Hi!

[Nords]

Geez, guys, do all the really interesting things happen while I'm out surfing all day? Thanks, everyone, for filling in, and thanks again for the support, Matt.

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Originally Posted by theronware Aren't you supposed to be the moderator of this board rather than the heavy handed naysayer? This is only my second post but I've been reading diligently for the last six months. And I've gotten to the point where I wonder where on earth you're coming from in response to some of the new posters?

Yes on the first, and a generous helping of reality on the second. If there's something positive to be said then I'll say it, but I'd rather put up my perception of the truth.

Sea story time. At one point in my career I wasn't on the first team for an XO job, but I was designated "as ready launch" if a serving XO fell on his sword. My boss had warned me to be ready to expect assignment anywhere from Hawaii-- even to New London or the Med if that's where the problem cropped up. Of course that'd involve a couple years of separation from my spouse of seven years and our newborn but hey, if that's what it took to stay on the career track, then that's what I'd do.

The following month a new boss reported aboard. After his usual settling-in honeymoon he asked me what my plans were and I mentioned the XO issue. He said "So, you'd go anywhere to do this?" and I said "Yup, not that there's any choice!" His response was "Well, people grow apart when they're separated this way, and I'm not sure that sacrificing a marriage for an XO tour is such a great idea from the Navy's Personnel Bureau."

I couldn't believe that a senior officer was giving me advice that ran counter to the party line. He was telling me not to be an XO?!? (I found out later about his ex-spouse and their four very troubled kids.) It was a huge epiphany-- more like a 2x4 upside my head-- and it made me realize that I had to plan my own career instead of following the little chart in our career handbooks. It set me to looking at other options, it got me a much better follow-on tour, and the philosophical change led to ER-- all because a senior guy had the guts to throw the B.S. flag. Today I feel lucky that I didn't get that XO phone call and that I had the foresight to go looking for my own follow-on tour instead of asking BUPERs' advice.

So, theronware, what's your military experience or your own experience with "sticking it out until retirement"? Would Matt (and the rest of us) benefit from hearing about it?

I'm telling Matt to look real hard at his career plans and to avoid repeating my mistakes. In my not-so-humble opinion, gritting your teeth and hanging on to 20 is not always the right answer-- having done so, that's where on earth I'm coming from. If that's heavy-handed naysaying then I don't wanna be a cheerleader.

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Originally Posted by theronware Matt24 seems to have a pretty good plan worked out. And your "rain on his parade" response doesn't seem at all warranted. To wit, you write: "A military retirement looks mighty sweet from that perspective, but there are 12 more years of pain separating you from it. Even a couple years of an ugly tour might be unsustainable if you guys are separated or if it's in a tough location. You're also approaching the point where your assignment officer is probably saving a really ugly nasty nice career-enhancing j*b just for you." Gosh thanks for the advice and, by the way, welcome to the board, Matt24. By the way, if you read his post, he had no reservations at all about his current plan nor about his next few years in the military. Just lots of enthusiasm about sharing his plans with us. I guess he'll think twice about that in the future.

He does have a good plan, and I said that.

That career-enhancing snipe is based on fact from my (and my spouse's) experience. In fact I hope that Matt has received a PM from another poster on this board currently experiencing the same type of family separation. Matt, and anyone in the military, needs to understand the consequences of a career decision that go far beyond into family, lifestyle, health, stress, and even burnout. You won't hear that from your friendly assignment officer.

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Originally Posted by theronware I could go on, but you get my point. Oh, and congrats on running Maximillian off the boards. I thought of writing at that point about how over-the-top your response to him was, but couldn't really be bothered. It's another thing when your replies to inoffensive new posters seem completely out of line with their intentions and sentiments.

Well, we moderators are trying to figure out why Max bothers to post to this board. He doesn't share any ER experiences. He doesn't have much advice about investing or lifestyle. He doesn't refer links to other ER resources. In fact some of his condescending, heavy-handed pronouncements leave out crucial details or are flat-out wrong, and most of them are delivered in a provocative, even insulting, manner.

His behavior is a good example of trolling. We moderators get a lot of feedback on posters that the other moderators consider trolls, and Max is currently running ahead of the next three contenders combined. We have no patience for trolling and we will eradicate it by stronger means if necessary. If Max is here to troll, then we'll do our best to encourage him to change his behavior or to leave. Most choose to do the latter, and it's our job to encourage him to make up his mind.

Your point is made, though, that we don't necessarily have to delete all the objectionable stuff if the other posters are going to take him to task for it. So maybe we should feed out the rope as fast as he can wrap it around his neck... or change his behavior.

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Originally Posted by theronware imho, you need to lighten your touch.

So, how much moderator experience do you have and where do you have it? Any specific hints to lighten up a moderator's touch?

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Originally Posted by theronware Of course this forum is not a cheerleading camp -- that wasn't my point. My point is that Nord's "moderating style" wavers between tireless self-promotion and unwarranted negativity. There's a difference between constructive critique of somone's plans and a knee-jerk "cut-em-all-down-to size" attitude. And, Donheff, -- we all know that "sh*t happens"as you put it...we sure don't need Nords to remind us of that little gem.

OK, I won't lighten up to "cheerleader", and I try to avoid the constructive critiques when possible. I learned all about that in the nuclear Navy, and part of the CC process involves having a standard rulebook that everyone should know how to follow. IMO that just doesn't exist for ER.

So rather than quoting heavy-handed excerpts from the hypothetical "Gospel of ER", I can talk about what works/worked for me ("tireless self-promotion") or what didn't ("unwarranted negativity"). That gives the poster a couple data points so that they can go make up their own mind or ask more questions.

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Originally Posted by theronware And, Donheff, -- we all know that "sh*t happens"as you put it...we sure don't need Nords to remind us of that little gem.

Sorry, can't agree with you on this point. I think we all DO need that reminder occasionally, and I'd like to know where the cowpatties are before I go skipping barefoot through the pasture.

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Originally Posted by theronware For the last six months i've generally tended to be amused by Nords testosterone-ridden moderation -- last night I was moved to reply rather than simply smirk or grimace to myself. What would it take to instigate a constructive critique of someone's moderation? From most of the above replies, I'm not sure there's a place for that on this forum. Too bad. I guess one gets the moderator one deserves.

True, I've never lacked for testosterone. Constructive criticism helps check my reference point, too, and make sure that I'm not wandering too far off the track. So I'd like to think that people will point out logic flaws and other thinking errors-- especially if they have better suggestions. This board is a great place for floating trial balloons, and I've had more than my share shotgunned. That's how I learn.

It's easy to criticize a moderator. It's harder to be one. If your conviction is backed up by commitment & credibility, then let Dory know how you'd like to improve the board. A financial donation to Dory's server fund and another moderator volunteer is always appreciated!

[dory36]

Not sure what all the fuss is about. I read Nords' response when he posted it, and it seemed then, and still seems upon rereading, to be an ordinary response to an ordinary question, with both parties being in roughly the same situation, just in a different phase.

The response contained the same "here's what to expect, here's how to deal with it" advice concerning both military career and real estate issues for military folks that I expect any response to those questions would elicit from those with experience.

Perhaps it's the difference between military life and civilian life that might make the advice seem harsh to someone who hasn't spent many years in the military. I'm not promoting either one, but the fact that in the military you know you will have to uproot and move so a different part of the world every few years puts anything "long term" in a whole different perspective.

[theronware]

Gosh, Nords.

For one moment there, I thought you actually got it.* Less is more.* Step back and don't feel the need to occupy all the board space that you possibly can, and let others "own" it as much as you.* Nope. You were off surfing rather than intentionally maintaining a low profile.* (FYI, I was baking apple pies, and then trying to reach all those wretchedly inaccessible corners of the house with my handy feather duster).

"Sea story time.* At one point in my career..."

This is my point.* Your stories are all about YOU and completely irrelevant to the issues at hand.* See SamClem's and Virgina's posts above for an example of someone who has had similar experiences to Matt and post entirely helpful and non self-promoting responses.* You can take those kinds of posts as my answer to your request for "specific hints to lighten up a moderator's touch".

"So, theronware, what's your...experience with "sticking it out until retirement"?* Would Matt (and the rest of us) benefit from hearing about it?"

I retired at age 41 after 15 years as a college professor.* I got there by LBYM -- , my partner and I lived on one of our salaries and saved the other.* We also invested in in DC real estate when it was very cheap and then sold it all last year when the market had reached its frothy top.*

theronware

[astromeria]

Gee, I love Nords' sea stories. I don't share material on this forum with my husband very often (he's just not interested--all I have to do to see his eyes glaze over is mention investing buckets ), but he loves those navy tales.

[Martha]

Welcome Matt and welcome Theronware (I hope).

Matt, I know nothing about the military, but there are plenty here with experience who will give good advice. It looks like your off to a decent start with the comments on this thread. I respect Nords--he gives lots of good advice on this forum.

Theronware, did you chose your name from The Damnation of Theron Ware?

[Nords]

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Originally Posted by theronware Gosh, Nords. For one moment there, I thought you actually got it.* Less is more.* Step back and don't feel the need to occupy all the board space that you possibly can, and let others "own" it as much as you.* Nope. You were off surfing rather than intentionally maintaining a low profile.

Sorry you feel that way, Theronware.* I've been assured that Dory has enough server space to support both of us... probably even all of us.* Golly, maybe he even used some of my financial contributions to support that goal.

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Originally Posted by theronware "Sea story time.* At one point in my career..." This is my point.* Your stories are all about YOU and completely irrelevant to the issues at hand.* See SamClem's and Virgina's posts above for an example of someone who has had similar experiences to Matt and post entirely helpful and non self-promoting responses.* You can take those kinds of posts as my answer to your request for "specific hints to lighten up a moderator's touch".

I'm writing about what I know, and I certainly have a lot of credibility on that topic!* I've also owned rental real estate while transferring to different duty stations, and I've posted about that before.* This time, instead of reciting our previous tales of woe with rental real estate, I chose to tell Matt the tales of others I've known who've had varying degrees of success.

Let's see.* If I discuss my own real estate experiences then I'm irrelevant & self-promoting.* When Samclem & Virginia discuss their own real estate experiences then they're being helpful and non-self-promoting.* If I talk about others' real estate experiences then I'm occupying too much board space.* Thanks for your analogy answer, although I have to admit that I need a little help getting out of this logic box.

I believe one of the most common elements of success among landlords is their ability to be on the scene.* Paying property managers or dropping in once in a while is really hard, especially when you add in a military routine and several time zones.* Under those circumstances an appropriately-valued REIT is probably a better deal, something that just wasn't easily available when I was at the point in my career Matt is at now.

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Originally Posted by theronware "So, theronware, what's your...experience with "sticking it out until retirement"?* Would Matt (and the rest of us) benefit from hearing about it?" I retired at age 41 after 15 years as a college professor.* I got there by LBYM -- , my partner and I lived on one of our salaries and saved the other.* We also invested in in DC real estate when it was very cheap and then sold it all last year when the market had reached its frothy top.

It sounds like you've managed to be a landlord on the scene as well.* My FIL (and a lot of other guys at CBS) did something similar in the Georgetown & Crofton areas in the '70s & '80s.* They were all glad they were landlords in the area.

I also notice that now you have 50% of your posts on topics other than criticizing my apparent board dominance.* You're likely to be far more successful than me at reducing the percentage of a poster's posts about me!* Feel free to send me or Dory a PM or an e-mail if you don't want to post it on the board.*

But if there's not enough room for the two of us, FWIW I've quit posting at all M* boards and at Greaney's ER board.* I don't belong to anything at TMF.* I still post occasionally at Raddr's board but probably only once or twice a week.* So you still have a chance to find a home at ER discussion boards where I won't intrude.*

Now I'm gonna have to go read up on Theron...

[theronware]

Martha:

Yes, I did pick my name from that book!* *Not too many people know that novel!* I actually wrote a chapter on it in my (one and only) published book (ok, so i'm not above a little self-promotion myself).* I am tickled that you picked up the reference.* *

Nords:

Thanks for the heads up on* the other ER boards, some of which I do frequent.* But I think I'll stick around here too.* M* boards tend to get a trifle dry.

Theronware

[HFWR]

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Now I'm gonna have to go read up on Theron...

Or just look at the pictures... :P

[laurence]

theronware,

Not seeing how Nords went heavy handed, his post seems completely tepid! Did he use a phrase that triggered a bad memory or something? Nords is retired military, don't you think that's a relevant to some one who's thinking of being retired military?

As moderators we are running about 50/50 on complaints, either "you do too much!" or "you don't do enough!". Sounds about right.

In any case, welcome to both of you and keep posting!

[Dawg52]

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Originally Posted by HFWR Quote: Now I'm gonna have to go read up on Theron... Or just look at the pictures...* :P

Now that caught my attention.*

[Leonidas]

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Originally Posted by HFWR Quote: Now I'm gonna have to go read up on Theron... Or just look at the pictures... :P

As an ex-partner used to say - "she's sleazy in a positive sort of way."

[brewer12345]

theronware, I'm not sure why you have such a hard-on for Nords, but you might spend a leetle more time actually contributing to the board and a leetle less time bitching about moderators. Just a friendly, helpful suggestion.

And for the record, I like the sea stories, too. I had a colleague at my last job who was a (surface) naval officer who had some hysterical sea stories to tell...

[bosco]

I guess I'd like to put in my $.02 worth.

I enjoy Nords' contributions to the board and his sea stories. The ones that ramble on too long are easily dealt with--I skim or skip them. This is a highly personal thing and the vast majority of the time I don't feel that way and has more to do with my mood at the time or my personal situation. If Nords wants to take the time to set down his experiences in that kind of detail, I think he should be encouraged. Not just Nords, but anyone.

In no way did I read his initial response as negative. I thought it was very sane advice, and, coincidently, advice that has relevance to my current situation and thoughts.

I have no problem if people respectfully confront each other on this board, but I find it curious when someone appears out of the blue to do so when they have never had anything else to say. Pretty low on my crediibility scale. Yes, I'm talking about you, Theronware.

And finally, if the moderators can figure out how to deal with Max, I say go for it! I got suckered into an exchange with him and have vowed never to respond to any of his posts again. I have started a couple times, only to delete the response. I don't always agree with everyone here, and have had words with a couple. I don't care if the discussion gets a bit heated or sarcastic, but when it crosses the line into abusive I hope to have the self-discipline to just shut up and bail out.

[brewer12345]

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Originally Posted by bosco And finally, if the moderators can figure out how to deal with Max, I say go for it!* I got suckered into an exchange with him and have vowed never to respond to any of his posts again.* I have started a couple times, only to delete the response.* I don't always agree with everyone here, and have had words with a couple.* I don't care if the discussion gets a bit heated or sarcastic, but when it crosses the line into abusive I hope to have the self-discipline to just shut up and bail out.*

I have to pile on here.* Time to get rid of that abusive, obnoxious troll.* Never adds anything but discord and aggravation.* Moving on up to close in on h-0-5-u-c in my book.

Get out the tar and feathers, boys.* And I wanna pitch cap him!

[dex]

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Originally Posted by theronware Nords-- Aren't you supposed to be the moderator of this board rather than the heavy handed naysayer? This is only my second post but I've been reading diligently for the last six months. And I've gotten to the point where I wonder where on earth you're coming from in response to some of the new posters. Theronware

Being a modirator does not preclude you from offering you input. I think Nords knows of what he speaks. Also, the time and effort he puts into his posts is appreciated.