A sign? Way or No Way?

[Telly]

Back in the '90's working at megacorp, I was returning from lunch one day. When I got closer to the building, I saw a big ugly black bird standing squarely on the center of a car's roof. I thought it odd, as though the birds hung around the parking lots some of the seasons, I never saw one on a car before. I recognized the car, it belonged to a marketing director. I kidded myself "well, that's a bad sign!"
Later that afternoon, he got the sack (the director, not the bird!)

I then wondered how I could attract those birds onto a few other car's roofs.

Okay, it's not the same as someone dying, but still...wooo OOOOO ooooo OOOOO.

 

[KM]

That's a beautiful story about the most painful of events, SecondCor. Thank you for sharing it. Who's to say what's "real" in terms of personal moments like these? There are no experts in matters of the heart and faith.

I second all of the above, SecondCor. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Avalon]

I second all of the above, SecondCor. Thanks for sharing.

+ 1. Thank you sent.

 

[dex]

These sorts of things happen all the time, but they are only seen as significant or coincidental if we experience them close in time to an especially meaningful event such as the death of a loved one.

Humans are pattern-seeking, story-telling creatures who are predisposed to look for meaning and explanations for the natural events we experience. That's pretty much it, IMHO.

Agreed.

Many of these posts make me feel sad. They show how fragile our "civilized" society really is at its heart.

YouTube - The Monsters Are Due On Maple Street 1/3

A good site
http://www.csicop.org/

Read this magazine at your library.
Skeptic » Home » The Skeptics Society & Skeptic magazine

 

[Purron]

In the summer of 1997 my then wife was pregnant with our second child, a son. While on a family retreat in a nearby town, we went for a walk and chose his first name: Elijah.

As it turned out, Elijah died in utero about a month later and about a month before he was to have been born. We chose a plot in a cemetery in our hometown. His mother wanted to honor him by having a tree planted near his grave.

Unfortunately, the ideal location for this tree -- a few yards away -- was already occupied by a large rangy pine tree perhaps 15 feet tall. This large rangy pine stood within a yard of another very large pine tree. His mother lamented that his tree would end up planted in some other section of the cemetery.

We went to select and purchase the tree at a nearby nursery, and arranged to have it delivered to the cemetery, a process that for some reason or another would take a few days. At this point we still didn't know where we were going to have the tree planted.

In the meantime, we had the graveside service, which was videotaped, showing his mother and I, and our family and friends, with the two large pine trees in the background.

A day or two later, when the tree was to be delivered, his mother called the cemetery to arrange for its arrival, again lamenting that the spot she really wanted for the tree was already occupied.

At which point the cemetery employee informed her that the night before, there had been a tremendous windstorm that had swept through the cemetery, and that the large rangy pine tree had been completely uprooted and had completely disappeared. The other pine tree, a yard away, remained completely untouched.

The large rangy pine tree left a hole in the ground, which is where Elijah's tree was planted later that same day. We decided to have his grave marker inscribed with 2 Kings 2:11b, which seemed fitting.

2Cor521

Rest in peace sweet Elijah. You were loved.

 

[freebird5825]

I am a very logical person. I usually require proof to believe something, i.e. proof being something visual or audible in the physical real time domain. I am an Engineer.
However, my own experiences (sense of presence) with my Mom's and huband's passing have convinced me that there may be another domain that we living human beings are not fully connected to.
I saw the funny looks that other living people gave me when I described the sensation of my late husband's presence. Even very close friends were skeptical.
I quickly learned to keep these stories to myself. I was fortunate to have 2 professionals (doctor and counselor) to whom I could talk freely about the experiences.
I know what I felt (kiss), I know what I sensed. I am not a person who "wants" to feel these type of things to make me feel better. I just did.
That's good enough for me.

 

[easysurfer]

I have an analytic backround (computers), yet at the same time I have no problem believing that there are things out there which either aren't in the real of our comprehension or that we haven't had the luck/technology etc. to comprehend.

 

[ERD50]

I am a very logical person. I usually require proof to believe something, i.e. proof being something visual or audible in the physical real time domain. I am an Engineer.
However, my own experiences (sense of presence) with my Mom's and huband's passing have convinced me that there may be another domain that we living human beings are not fully connected to. ...

I have an analytic backround (computers), yet at the same time I have no problem believing that there are things out there which either aren't in the real of our comprehension or that we haven't had the luck/technology etc. to comprehend.

There is no inconsistency here. Logically, we cannot prove a negative. So we can't say that there isn't something here, and maybe it is just something we do not (or cannot) understand.

I will still say that many of the reports here are easily explained by selective memory. But that doesn't mean all of them are, and it doesn't rule out a more 'magical' cause. Yet, I wonder why so many of us have never experienced these things?

-ERD50

 

[REWahoo]

We interrupt this "A Sign: Way or No Way" thread with something related, but entirely different: No way! Streets in Texas town baffle visitors

Where should you go when you’ve lost your way? Try Lake Jackson, Texas. One peek at the local map and you'll know you've found your way — and many more.

“We have This Way, That Way, Any Way, Circle Way, Parking Way, Winding Way and we have His Way,..."

“It’s not uncommon to give people directions that include some variation of, ‘Take This Way three blocks and make a left on That Way until you get to Any Way,’ which invariably provokes the confused response, ‘Which way?’ ” Yenne says. “That’s when you have to correct them and say, 'No, that would be the wrong way.’”

The street where the town’s little regional landing strip used to be is now Abner Jackson Parkway in honor of the town’s namesake.

Yenne says he preferred it when the old airport road was Run Way...

 

[rescueme]

Yet, I wonder why so many of us have never experienced these things?

-ERD50

It's like a belief in god or any "higher power". You may or may not accept the precept, but there is no defined "proof", either way, that can be validated by others.

I like the line from "Angels & Demons" where the question of belief in god is asked. The answer (from the academic?):

"My mind tells me I will never understand God. And my heart tells me I am not meant to."

As too, the stories previously told in this thread. Did they really happen, and represent "proof" of an afterlife?

As for me? I have no idea. If you believe, than it is real, regardless of my thoughts, or opinion. I'm not about to say that these occurrences did or did not occur.

In reality, what all that matters (if you believe) is that you do so...

 

[easysurfer]

I think that even as a scientist, one has to leave wiggle room for things not yet understood.

That's why there are variables in math. In astronomy, there are answers and yet probably more theories than known facts. In religion, many do not need proof to have faith.

To say because I can't prove X doesn't exist is not same as saying X exists.
Sometimes saying "I don't know..." is a valid answer.

 

[travelover]

For me, the most valuable part of my education was making me acutely aware of how little I really know for sure.

 

[dex]

If we have an open mind to the spirits from the other side affecting our world maybe the problems in our world are being caused by things we stopped doing. Think about it. Ever since about the time of the French Revolution and its 'enlightened rational thought' followed by the industrial revolution the world has experienced a level of killing, destruction and pain not seen previously.

An what has changed? - Veneration of the dead, separation from nature, learning from the wise ones, gifts to the dead, sacrifices to the dead. If a person has an open mind to the idea that the dead can influence our world that person must keep an open mind that we can influence the actions of the dead in our world. That is what has changed; the living stopped paying attention to the dead.

We should bring back what worked in the past and brought us happiness; such as the things below. Can anyone disprove these things were not responsible for the good world prior to our ending of communication with the dead?
- Human sacrifice so the dead will help us with our entreaties
- Virgin sacrifice for good crops and business
- Eating the body parts of our noble enemies such as the heart for courage
- Burying the dead with things that will make their lives better after death
- Burying the dead with servants
- Bringing back oracles for communication with the dead

It is not inconsistent for an open minded person who sees the actions of the dead in our world to keep an open mind to the idea that we can influence the actions of the dead in our world and their happiness in their world.

 

[bbbamI]

Most of my life (especially lately), I've cherished all the comfort that comes my way. It doesn't have to be explained; as long as I feel it....that's good enough for me.

 

[rmark]

This thread reminds me we need to order the headstone for my wife's grandmothers grave. Her family is negligent about this - 2 years ago we finally got a marker for her great grandfather, who passed away in 1910.

(interesting story - in 1900 he was a deputy sheriff acting as town marshall when he went to arrest an outlaw who was in town, taking the town barber along as his backup. After the resulting shootout, he was shot through the chest, the barber in the knee, one outlaw was wounded and another chased down by the posse the next day. He lived to 1910, but was in poor health with TB plus the wound).

 

[KM]

Agreed.

Many of these posts make me feel sad. They show how fragile our "civilized" society really is at its heart.

Many of these posts make me feel sad too. But for very different reasons....

There is no inconsistency here. Logically, we cannot prove a negative. So we can't say that there isn't something here, and maybe it is just something we do not (or cannot) understand.

I will still say that many of the reports here are easily explained by selective memory. But that doesn't mean all of them are, and it doesn't rule out a more 'magical' cause. Yet, I wonder why so many of us have never experienced these things?

-ERD50

Maybe you have - but have failed to recognize them.

It's like a belief in god or any "higher power". You may or may not accept the precept, but there is no defined "proof", either way, that can be validated by others.

I like the line from "Angels & Demons" where the question of belief in god is asked. The answer (from the academic?):

"My mind tells me I will never understand God. And my heart tells me I am not meant to."

As too, the stories previously told in this thread. Did they really happen, and represent "proof" of an afterlife?

As for me? I have no idea. If you believe, than it is real, regardless of my thoughts, or opinion. I'm not about to say that these occurrences did or did not occur.

In reality, what all that matters (if you believe) is that you do so...

Well said. I never quite understand why some people who "don't believe" feel it is so important to convince others that "do".....that they shouldn't. *shrug*

 

[Martha]

I never quite understand why some people who "don't believe" feel it is so important to convince others that "do".....that they shouldn't. *shrug*

Doesn't seem to happen as often as the reverse.

 

[kumquat]

Doesn't seem to happen as often as the reverse.

Was that written using the 'sarcasm' font?

 

[Martha]

No, I said what I think. I understand these are sensitive and personal issues. Probably both my post and the post I quoted should disappear.

 

[Avalon]

Most of my life (especially lately), I've cherished all the comfort that comes my way. It doesn't have to be explained; as long as I feel it....that's good enough for me.

You've been experiencing tough times in your life lately. The unexpected comfort doesn't require an explanation.

 

[bbbamI]

You've been experiencing tough times in your life lately. The unexpected comfort doesn't require an explanation.

Yes...I'm learning some things come naturally....

 

[Khan]

Now and then I dream of dead relatives or dead cats or previous jobs.

 

[Silver]

I have never had any experience that would remotely allow me to believe in anything other then it's our nature to die, it's sad for those left missing the person, but that's it. I don't believe in any "higher powers", afterlife, souls, .....nothing. I think that I probably would if there were any evidence of it.....but there isn't so I don't.

I do believe in memories....and hold them dear.

 

[WhoDaresWins]

Now and then I dream of dead relatives or dead cats or previous jobs.

Me, too, except substitute dogs for cats. I dream of my parents an awful lot. My older sister (who is still alive and well) figures in frequently as well. My LH, not so much, but only once in a very great while for whatever reason. And my son (also alive and well) never appears in my dreams. Maybe childhood imprints us more strongly than anything else? Who knows.

 

[KM]

No, I said what I think. I understand these are sensitive and personal issues. Probably both my post and the post I quoted should disappear.

My comment was based on personal experience, as I am sure yours was. I am not sure why either should be deleted.

If you feel they should, that's fine - but I have read a lot worst posts in this forum than either of these, so I am a confused why you feel they should be deleted. With that said, to avoid any further issues, I will bow out of the discussion.