Realistic = no hope!

[traineeinvestor]

Personally, the only reason I can imagine for becoming an expat would be if our country went down some insane road of internal (then external) genocide like Germany did in the 1930s.

There are lots of good reasons to become an expat: to see something of the world, for immigrants and their descendants to get to know their/their family's country of origin, to earn a better income. Some people do it temporarily, some long term and some forever. In my own case I set off to spend a year in Hong Kong before going on to the UK to do postgrad studies. I was enjoying myself and kept postponing the postgrad studies - 17 years, a wife and two children later I'm still in Hong Kong and can't see myself living anywhere else.

 

[Cattusbabe]

I consider myself to be an average Joe - never had one of those really high paying jobs or stock options, slowly progressed up the ladder to a mid-level position and saved when I could. In a year or two I'll retire and I'm pretty sure we will be able to live much the same as we have been for the past 40 years - decently, solidly middle class, not extravagently yet not in need of anything. All this on a middle of the road income, very little house trading (lived in same house for 27 years) and no keeping up with the neighbors.

Our kids went to public schools and colleges (for both bachelors and masters degrees). My DW and I went to "free" public colleges - meaning they were free to us, but someone else (the taxpayer) was footing the bill. I also earned graduate degrees through the munificence of the GI bill program (before they made soldiers put in their own money).

I've seen countless arguments in many places by people who don't want to pay for other's school, health, etc. The problem with that logic is that we all take advantage (or have the ability to) of taxpayer funded programs unless we are so rich we can fund everything ourselves. Taxes are the consequence of living in a free society. Right now our federal tax burden is the lowest it has been in a very long time. I certainly don't want to pay more for things I don't use, but fully understand the necessity of spreading the pain around. At one point or another, I believe most people have used some or many of the benefits available. I've been unemployed and received unemployment insurance. Our kids received federal college loans. And it goes on.

FWIW, we have lived in Europe (courtesy of the US Army) and there is nothing more that Europeans like to complain about than the high taxes. The VAT runs from 15% to 30% in most European countries - think about it - clothes that would cost 100 Euros cost 130 Euros with the VAT. Plus income taxes are pretty high in all those countries and downright confiscatory in some (Great Britain). If I am not mistaken, I believe the highest US tax bracket at one time in our not so distant past was as high as 90%. And now the highest marginal rate is something like 35% (?) - I don't know exactly as I've never hit that level.

Personally, the only reason I can imagine for becoming an expat would be if our country went down some insane road of internal (then external) genocide like Germany did in the 1930s. Nor can I picture events which would turn me so violently against our government that I would go "off the grid" and risk everything just to protest high taxes.

I don't know if brogan is a citizen, if he votes or what his income is. But I have not missed an election in 40 years (though some were done absentee) and I have no qualms at all about expressing my views to our elected representatives. That's the way our society works - I really do believe in the addage "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Great post. You stated it much better than I could have.

 

[NW-Bound]

Regarding HK's apparently low tax rates, this has been brought up in the past in a thread by Dex, I think. The discussion was not about relocating there, but rather as an example that a country may not need a highly progressive tax to prosper. And by the way, I have not seen Dex for a while.

Note that I used the word "apparent" because I have not even visited HK, leave alone live there or know someone who does, in order to understand if there aren't other hidden taxes, or how HK's social services compare to those of other places.

From another member, Trek, I also learned that Estonia also has a flatter tax rate than the US. Yet, it appears to have a decent public health care system as Trek described. Does it have less waste than the US? Better and more efficient "gummint"?

Again, I do not see myself leaving the US. Just mentioning the other territories or nations as something for us to study. They could be doing something right that we can emulate. Just sayin'...

 

[traineeinvestor]

Regarding HK's apparently low tax rates, this has been brought up in the past in a thread by Dex, I think. The discussion was not about relocating there, but rather as an example that a country may not need a highly progressive tax to prosper. And by the way, I have not seen Dex for a while.

Note that I used the word "apparent" because I have not even visited HK, leave alone live there or know someone who does, in order to understand if there aren't other hidden taxes, or how HK's social services compare to those of other places.

The tax rates in HK are low - the highest effective tax rate for salaries is 15%. Business taxes and taxes on rental income are at similar levels. There is no tax on income earned outside of Hong Kong, no tax on interest, no tax on dividends, no capital gains tax and no estate duty.

There are very high import duties on cars - but the public transport is excellent and cheap so a car is unnecessary here - and certain other goods like tobacco and petrol. We did have 80% duty on wine but that was abolished to the detriment of my liver.

There is stamp duty on property transactions (up to 3.75% paid by buyer only) and shares (0.1% paid by buyer and seller).

The public health system is very good and very low cost to users. Subsidised accomodation for low income families and individuals is available. Unemployment benefits and old age pensions exist but are limited compared to the US model.

The two major negatives with living in Hong Kong are housing - which is very expensive - and the air quality which is deterorating rapidly as the economic recovery gathers pace.

The Hong Kong government has substantial fiscal reserves and uses a conservative Keynsian approach to managing its finances (i.e. it runs a surplus during good years and a deficit during bad years to stimulate the economy).

I could go on, but this is starting to read like an advertisement for the city.

 

[beowulf]

Not sure if I am missing something, but isn't Hong Kong a special administrative region of the People's Republic of China?? Since about 1997? That means the ChiComs can do whatever they want whenever they want to Hong Kong and no one anywhere else has any say in it whatsoever. Right now it's strictly hands off, but that could easily change if the US gets into some major dispute with China. Not sure I would want to risk my future for anything they have to offer.

BTW, spending a few years overseas, whether for education, or to see the world is not being an ex-pat to me. Moving overeas permanently is. Funny thing is that I can't find much evidence of too many countries other than the US where people risk death and imprisonment to get in.

 

[harley]

In France, you get awesome wine, great art, and nuclear power plants everywhere......and of course socialiazed medicine. Oops, I almost forgot, you also get a military that's so bad you need to ask the US for help in every conflict..........

A couple of years ago I was browsing through a pawn shop, and the owner was trying to sell me a pistol. His description of it's condition was that it was as if it had been owned by a Frenchman, never been fired and only dropped once.

 

[NW-Bound]

I just recall finding this joke on the Internet.

A Dutch tour guide explains to a group of American tourists about his national flag. "The colors of our flag symbolize our taxation system. We turn red when talking about it. We turn white when we receive the tax bill, and turn blue after we pay it".

An American nodded. "I know. It is the same in the US, except that we see stars too."
​

I did a search on the Web, and found this joke in multiple places. It always involves the Dutch, so the joke's originator must be Dutch because several other nations also have flags with the three colors mentioned above.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Oops, I almost forgot, you also get a military that's so bad you need to ask the US for help in every conflict..........

That is why they created the French Foreign Legion. Pretty tough bastards by all accounts.

Don't forget, the US very likely owes its existence to the French, whose navy appeared on the scene at the right time and changed the British military minds about continuing the war of 1776. Historically, we owe them Big Time.

We are also very similar in national character--enthocentric, arrogant, imaginative, independent, brass cojones. No wonder we peck at each others livers.

I also credit them with helping win the Cold War. The Russians wanted to negotiate with the West as a bloc. The French "Force Frappe" (French nuclear force) was a spanner in the works and drove the Reds crazy, since they insisted upon being dealt with independently of the US/Britain/NATO. It is harder to win in a poker game with more than two players. There was even a time when the French Communist Party was against nuclear disarmament. They did not trust the Russians. Unlike my government, I appreciate true independence.

"Lafayette, we are here!" Somebody remembered.

Gypsy

 

[traineeinvestor]

Not sure if I am missing something, but isn't Hong Kong a special administrative region of the People's Republic of China?? Since about 1997? That means the ChiComs can do whatever they want whenever they want to Hong Kong and no one anywhere else has any say in it whatsoever. Right now it's strictly hands off, but that could easily change if the US gets into some major dispute with China. Not sure I would want to risk my future for anything they have to offer.

Technically no. HK has a constiution which guarantees (among other things) all the usual personal freedoms which was negotiated between the British and the PRC before the 1997 hand over. So far the PRC has respected the decisions of the HK courts even when those decisions have gone against the wishes of the PRC government and there have been no instances of the PRC attempting to erode personal freedoms in Hong Kong. Sure, the future can always change but that is true of all countries. This is not something I lose sleep over.

Funny thing is that I can't find much evidence of too many countries other than the US where people risk death and imprisonment to get in.

The US is certainly a popular place for migrants (and deservedly so). There are other places which people will take considerable risks to enter. Indonesian boat people attempting to enter Australia is one of several examples I can think of. In most case, the push factor from the country of origin is what drives these people.

 

[samclem]

Funny thing is that I can't find much evidence of too many countries other than the US where people risk death and imprisonment to get in.

People in North Korea risk death and the imprisonment of their families when the try to escape to the PRC. You know just how bad a country has to be if China is where their people hope to escape to.

 

[LARS]

I have no qualms at all about expressing my views to our elected representatives. That's the way our society works"

I commend you for expressing your views to our elected representatives. I do as well. However, I am no longer convinced that "that's the way our society works". Quite the contray I am afraid.

Elected officials, from my vantage point, do not seem to be overly concerned with average voters and their opinions. Big dollar donations along with gerry-rigged voting districts has made nearly all, if not all, national politicians beholden to a select group of folks and their money.

 

[brogan007]

LARS

LARS
Your point is another area with basically the same theme I've been ranting about. (....wonder why you've not been stoned yet?)
The "system" USED to work, was designed to work but sure as hell no longer works.
BUT....the Sheeple ( oops, there's that word again) have to be herded along as believers so the Boy's Club in Washington can continue with their game.
It's so damned obvious. Yet the US public seems content to have lobbyists, or professional bibers, as the main influence on the "duely elected officials"
What a joke. Who runs America. Not the public, not by a long shot.
Corporations with $$$$$$$$$$$$ run America. Banks mainly.
Yet another reason to vote with my feet and my retirement accounts & leave the ship like the rat some of you portray me as

 

[calmloki]

LARS
Your point is another area with basically the same theme I've been ranting about. (....wonder why you've not been stoned yet?)
The "system" USED to work, was designed to work but sure as hell no longer works.
BUT....the Sheeple ( oops, there's that word again) have to be herded along as believers so the Boy's Club in Washington can continue with their game.
It's so damned obvious. Yet the US public seems content to have lobbyists, or professional bibers, as the main influence on the "duely elected officials"
What a joke. Who runs America. Not the public, not by a long shot.
Corporations with $$$$$$$$$$$$ run America. Banks mainly.
Yet another reason to vote with my feet and my retirement accounts & leave the ship like the rat some of you portray me as

Still haven't heard where you plan to run to - is it a big secret or do you actually have a retirement haven in mind that we should investigate? Did I miss your answer?

 

[Razor]

I wonder where our retirement nest eggs would be had the government not bailed out Wall Street last year.

 

[LARS]

I wonder where our retirement nest eggs would be had the government not bailed out Wall Street last year.

Be careful confusing "motion" with "progress".

 

[Razor]

Be careful confusing "motion" with "progress".

.....and I wonder if the government will bail out Wall Street next time..

 

[bbbamI]

 

[harley]

LARS
Your point is another area with basically the same theme I've been ranting about. (....wonder why you've not been stoned yet?)

Possibly because LARS presents his views respectfully and politely, so that even if one doesn't agree with them they are worthy of consideration and reply. As opposed to sounding like a 12 year old whining about how unfair it is that their brother got the bigger twinkie.

And for all you know, maybe he IS stoned.

 

[samclem]

Yet another reason to vote with my feet and my retirement accounts & leave the ship like the rat some of you portray me as

As one airline puts it:

 

[SarahW]

Yet another reason to vote with my feet and my retirement accounts & leave the ship like the rat some of you portray me as

I suppose my reading comprehension is questionable, but are you in the USA or in Europe?

 

[beowulf]

LARS
Your point is another area with basically the same theme I've been ranting about. (....wonder why you've not been stoned yet?)
The "system" USED to work, was designed to work but sure as hell no longer works.
BUT....the Sheeple ( oops, there's that word again) have to be herded along as believers so the Boy's Club in Washington can continue with their game.
It's so damned obvious. Yet the US public seems content to have lobbyists, or professional bibers, as the main influence on the "duely elected officials"
What a joke. Who runs America. Not the public, not by a long shot.
Corporations with $$$$$$$$$$$$ run America. Banks mainly.
Yet another reason to vote with my feet and my retirement accounts & leave the ship like the rat some of you portray me as

I think this is from Winston Churchill "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others." When someone comes up with a better form of representative democracy than the one we have (including all the warts, crooks, etc.), I would sure like to hear about it. To be blunt brogan, you sound a lot like one of those militia guys who believe that our democracy is not worth saving. I'm sure I'm not the first to say this, but, as you depart our shores, don't let the door hit you in the butt. And, just out of mundance curiosity, what have YOU ever done to make things better in this country - run for office, served in the military, done any kind of pubic service, actually voted?? Sounds a lot to me like you've taken advantage of everything you could, including accumulating wealth, but have never given a damn thing back. It may be corny, but I still believe in what JFK said "Ask not what your contry can do for you, but what you can do for your country." Sounds like the best thing you can do for us and yourself is to leave.

And yes, I am an unashamed patriot, and I did defend my country, and did devote most of my life to military and public service - and my country has been very good to me in return.

 

[easysurfer]

I've tested the "Add to Ignore List" function on a certain user (hint: ends in 007) and that function works fine!