Very high income… but how long to keep this up?

Thanks again to all who contribute to this forum and to those who thoughtfully replied to my earlier posts... now 1.5 years ago!

That point in my life marked the beginning of some big changes, in part inspired by this board (which I continue to stalk daily :). We sold our expensive home and paid cash for a home in a lower COL area. We cut our living expenses (with basically zero pain) by 40% by just paying better attention. And the income kept going up as expected.

...

Thank you all for your insight and encouragement.


That is awesome. It is awesome you provided an update since so many people never do. Also really awesome you were able to lower your cost of living so much. Though our income is not quite what yours is it is higher than average and I have found it so easy for the higher than average life to come with it. Each year our standard of living slowly creeps up. What you have done is really great. Good work!
 
Outstanding work on lowering your current Cost of Living and Expenses! I think that is the best thing you could have done and it will add up to extra money in your pocket every month!
You don't need to live like a pauper, and you can afford not to, but we all know there are things we could cut that won't really impact our enjoyment of life at all.
Nice job! :clap:
 
Medved and Ruminator;

I have conversed privately with both of you and procrastinated about the retirement decision for 3 years. I close on the sale of my business in three weeks. Then work three days per week until December 31 then done working (except for a 5 year consulting contract that does not require me to be in the office ever). I am 56 and as I remember further along concerning the age of my kids and other issues.

I will let you know how the phase-out during the next 6 months progresses and thereafter. As we have discussed I never identified with my job or position and honestly did it in large measure for the money. I have plans to keep busy and my wife and I plan to spend 2-3 months per year traveling for the first few years. Given the amount I have worked over the past 30 years I am curious how this new lifestyle will go. My son is just beginning his career and adjusting to that change. I think my adjustment (and my wife's who has been stay at home since 1997) will be greater. But boy, am I looking forward to doing some adjusting......
 
Phil - best of luck with it. I will be interested to hear how it goes. I imagine you will have a great time and that whatever "adjustment" there is will be a positive. And the consulting arrangement sounds like good "downside" protection -- if you miss work it will give you something work-like to do. But you probably won't miss work....
 
You are correct -- I am a "Rumintator" too, even though you own the name!

Like you, I never thought that I identified much with my work or that my "sense of self" came from my work. I often told people "this is what I do; it is not who I am." Much of the time, I did not even really like what I was doing, though I was pretty successful at it. And I certainly have other interests, though they have been shoved aside by years of long hours at work (and by kids, etc.). But as it gets closer to the point at which I could actually pull the plug, I worry that maybe I am deriving more of my sense of self-worth from work than I would like to admit to myself. It seems the only way to test that is to leave and see how things go -- but that is a high-risk experiment.

That gets to the issue of how easy it would be for me to return, if I were to leave and then subsequently change my mind. I could probably get back into it if I made the decision to do so within a couple of years after leaving, but I would likely take a big pay cut. And as time passed, it would become more difficult, even if I were willing to do the same work for much lower pay. I am operating under the assumption that "when I am done, I am done."

It would be very unusual, in my company, for me to leave in my mid 50s. I can recall only two other people who have done that, in the 25 years or so I have been here. You might say "what difference does it make how common it is; you should do what you want, not what others choose". I guess that is right. But the environment creates a certain "baseline" for one's thinking. If there's hundreds of people standing around the perimeter of the swimming pool, but nobody has jumped in, you will probably think twice before taking the leap. ("I think I fancy a swim, but all these other people are pretty much the same as me -- I wonder why none of them are in the pool").

I like your "thought experiment" (why am I working if I have enough money; would I do this for free). I guess I would say if I continue to work it would be to increase the margin of error (increase the likelihood that I will have enough money to meet my needs and wants for the rest of my life). Even if the odds are pretty high, they could be higher. Inflation could be higher than expected. I could live longer than anticipated. My kids could need more support than I anticipate. My wife or I might decide we would like to spend a lot more than we presently anticipate. I realize this risk-averse mindset could lead one to work forever. I don't want that. Really, there is zero chance I would work past age 60. It is just a question of how much before that I retire. (I am 52 now).

Besides being risk averse, why might I continue? Possible answers: it is the path of least resistance (an object in motion...); slight fear of the unknown (what if I don;t like it); everyone else is doing it (follow the crowd); the external validation thing; a desire to leave on a high point (things are not going as great for me right now; I hate to feel like I left at a low point); and ability to do more charitably. I realize these are not very good answers (with possible exception of the last one). But they are a part of what I am trying to sort through.

On the other hand, a motivator to leave is that I am really not enjoying work very much these days. I am frustrated and annoyed at it. Why should I live my life frustrated and annoyed, if I don't have to? Why not accept the benefit of the money I have earned and saved?

Regarding "wife as psychologist" -- yea, many of us have that, I guess (when we want it, and maybe even when we do not!). The problem is she's too close to the situation. I feel like I need a sounding board who is totally objective and has no skin in the game.

There are others in this similar situation. As a now former very high income earner (7 figures/year) I can share my very recent feelings about ER - particularly as it relates to a career very tied to one's identity.

I think I might have just ER'd from medicine. I was hoping to stay part-time for the "intrinsic reward" of taking care of my patients and enjoying my specific "craft". Issues at the new gig caused me to pull the plug earlier than I anticipated as I could not operate at the very high level I am used to doing.

While I am only 2 weeks in I can share that I have had a roller coaster of emotions about this. One minute I start considering new opportunities that are being presented. The next I am grateful my next day is completely open and I don't have to deal with all the hassles, politics, etc. Financially I know we are good but given I am 44 with a younger wife and two young kids I can't help but second guess it as well. Surely this is normal, right?!

I often felt different than most physicians. In our field one's identity and self-worth is very tied to the profession. The egos are generally huge to the point of arrogance. The docs I know live, breath, eat medicine. I was never this way.

I graduated near the top of my class, entered a highly competitive field and practiced a speciality not many do. I enjoyed the "craft" I performed each day very much. Yet I was always excited to walk out the door at the end of the day.

It is rare for anyone under 60 to retire, unheard of anyone in their 40s.

In spite of that fact I felt I didn't let medicine become my identity, undeniably I have felt a strange reluctance to not be known as such. I am a bit surprised by these feelings. It's quite early so perhaps they shall pass with time.

Don't want to hijack the thread but hopefully sharing my experiences so far will help you.
 
Don't want to hijack the thread but hopefully sharing my experiences so far will help you.[/QUOTE]

As the one who started the thread, I assure you that you are not hijacking it! It is supremely valuable (for me at least) to hear the experience of someone who so recently made such a similar transition. I hope you'll continue to post about your experience.

I hear you on your point that you "often felt different than most physicians". My field is somewhat similar - very competitive to get in, and fairly prestigious + financially rewarding once you do (esp at higher ranks), leading to a mentality of keeping the gravy train rolling at senior levels. In our organization, ER at 45 or so - my current plan - would be extraordinarily unusual, though not unprecedented. In talking with a couple people who have ER'd that young, we share our disbelief at how long most colleagues continue work for material gains beyond what they could possibly need. So there is a cohort of us who think alike...

P.S. I hope now that you are ER, you will soon be able to change your username to "Travelgotten"!! :)
 
Interesting to hear your perspective, Travelwanted. And I will look forward to hearing how things go for you.

You had the "helping patients" benefit to your job. My job, by contrast, is not very socially useful. Nobody who truly needs help is helped by my work. Maybe if I were helping people, that would be a motivator to keep doing it. I don't know. I would have liked to be a doctor, but I could barely pass high school chemistry.
 
You are correct -- I am a "Rumintator" too, even though you own the name!

Like you, I never thought that I identified much with my work or that my "sense of self" came from my work. I often told people "this is what I do; it is not who I am." Much of the time, I did not even really like what I was doing, though I was pretty successful at it. And I certainly have other interests, though they have been shoved aside by years of long hours at work (and by kids, etc.). But as it gets closer to the point at which I could actually pull the plug, I worry that maybe I am deriving more of my sense of self-worth from work than I would like to admit to myself. It seems the only way to test that is to leave and see how things go -- but that is a high-risk experiment.

That gets to the issue of how easy it would be for me to return, if I were to leave and then subsequently change my mind. I could probably get back into it if I made the decision to do so within a couple of years after leaving, but I would likely take a big pay cut. And as time passed, it would become more difficult, even if I were willing to do the same work for much lower pay. I am operating under the assumption that "when I am done, I am done."

It would be very unusual, in my company, for me to leave in my mid 50s. I can recall only two other people who have done that, in the 25 years or so I have been here. You might say "what difference does it make how common it is; you should do what you want, not what others choose". I guess that is right. But the environment creates a certain "baseline" for one's thinking. If there's hundreds of people standing around the perimeter of the swimming pool, but nobody has jumped in, you will probably think twice before taking the leap. ("I think I fancy a swim, but all these other people are pretty much the same as me -- I wonder why none of them are in the pool").

I like your "thought experiment" (why am I working if I have enough money; would I do this for free). I guess I would say if I continue to work it would be to increase the margin of error (increase the likelihood that I will have enough money to meet my needs and wants for the rest of my life). Even if the odds are pretty high, they could be higher. Inflation could be higher than expected. I could live longer than anticipated. My kids could need more support than I anticipate. My wife or I might decide we would like to spend a lot more than we presently anticipate. I realize this risk-averse mindset could lead one to work forever. I don't want that. Really, there is zero chance I would work past age 60. It is just a question of how much before that I retire. (I am 52 now).

Besides being risk averse, why might I continue? Possible answers: it is the path of least resistance (an object in motion...); slight fear of the unknown (what if I don;t like it); everyone else is doing it (follow the crowd); the external validation thing; a desire to leave on a high point (things are not going as great for me right now; I hate to feel like I left at a low point); and ability to do more charitably. I realize these are not very good answers (with possible exception of the last one). But they are a part of what I am trying to sort through.

On the other hand, a motivator to leave is that I am really not enjoying work very much these days. I am frustrated and annoyed at it. Why should I live my life frustrated and annoyed, if I don't have to? Why not accept the benefit of the money I have earned and saved?

Regarding "wife as psychologist" -- yea, many of us have that, I guess (when we want it, and maybe even when we do not!). The problem is she's too close to the situation. I feel like I need a sounding board who is totally objective and has no skin in the game.

+1
I feel like you are in my head. I am the same age and had/continue to have the same internal debates. FI plan is 55 when last kid graduates from college and all the math looks good, but for all the reasons you mentioned, I continue to have pause. My plan at this point (most coming from advice from others on this site) is to use the next 3 yrs exploring/doing test runs of what FIRE life may look like, including doing a 12 month financial test seeing if I can/want to live in my projected FIRE budget ($200K+) before I turn the hose off cold turkey. Also, the law of averages says our health only continues to be at risk as we continue to age. This is giving me some pause as my plan (which has already started) is to do certain things now/sooner that 1) cost more, 2) require more physical challenges. This means I think I will be spending more in the first say 10 - 15 yrs of RE than say the later years (barring some excessive medical expenses).

Great thread
 
I continue to have pause.

It is certainly understandable that DawgMan continues of have pause.

The financial test you suggest is probably worthwhile, and others have suggested something similar, but for us I am afraid it would not work because: (1) our expenses post retirement would be very different than our current expenses (we still have a kid at home and one in college), including in some ways that I would find difficult to quantify or even estimate; and (2) we have never done any sort of budgeting at all (wife is resistant to it -- she just says "we have enough money so we should just buy whatever we want.")

For me, the psychological issues predominate over the financial ones. I guess I find some comfort in knowing that others are working through the same issues, and I gain some insights from what others write about their thought process.
 
It is certainly understandable that DawgMan continues of have pause.

The financial test you suggest is probably worthwhile, and others have suggested something similar, but for us I am afraid it would not work because: (1) our expenses post retirement would be very different than our current expenses (we still have a kid at home and one in college), including in some ways that I would find difficult to quantify or even estimate; and (2) we have never done any sort of budgeting at all (wife is resistant to it -- she just says "we have enough money so we should just buy whatever we want.")

For me, the psychological issues predominate over the financial ones. I guess I find some comfort in knowing that others are working through the same issues, and I gain some insights from what others write about their thought process.
A brief comment only on the financial aspect referenced above, Mint is a lifesaver. With minimum effort on your part, you will find out what you are actually spending and bring a level of insight and confidence to the topic you could not otherwise imagine having. I am starting my second year and I consider it a mandatory part of FIRE planning on any budget . I am in exactly the same snack bracket being discussed in this thread (age, kids, income, net worth) and it is proving hugely helpful.
 
...

The financial test you suggest is probably worthwhile, and others have suggested something similar, but for us I am afraid it would not work because: (1) our expenses post retirement would be very different than our current expenses (we still have a kid at home and one in college), including in some ways that I would find difficult to quantify or even estimate; and (2) we have never done any sort of budgeting at all (wife is resistant to it -- she just says "we have enough money so we should just buy whatever we want.")

...

FWIW, we are older (mid 50s) and not in the same income stratum as many on this thread--probably just "[-]very[/-] high" income (obg and lawyer). We are, however, in your budgeting camp--never have done it. I've tracked our spending retrospectively in quicken for years though, which has put us in a position to guestimate spending in retirement. Mint would serve same purpose if you don't need investment capabilities of quicken.

Like you, our spending now has little semblance to what it will be beginning next year. But, I've given DW a projected/sustainable spending number, which she has used when ballparking travel expenses (the majority of our projected retirement spending for 10-15 years). Predicting the high end of such expenses was easy, as it tends to be our present trips. The long/slow journeys are a little more difficult, but there are a lot of resources and blogs to assist in spending estimates for them.

Combining her research results with the nondiscretionary spending of the past few years since kids departed, we know that we can live quite well and do pretty much everything we'd want on XXX% of what we spend now; and if markets don't cooperate, we can cut back drastically and still live better than we do now (because of having days off!). This was enough to let us give notice of the need to find replacements for us.

Granted, this isn't fine grained analysis of the type that many people on this forum have employed, but you have to start somewhere. Given your numbers, I suspect you could be even more flexible that we can be, which obviates the need for a great deal of precision.

_____
E.T.A.--projecting costs for the kids' remaining years in your wallet would probably be easier than projecting your couple costs 10 years out...
 
Interesting... Some of you don't actually budget/track your expenses. I would have thought most everyone was anal (me included) in tracking/planning your trajectory. I'm also picking up another vibe that is foreign/uncomfortable to me personally, but have heard this in my local hood. I have a old school "traditional" family whereby my wife stayed home since kid 1 was born (4 kids later) and that has worked great for us. Well, she has 0 interest in finances despite my attempts to explain to her how the financial machine works especially in the case I get hit by a car. On the other hand, I am a control freak that pays all the bills/invests/budgets/plans so I am the man behind the curtain. Not sure what would happen if I wasn't driving the bus. None the less, been married 28 yrs and this works for us. What I have seen often is men who have traditional similar setups, but DW runs the ship and DH "gets an allowance" with little knowledge of how the master plan works. No judgement here, just an interesting observation.
 
Reading this forum inspired me to sit down tonight and calculate (at least roughly) what I spent in calendar year 2015. It was an interesting exercise. It revealed some things that I guess I knew or suspected, but became clear. Aside from taxes, it showed that my major expenses are: stuff for the kids, my wife's discretionary expenses, various forms of insurance, medical care, and restaurant meals -- followed by home maintenance and travel. It also reinforced what I thought was the case, which is that my current expenses are not a very good proxy for what my expenses are likely to be in retirement. But I guess it is a data point. It will be interesting to see how 2016 compares to 2015.
 
I think it is both a personal and a financial decision. To live on $350k, you will need roughly $10-12mm in non qualified accounts depending on how you are invested, or $12-14mm in qualified accounts. Non-qualified money is worth 15-20% more from a retirement income perspective.


I burned out this year and sold my business. I now consult part time but I have to admit, it is scaring the hell out of me to be retired with three kids under 6 at 44 years of age. I have $7mm in investments, $600k in home equity on a $1.6mm house that I am debating whether I want to pay off, and $1.15 mm for the kids education. If I pay off the house, the $6mm would produce about 200k per year in income, and our expenses would be about $220k with out a mortgage. I live in Fairfield County CT so this is actually pretty bare bones to live a lifestyle like our peers. We also use $24k in income from the education fund for sports and activities.


Basically, we are $20k short of our lifestyle on our investments, but my wife makes $12k teaching part time and I make $75k consulting. If I were you, and you need $350k, I would make $10mm the goal, unless you were like me and miserable working basically all of the time.
 
and $1.15 mm for the kids education..

Wow - $1.15mm for saved for the kids' education! Does that include private schools prior to university, or just anticipated university expenses? If the latter, that seems very high.

When I first got promoted at my organization, one of the top dogs gave me some good advice: "if you want to financially comfortable, there's three things you should do: send your kids to public school, keep living in whatever house you live in now (don't trade up because your pay is going up), and stay married to your first wife. I have done all three; worked out pretty well.
 
Neat to hear from the next level, the insecurities of walking away strike at all income levels. I'm shooting for a third of his retirement goal and feeling it's quite comfortable!

I work closely with C suite execs and noticed that as they enter their 50's and are still hard charging they only take off work to deal with their teenage kids - drugs, etc. Can't make up for time with your kids with $$. I had one guy call me on my cell on a Sunday asking "what's up with the radio silence??" as I hadn't responded to his email. Now that I've got a target date locked in and a countdown started, I've spoken to a few of them about it and they are wide eyed with a look of "how'd you do that??" I don't explicitly point out my mortgage is 1/2 to 1/4 of theirs but I mention where I live and how we've kept expenses low and that I'll still have some part time work and let it go at that. 394 work days left...but who's counting?
 
Wow - $1.15mm for saved for the kids' education! Does that include private schools prior to university, or just anticipated university expenses? If the latter, that seems very high.

When I first got promoted at my organization, one of the top dogs gave me some good advice: "if you want to financially comfortable, there's three things you should do: send your kids to public school, keep living in whatever house you live in now (don't trade up because your pay is going up), and stay married to your first wife. I have done all three; worked out pretty well.


This is for university and graduate school, or medical school etc. I like to quip that my kids will either go to UConn or Yale. That may be an exaggeration but unless it is a top decile university or private school, UConn is probably as good as anything else. I have low return assumptions, 6.5% and spending 2.5% a year this should grow to $1.9mm or so in 15 years, which will be about $600k per child. That will be just enough for either option.
 
I had a friend who put life's tribulations and triumphs in perspective by saying, "Eh, nobody's going to remember that in 50 years anyway". I don't find that the least bit depressing but rather, highly logical and liberating.

A given work place is only a train that we're completely on for a while and then completely off, then we're usually forgotten soon enough. That's why they say "Welcome aboard" when you suddenly materialized in their midst. They also say "Happy Trails" when you leave, meaning "You're now cut from the work herd and so I won't have a reason to invest any further 'bandwidth' in you, but 'so long'." That's just the way it is because we were only really there to solve particular problems for a business in return for payment. Why would we let ourselves get too emotionally attached to what really is a commercial relationship, one that usually emphasizes its lack of commitment to you in the employee handbook in the section stating that is an At-Will Employer. I don't expect to have a hard time letting go and getting on with life when I have enough money saved in 5-7 years because I have learned the hard way twice to invest my emotional health in firmer stuff.

Well said! I couldn't agree more!
 
Interesting... Some of you don't actually budget/track your expenses.

nope; not yet anyway :eek:


DW just looks at the checking account. If it goes down from the prior month, we spent too much.
 

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