tough (presumably) to reliably have enough work (on average) per week to say he pulls in $X/year. Also, I'd never expect to see two plumbers work together consistently in "service work" (for the same job, since service plumbing jobs are typically handled by one person), so (again) the question of the apprentice comes up. If he does small jobs where he works up a firm quote to someone, it sounds odd that he wouldn't have a lot of dead/unpaid time of driving to peoples' homes to give them a quote before doing the work.

However, with the materials, don't forget to avoid confusing GROSS with NET. Plumbers pad the materials like any other industry (I was quoted $350 by Midas to replace my Explorer ECR valve - material cost if I bought the valve on-line is about $75. Labor they quoted was about 1.5 hours @ $60/hr. Talk about material mark-up!). A plumber could easily have a 100% to a 200% markup on SOME materials (pipe, fittings, washers, toilet parts), but not others (complete toilets, water heaters). But even then, if he truly has $125k in material revenue, that comes to $83/hr in material revenue. For a service plumber to average that day-in and day-out, that seems suspiciously high - unless he's the fastest plumber in the world.

To give you a comparison, the entire Busch Stadium plumbing system ended up at roughly $34/hr in material costs (total material divided by total plumber hours) - and that includes everything from 16" storm drainage pipe to 8" steel water pipes, all of the toilets/urinals/sinks/floor drains, the hangers supporting the pipes, etc. Sure, I did one hell of a buyout on it and material costs at today's rates would be roughly $70/hr in material costs - but it just seems difficult for me to see how a service plumber would bring in that much material revenue. And if he does small jobs, there's almost no way his materials would be that high (even if he had a 100% - or more - markup on his materials).
 
Personally, I wouldn't exactly be upset if we never saw MMND. The h05uc vibes are overwhelming.
 
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