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Old 09-12-2021, 02:54 PM   #61
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For someone with a $400K+ income, you don't seem to have that much saved. Therefore, I'm not certain that your $90K budget is reasonable. Have you actually tracked your spending? If you're paying 35% Federal taxes, and some state taxes, you should still have a spendable income of something like $235K+. Typically, the higher one's income, they greater their spending, and the more 'little things' that fall through the cracks. I'd suggest a hard dive into your spending, and a realistic evaluation of how much you'd like to spend in retirement, not how much you can get by on. I started out with an annual goal to spend $75K, but added a house and travel, and doubled my budget to $150K before FIRE to allow me the independence I wanted in retirement. Good luck!
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Old 09-12-2021, 03:50 PM   #62
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OP; It has been pointed out several times that your 90K in expenses doesn't appear to include federal/state income taxes. You have not responded to this point. What say you to this point?

I'm confused as to where the money is from the sale of your business. Did you get anything up front at the time of sale? If not, all is on the back end(?), and that is either 750K if your company makes its numbers or $350K if you leave now? Something doesn't add up.
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Old 09-12-2021, 04:11 PM   #63
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Since you said your wife will continue to work until 60-65 and make $130K, add that to your side hussle of $100K, you can certainly leave your current company. $230K should support your annual expenses for the next 15 years or so, while your investments continue to grow.
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Old 09-12-2021, 04:25 PM   #64
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For someone with a $400K+ income, you don't seem to have that much saved. Therefore, I'm not certain that your $90K budget is reasonable. Have you actually tracked your spending? If you're paying 35% Federal taxes, and some state taxes, you should still have a spendable income of something like $235K+. Typically, the higher one's income, they greater their spending, and the more 'little things' that fall through the cracks. I'd suggest a hard dive into your spending, and a realistic evaluation of how much you'd like to spend in retirement, not how much you can get by on. I started out with an annual goal to spend $75K, but added a house and travel, and doubled my budget to $150K before FIRE to allow me the independence I wanted in retirement. Good luck!
***appreciate that, the numbers you lay out are more or less correct--we are adding about $130-$150K per year over the last several years to the retirement accounts.

The $90K spend rate is pretty accurate over a 2-3 year period. The side hustle as just in the past 2 years become the income earner that it has....

The combination of PE buyout, side hustle growing into significant income, job dissatisfaction, and ability to have stepped up retirement contributions with the initial buy out cash and increase amounts into retirement have led me to this point.
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Old 09-12-2021, 04:27 PM   #65
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OP; It has been pointed out several times that your 90K in expenses doesn't appear to include federal/state income taxes. You have not responded to this point. What say you to this point?

I'm confused as to where the money is from the sale of your business. Did you get anything up front at the time of sale? If not, all is on the back end(?), and that is either 750K if your company makes its numbers or $350K if you leave now? Something doesn't add up.

***I was not aware of the fed/state tax question--yes we have it accounted for though.

As to the business as mentioned in the 1st post---we took "some" up front money with the majority kicked down the road into options and future equity. And yes, there is an offer to take 1/2 now and walk away or take 0 now and continue to run hard/hit numbers and max it out....
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Old 09-13-2021, 06:04 AM   #66
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***I was not aware of the fed/state tax question--yes we have it accounted for though.



As to the business as mentioned in the 1st post---we took "some" up front money with the majority kicked down the road into options and future equity. And yes, there is an offer to take 1/2 now and walk away or take 0 now and continue to run hard/hit numbers and max it out....
OK. Post #9, which you authored, shows the breakdown of your expenses. In which of those categories is your federal and state income tax expense?
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Old 09-13-2021, 06:26 AM   #67
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For someone with a $400K+ income, you don't seem to have that much saved. Therefore, I'm not certain that your $90K budget is reasonable. Have you actually tracked your spending? If you're paying 35% Federal taxes, and some state taxes, you should still have a spendable income of something like $235K+. Typically, the higher one's income, they greater their spending, and the more 'little things' that fall through the cracks. I'd suggest a hard dive into your spending, and a realistic evaluation of how much you'd like to spend in retirement, not how much you can get by on. I started out with an annual goal to spend $75K, but added a house and travel, and doubled my budget to $150K before FIRE to allow me the independence I wanted in retirement. Good luck!
Good point on accurate accounting of spending. I noticed long ago that I was lousy at "estimating" my spending - in individual areas. I finally tracked all spending one year and that's when I realized just how "off" I could be. The good news was that year-over-year, I had a pretty good sense of what we were spending - in total. How this could be, I don't know. For instance, I thought we spent way more on eating out than we actually did and way less than we actually spent on eating at home. I guess it balanced out. When I compared my totals for all categories that one year - I was within 2 or 3% of TOTAL spending. I was way off on many of the categories, but I guess it balanced out. Who knew! YMMV
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Old 09-13-2021, 06:48 AM   #68
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+1 on the salaries don't seem to match the spending/savings numbers.

Taxes are very easy to look over in your spending estimates because they are taken out of your salary before you even seen them. Since you never see them you never "spend" them, i.e. they never hit your bank account(s) that you use to pay bills from, so you never see them leave those accounts either. Please double check that you understand what we're saying about Fed and state taxes.

Maybe I'm a little paranoid about this because I over-looked them right up until about a month before I was going to pull the chute. Luckily I had enough slack, as well as the good fortune of a strong stock market in the previous year to make up for it, but the hit to expenses can be substantial.
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Old 09-13-2021, 08:37 PM   #69
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I'd focus on how stable the side business is and is it something that could grow if you have more time to spend on it? Could you move to another role that may not be as time consuming, keep your equity and focus more efforts on the side hustle?


I think you're in a position to do whatever you choose. Either option still has a very good household income, and only you can decide how much aggravation staying will cause.



It sounds like one of the main things bothering you is leaving equity on the table with the buyout option. Understandable given the work you put into growing the company. I'm sure you've evaluated all your options and rights with your own lawyer. But ultimately, it seems to be a decision of how unhappy the new structure would make you. You may make more by staying, but I think you'd be ok either way if your side hustle is stable.
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Old 09-15-2021, 12:14 PM   #70
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I'd focus on how stable the side business is and is it something that could grow if you have more time to spend on it? Could you move to another role that may not be as time consuming, keep your equity and focus more efforts on the side hustle?


I think you're in a position to do whatever you choose. Either option still has a very good household income, and only you can decide how much aggravation staying will cause.



It sounds like one of the main things bothering you is leaving equity on the table with the buyout option. Understandable given the work you put into growing the company. I'm sure you've evaluated all your options and rights with your own lawyer. But ultimately, it seems to be a decision of how unhappy the new structure would make you. You may make more by staying, but I think you'd be ok either way if your side hustle is stable.
I think the biggest issue/hold up is not knowing when the PE firm is going to spin this off again---at that point I will be able to hit my internal number, walk away and not worry about this being a little too soon.

The problem with that is this could be anywhere from 6 months to 10 years with no telling what end of that timeline....

In regards to the earning vs savings issue that is popping up--outside looking in I guess the concern makes sense--however we are relatively young, have not been earning that income for 20+ years and have a young family--so although we don't have $10mil+ in the coffers I think for being mid forties the amount is pretty decent--decent enough too consider what we are considering now...
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Old 09-17-2021, 01:12 PM   #71
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...
The problem with that is this could be anywhere from 6 months to 10 years with no telling what end of that timeline....
...
That would be too great a timeline for me. I think I'd take the lump sum now, walk away and leave the rest on the table. I'd certainly regret it (probably) if the payout ended up being six months, but if it was anything longer than two years I think I'd feel like I made the right decision.
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Old 09-21-2021, 08:41 PM   #72
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Well I have made 1 decision today---I have agreed to stay onboard and downsize into a production only role and am able to leave the management part. This will come with a small salary hit but free up considerable time to work on personal production and revenue.

It also will allow me to continue to vest into the rest of the stock option/retention plan from the PE folks, and keeps medical insurance for me as long as I am here...

So all in all it is a nice win--the only thing that feels off is the not being in charge piece (or maybe even more so the reporting to the new guard/replacement) That part is causing some angst--if left alone to produce it should be fine---if micromanaged that would not be so great...

Feels a little surreal---I am sure this is the best path but I would also like to fast forward 6 months or so to confirm that....
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Old 09-21-2021, 09:07 PM   #73
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Your decision gives you the breathing room I sense you may have been needing. It isn't irrevocable. You can leave later if things are not to your liking. Seems very reasonable to me. Best of luck. Be sure to let us all know how it is working out (we're sort of "invested" now.)
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Old 09-21-2021, 09:32 PM   #74
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Your decision gives you the breathing room I sense you may have been needing. It isn't irrevocable. You can leave later if things are not to your liking. Seems very reasonable to me. Best of luck. Be sure to let us all know how it is working out (we're sort of "invested" now.)
will do, and Thanks.

If nothing else being able to write out my thoughts and than come back to review helps in the process.
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Old 09-22-2021, 03:19 PM   #75
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Agreed, This seems like a good solution for now and one that leaves all your options open in the future.
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Old 01-12-2022, 09:06 PM   #76
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End of 2021 Update....

Me-Age 42 Salary $200k/year
Side hustle hobby (true desire) currently making $100K

Wife-48 Salary $140K/year (promotion in December--potential bonuses now +$10K)

We have: no debt other than $325K (-$5K) Mortgage, no student loans left, no c-card, no cars, no expensive hobbies other than we love to travel when possible

Expenses: including leisure would be around $100K/year (+10K average since starting to track everything)

$ status:
$395K (+$15K after paying taxes) cash liquid in bank account (still figuring out the move here--would love insight??)
$1,108,000 in 401K accounts (+8K 4th quarter)
$422K in Vanguard brokerage account (up and down 4th on this one)
$226K (+6K in 4th) in low cost annuity with 5 year vesting rider


***look to be in good shape if can keep the course

***DW got a nice promotion with a small base raise but also now eligible for bonuses could be anywhere from $10K to $30K dependent on levels

***new production role for me has not been a great move, it is apparent the new PE folks want the old regime out and its just a matter of can we stick it our or not before the next round of spin off---hard to wrap head around this one but it is what it is---need to reconcile leaving (and leaving $) vs a happier landing spot somewhere else---just rambling but hard to resolve....

Thanks to all for feedback so far--it has been great even if just reading quietly to hear of everyones stories and gaining wisdom thus far---here's to a successful 2022!!
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Old 01-13-2022, 06:55 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by jdunc31 View Post
End of 2021 Update....

Me-Age 42 Salary $200k/year
Side hustle hobby (true desire) currently making $100K

Wife-48 Salary $140K/year (promotion in December--potential bonuses now +$10K)

We have: no debt other than $325K (-$5K) Mortgage, no student loans left, no c-card, no cars, no expensive hobbies other than we love to travel when possible

Expenses: including leisure would be around $100K/year (+10K average since starting to track everything)

$ status:
$395K (+$15K after paying taxes) cash liquid in bank account (still figuring out the move here--would love insight??)
$1,108,000 in 401K accounts (+8K 4th quarter)
$422K in Vanguard brokerage account (up and down 4th on this one)
$226K (+6K in 4th) in low cost annuity with 5 year vesting rider


***look to be in good shape if can keep the course

***DW got a nice promotion with a small base raise but also now eligible for bonuses could be anywhere from $10K to $30K dependent on levels

***new production role for me has not been a great move, it is apparent the new PE folks want the old regime out and its just a matter of can we stick it our or not before the next round of spin off---hard to wrap head around this one but it is what it is---need to reconcile leaving (and leaving $) vs a happier landing spot somewhere else---just rambling but hard to resolve....

Thanks to all for feedback so far--it has been great even if just reading quietly to hear of everyones stories and gaining wisdom thus far---here's to a successful 2022!!
Sorry, I got lost in all the big numbers and you already having everything solved.
I forget... why are you still working again?

Seriously though.
I seem to recall that your DW is having a good time at her role but you aren't. You can spend decades reviewing numbers and dicing into analysis paralysis... and never find the confidence to make a change.
That is certainly true if you're waiting for the boost of confidence to come from the masses here - who are often so conservative that "early retirement" often looks like mid-60s.

Look around. Life can change overnight/in an instance with a simple diagnosis, a passing bus, you name it.
You've don't the work, you're in a good situation (and you can always figure out ways to adapt/make more money later)! Start asking yourself what your perfect day/week/month looks like and make it happen now.

I think it was buddha who said something crazy like...
“The trouble is, you think you have time.”
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Old 02-17-2024, 01:07 AM   #78
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Been awhile start of 2024 update....

Me-Age 44 Salary $150k/year
Side hustle hobby (true desire) currently making $150K

Wife-49 Salary $150K/year

We have: no debt other than $320K Mortgage, no student loans left, no c-card, no cars, no expensive hobbies other than we love to travel when possible

Expenses: including leisure would be around $100K/year (would like to bump this up and start to travel more in 2024 and beyond)

$ status:
$525K cash (in process of moving into various investments)
$1,220,000 in 401K accounts
$600K in Vanguard brokerage account (up and down 4th on this one)
$230K in annuity rolled over from previous life policy


***look to be in good shape if can keep the course--still struggling with concepts of what easing out of sales/production role looks like--age 45 still seems early, but totally ready for it--constant battle here mentally

***Fun to look back on this thread after awhile and see progress on paper--I am stuck in a rut between knowing that I can do some different things and actually doing them--hoping to wrap my head around that this year and keep things on course.

as always input and advice are always welcome!
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Old 02-17-2024, 06:44 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by jdunc31 View Post
Been awhile start of 2024 update....

Me-Age 44 Salary $150k/year
Side hustle hobby (true desire) currently making $150K

Wife-49 Salary $150K/year

We have: no debt other than $320K Mortgage, no student loans left, no c-card, no cars, no expensive hobbies other than we love to travel when possible

Expenses: including leisure would be around $100K/year (would like to bump this up and start to travel more in 2024 and beyond)

$ status:
$525K cash (in process of moving into various investments)
$1,220,000 in 401K accounts
$600K in Vanguard brokerage account (up and down 4th on this one)
$230K in annuity rolled over from previous life policy


***look to be in good shape if can keep the course--still struggling with concepts of what easing out of sales/production role looks like--age 45 still seems early, but totally ready for it--constant battle here mentally

***Fun to look back on this thread after awhile and see progress on paper--I am stuck in a rut between knowing that I can do some different things and actually doing them--hoping to wrap my head around that this year and keep things on course.

as always input and advice are always welcome!
I went as far back as ~ 3yrs ago on your thread. Just a couple of observations. In 2 years, your NW went up ~$400k with a $450k gross income. That seems low to me even with your $100k spend. We are about the same with $250k salaries.

I personally like to be able to mentally remove our after tax income and still have a positive growth on our NW to be comfortable. We have been able to do this for 5 years now, personally.

Regarding your passion / hobby, I'd put as much as possible into a SEP 401k up to your limits and 25% profit contribution too, after getting any company match from your day job...

Look at anything else to legally write off as biz expense too.

We have been saving over 50% of our take home pay for years & this has worked out for us on average to moderate salaries.

Regards to your cash, at minimum, have it in a MM fund making 5.28% currently.
My $. 02
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Old 02-17-2024, 11:14 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by jdunc31 View Post
Been awhile start of 2024 update....

Me-Age 44 Salary $150k/year
Side hustle hobby (true desire) currently making $150K

Wife-49 Salary $150K/year

We have: no debt other than $320K Mortgage, no student loans left, no c-card, no cars, no expensive hobbies other than we love to travel when possible

Expenses: including leisure would be around $100K/year (would like to bump this up and start to travel more in 2024 and beyond)

$ status:
$525K cash (in process of moving into various investments)
$1,220,000 in 401K accounts
$600K in Vanguard brokerage account (up and down 4th on this one)
$230K in annuity rolled over from previous life policy


***look to be in good shape if can keep the course--still struggling with concepts of what easing out of sales/production role looks like--age 45 still seems early, but totally ready for it--constant battle here mentally

***Fun to look back on this thread after awhile and see progress on paper--I am stuck in a rut between knowing that I can do some different things and actually doing them--hoping to wrap my head around that this year and keep things on course.

as always input and advice are always welcome!

Hi there... me again (the little evil dude that sits on your shoulder and asks really hard questions like "what if?"

I remember you writing in 2020 and saying
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Since the sale I am realizing that this is not actually what I want... and am beginning to value my time and freedom far more than adding more $ to the ledger.
Im sure you'll get a plethora of responses here about number and accounts and tax strategies... but what always gets lost in the mix is the bigger questions about what really matter in life (hint: not dollars). Since its unlikely many others will... let's focus on - happiness.

I always find it odd that people make updates here year by year with growing numbers and plans and timelines but very few talk about how happy they are, how much they've reduced stress, how excited they are for having added "X" events or experiences to their life in the last year.

in 2020 you shared that you had about $1.3-1.5M and were making more money from your side hustle (true desire) than the job you realized you didn't want to do.
I may be reading your update wrong, but my fear is that it seems like you're still actively doing that job that you talked about not wanting to be doing 4yrs ago.

Back then you were asking specifically about "what was reasonable" about stepping away and:
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not leaving your family in the poor house and begging for food".
Now you've almost doubled those numbers and it seems like you're asking similar questions.
All due respect... but for perspective - it's pretty difficult to imagine you and your family begging for food.
On the contrary. Have you also asked yourself what you'd do if you knew right now that one of you wouldn't make it to 60 (or 55)? Or if an injury/accident/health crisis/family event would limit your ability to go do/enjoy the things you've beed dreaming of?


Look, I get it.
I remember all these $ fears (and I still have some days now...), but I've also collected more memories and sunrises/sunsets in exotic locations and freedom/happiness in the last 12yrs than I ever thought was possible in a full lifetime (and to be clear... we left with SO MUCH less than you had (and NO plans to make more) when you posted here 4yrs ago, much less now.

You're doing amazing work.
You clearly have you're whole life!

At what point do you sit down and make spreadsheets and "plans" that are more focused on that travel you wanted to do, the places you wanted to go, the experiences you want to share, spending time with your family rather than putting money into an account for them? Your passions and dreams?

I would personally suggest moving away from the spreadsheet and making other lists (doesn't happen or at the least doesn't get reported very much here).

Pour yourselves a glass of wine or a cocktail, sit down with a blank sheet of paper and brainstorm, ideate, write your hopes and dreams with wild abandon without a thought or care for how to pay for them or how you'll get there... let your childlike wonder brain take over and refuse to set rules or limits.

See where it goes. Then look back and see which of those things excite you the most. Was it "no longer working at the job", was it "wine tasting through South America and Asia" was it "riding on the orient express" or "sailing though French Polynesia and smimming with many rays"?

I don't know you well enough to know which of those things are your travel dreams but I know you have them because you mentioned them 4yrs ago.

Here's the thing.
When most people think about their spouse, or their father/grandfather later on... they don't often wish they had more money left behind, they wish they had spent more (quality) time with them. When most people reflect on their own life at the end they don't wish they put another $1M in the bank - they wish they'd left a bit earlier to spend more of it.

We all know you've spent ample time worrying about what happens if you leave to soon and run out of money (because you told us) - but have you truly spent the same amount of time thinking about what happens if you wait too long and don't get to enjoy the fruits of your labor?

Reality says that most of us will die, or have a medical event, or decide we aren't comfortable leaving "at this phase" of the family or grandkids' life and never go at all. If that's a choice someone made intentionally because that's what all the dreaming and visioning told them was their "happy place" than I am ALL FOR IT... but if your desires and true passions are to be traveling and working only on that side hustle - then why aren't you?

Here's the thing I've learned after pulling that terrifying plug and taking the leap 12yrs ago - YOU CAN ALWAYS GO BACK!!

This firm line that everyone is trying to draw attached to random number/calculation at the bottom of a spreadsheet simply isn't written in sharpie.
The world (and your accounts and your decisions) are not black and white. Every day you are out there living/enjoying life is a day you're still breathing (and therefore winning). You still get to make decisions about where to save or splurge, you can still take projects and/or sell things while traveling and living the life of your dreams (ask me how I know).


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I am stuck in a rut between knowing that I can do some different things and actually doing them--hoping to wrap my head around that this year and keep things on course.
I have a secret for you - you CAN ACTUALLY live an amazing life AND make more money... but that seems really difficult to see when stuck inside the box we were all told was the "only way" and when everyone writing you is also terrified of leaving so they keep telling you that the number needs to be higher "to be safe"

Here's a thought (happens to be very similar to what we did):
What if...
- You set a date on the calendar for next year (I don't know, maybe 2/17/2025?).
- Put it on your calendar (in sharpie) tell everyone you're leaving
- Make whatever plans/preparations/reservations are needed.
- You spend the next year wrapping up the business(es) and rent the house, you purge belongings and/or move them into a storage facility - and
- on that day you walk away and travel for one entire year.

....side note here. Pause for just a moment - to truly check in with yourself and see how even the idea of that made you feel inside.... a little bit of terror, or was that excitement? Were those butterflies and giddiness looking to escape? Let those voices talk a bit more rather than trying to quite them - they might just have some amazing ideas!

At the the end of that year (or more likely several points along the way) you check in with yourself and you:
- Ask yourself how happy you are
- Check in on the accounts (occasionally, and less often month by month)
- Ask yourself if you miss working/projects or if there's a trip you really want to take next.
- Did you spend more or less $ than you thought in a year away from the jobs?
- Did you enjoy it more or less than you expected?
- Is the mortgage sufficiently being paid by someone else while you're away?

Here's the beauty... after that... YOU then get to decide. All over again.

Maybe you go back and work/earn for another year or two.
Seriously... that life that you left behind is known and easy.
You've done that your entire life and I assure you - you CAN ALWAYS GO BACK!

But maybe, like us... you don't.
Maybe you realize like so many others out here traveling the world - that after tasting the other side for a year the last thing you want is to go back.
So you look at those same numbers/spreadsheets you know so well from a different perspective.

One that's about how to prolong WHILE living life. Whether you WANT to take projects because you actually enjoyed them rather than because you need the money, etc. What if like many, you learned that you actually traveled all year for less than you thought (or even less than you spent while working the year before)?

Right now the simply fact is you're trying to plan/guess about (literally) your entire life - based on only having one side of the truth/experience. Go see the other side and make decisions with all the facts (or at least a LOT MORE of them).

Go take a gap year for yourself.
Sure, Europe would have suggested doing it between high school and college but how much more will you enjoy it now!!?
Go see the other side and then decide what to do the following year.
Then rinse and repeat the more you learn.

Oh... and I mean this next bit in all seriousness.
We spend a LOT of time talking to others who are looking to make great (but scary) change in their life. IF we can help in any way please don't hesitate to reach out.
I know its scary... but trust us, its worth it! YOU GOT THIS!
__________________
RE at 35 (mostly accidentally and without a plan) and still figuring it all out after 12years of full time travel/adventure!

Enjoy the Journey!!
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