Alcoholism

[kimcdougc]

My DF and DB were both alcoholics. My DF got saved (3) years before he died at the age of 54 and quick drinking instantly the day he got saved. My DB was a Vietnam veteran. He volunteered twice to go to Vietnam. I was his rock for 25 years until my DH said I needed to choose between my alcoholic brother or him. I chose my DH of course. DH did that because he could see how my DB behavior was affecting me.

DS was becoming an alcoholic. He lost his job and we let him move in with us. He called from jail and we bailed him out with the statement, everyone is entitled to one big mistake in their life and this is your one time get out of jail free card. He moved in with us and after 1 year of not working etc we gave him (6) months to get his life together then he would have to move out. He was depressed and we offered to pay for him to go see a therapist. He declined because he didn't think he was depressed.

Fast forward to the 6 month period. He moved out on the last day in with a friend who didn't have anything. He got a job and walked to work. We saw our 6'2" tall son go from 195 down to 175 pounds. We were there if he needed help like taking him to buy groceries etc. We did not get involved. It was the hardest thing I have ever personally done.

Little by little he came around. (3) years later, he now has a great stable job and is engaged to a Nurse Practitioner and doing well. He still drinks some but not like he use to.

Wishing you the best in your situation. Realize for your own piece of mind that you can not make him change. It has to be them that make the changes.

Do not ever, ever lose hope.

Praying for him and you.

[Bamaman]

At least your son is not a methhead. Our daughter drags drug dealers and drug addicts into our house--one after another. Then she brought thieves into our lives. And she doesn't drink alcohol or smoke pot. But she also has been in jail too many times for little violations--like failure to give a turn sign and not showing up for court or paying the fine.

Methheads don't think normally, and the stuff makes them mean. They don't admit they have a problem and that the drug fries your brain--and that it's wrong to use. They don't care that we have to raise a daughter. It takes a full year to get the stuff out of their heads, and then the chance of them overcoming their problem is very, very low. Few methheads overcome the problem without intensive therapy--of which they cannot afford. And every methhead requires different therapy techniques--not one for all approaches.

By all means try to sell your son on the evils of alcohol. It does destroy relationships and lives every day. But it's much easier to deal with than many substances.

[MRG]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bamaman At least your son is not a methhead. Our daughter drags drug dealers and drug addicts into our house--one after another. Then she brought thieves into our lives. And she doesn't drink alcohol or smoke pot. But she also has been in jail too many times for little violations--like failure to give a turn sign and not showing up for court or paying the fine. Methheads don't think normally, and the stuff makes them mean. They don't admit they have a problem and that the drug fries your brain--and that it's wrong to use. They don't care that we have to raise a daughter. It takes a full year to get the stuff out of their heads, and then the chance of them overcoming their problem is very, very low. Few methheads overcome the problem without intensive therapy--of which they cannot afford. And every methhead requires different therapy techniques--not one for all approaches. By all means try to sell your son on the evils of alcohol. It does destroy relationships and lives every day. But it's much easier to deal with than many substances.

I'm sorry for what you are going through. I've seen meth up close and the insanity that goes with it. We were in KC in 96, drove through Independence MO daily, "The Meth Capital of the World " according to Rolling Stone magazine.

I watched people p*ss away their lives, families, businesses.... it was truly sad.

People do break free, I saw some miracles. People walking out of hell and coming back to the real world. I sincerly hope you receive a miracle in your life.

[Teacher Terry]

BM, my son also uses meth. He has been in and out of prison for possession. A few years ago he got clean, had a job and lived in a apartment complex for recovery people. It lasted for a year and we were very supportive. Then back to drugs and homeless for past 2 years. At least he never had kids.

[MuirWannabe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bamaman At least your son is not a methhead. Our daughter drags drug dealers and drug addicts into our house--one after another. Then she brought thieves into our lives. And she doesn't drink alcohol or smoke pot. But she also has been in jail too many times for little violations--like failure to give a turn sign and not showing up for court or paying the fine. Methheads don't think normally, and the stuff makes them mean. They don't admit they have a problem and that the drug fries your brain--and that it's wrong to use. They don't care that we have to raise a daughter. It takes a full year to get the stuff out of their heads, and then the chance of them overcoming their problem is very, very low. Few methheads overcome the problem without intensive therapy--of which they cannot afford. And every methhead requires different therapy techniques--not one for all approaches. By all means try to sell your son on the evils of alcohol. It does destroy relationships and lives every day. But it's much easier to deal with than many substances.

Bamaman,
I remember the gist of your story from previous posts. I have nothing to offer you accept my sincere prayers and sympathies. You and your spouse are highly commendable for raising your granddaughter. I wish you peace, hope, perseverance, and blessings in the days ahead. Addiction is heartless.

There are plenty of drugs to make you lose your mind. There are no drugs that can simply bring you to your senses.

[Ed B]

My 29 year old daughter is on meth and from our vantage point, is at rock bottom. I picked her up from a very dangerous situation today after her car was stolen by a friend and she was being hunted by some recent acquaintances she had been staying with.

So much of what has been said in this thread could have been written about our daughter and the situation DW and I find ourselves in. I will be praying for you and following this discussion.

[sheehs1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by samclem Alcoholism is as serious as cancer, heart disease, diabetes, or any other disease/affliction that can cause suffering and death. For a successful outcome, it needs to be addressed with the same tenacity as we give these other diseases. If a person had lung cancer or heart disease and was told he could be symptom free by spending a few hours a week in heartfelt participation in a meeting, by taking an inexpensive drug for a few months, and by making some lifelong changes in how they viewed themselves and how they react to certain circumstances in their lives, and ultimately by just eliminating one type of beverage from their diet, I'm pretty sure most folks would jump at the chance to do these things. The fact that alcoholics find it very hard to do so tells a lot, IMO, about the way society views this disease, about our individual powers of denial, and (mostly) about the grip that alcohol (and other addictive substances) can have on the human mind.

+100. Alcoholism is a disease. For some reason the inherited gene follows the men in my family, even "paternal" male cousins. My mom didn't drink.

My Dad and my brother. My Dad quit drinking during his "career" and then started again. In his 70's, we did interventions, a couple of detox programs but nothing really worked again until he got lung cancer. He had neurological damage from the alcohol, dropped foot, etc. Then he passed at age 82.

My brother started young with both alcohol and drugs. It was a constant source of worry for my parents and us. Many interventions, detox programs and half way houses-all expensive. Yes, he was jailed-actually bailed out one Christmas morning. Yes there were DUI's. Yes there was stealing from my parents. Yes there were local banks that gave him credit cards or loans my parents had to pay off. I guess because the banks knew my family.

Finally, he hit bottom when he lost his license, his freedom and any semblance of life. Nothing worked until he hit absolute rock bottom. He chose to go to NA. He had a wonderful mentor and has been clean now for over 25 years. We are all so proud of him as he goes around the country giving speeches at NA conventions, has his own successful business, got married for the first time about 3 years ago, etc. I go to his "clean birthdays". The most important thing is he is alive. My parents got to see him clean. He put what I think was his 5 or 10 year clean medallion in mom's coffin.

But I will tell you Muir, all of this spanned probably 15 to 20 years before he joined NA, made a life changing commitment and basically made NA his family and worked the program all day every day. As I said, he started young. He had to change his social network, get new friends that didn't drink or do drugs, etc.

Lots of good advice in this thread. My brother will tell you, he will not help anyone that won't help themselves first and make a commitment to NA or AA.

One last comment I didn't see here is that if your son continues to drink, if he is in the throes of any bing, don't let him detox by himself or without medical supervision. I say this not knowing the extent of the alcoholism. With my Dad, if he was any without a drink for too long, we sometimes had to give him alcohol to prevent him from going into the DT's (delirium tremens) which are withdrawals symptoms from alcohol withdrawal. Am hoping your son's alcoholism has not developed to this extent yet.

Lastly, you are doing the rights things with Al-Anon support, being there for him but not allowing him to take advantage. Definitely easier said than done. While my parents did everything they could, enabling him in the process for so very many years towards the end they offered him food and shelter at their house and that was about it.

I am sorry you are having to deal with this. Alcoholism is a horrible disease.

Edit: My thoughts go out to all on this thread dealing with substance abuse and loved ones. Many posts were added that I had not read prior to posting mine.

[Persn]

I have been sober for 22 years, and relied on AA heavily for the first several years. Although I never particularly cared for the religious/“higher power” parts of the program, I did meet very kind, supportive people who helped me a lot, particularly early in sobriety.

Some of the recommendations here are very good, and all are well-meaning. With that in mind, here’s my two cents:

90 meetings in 90 days is great, but no real magic. For AA to “sink in” you sometimes have to hear the points repeatedly, but by far the most impactful experience is when you hear someone speak of their experience, and something clicks; maybe you make a friend, maybe you just decide that this particular meeting isn’t so bad after all, maybe you just go home laughing and it occurs to you that your life just might not be over because you really are an alcoholic.

Anti-depressants/anti-anxiety drugs are often very helpful. For me Prozac was a wonder drug, though I didn’t take it until about three years after getting sober. If a drug isn’t doing what it is supposed to do, go back to the doctor and ask for something else. SSRI’s are a pretty safe class of drugs.

I would not recommend antabuse. My sister took it many years ago and it helped her, but IMO The consequences of a relapse while on the drug are too severe to make it worth the risk.

Every alcoholic has to hit bottom but it need not always be a low bottom. I never had a problem at work and never got a DUI, but I knew I was an alcoholic because of other problems. Yet I did not want to quit drinking because I was scared to death that I would have to quit forever, and I really couldn’t face that. At one of my first AA meetings I was introduced to the concept of “one day at a time.” I didn’t have to quit forever; I could choose just not to drink today. That’s why AA members often measure sobriety in days, not years.

Ergo, perhaps you could convince your son to try a period of temporary sobriety. If he will have to go to court for the DUI he can genuinely impress the judge by showing that he has gone to AA meetings - every meeting has a secretary who can sign a piece of paper to verify your son’s attendance at the meeting. If he collects a number of signatures, and particularly if he can say that he has not had a drink in x number of days, he may be able to lessen the penalty.

One of the hardest things about your son’s situation is his youth. I didn’t quit drinking until I was 40, but I was a problem drinker from my first drink. If I had quit when I was 23 I could have spared myself a lot of suffering, but in general I have zero regrets. At the same time, I am grateful that I never had a car accident that hurt or killed someone (some of the very saddest stories in AA are from those who did have that fate) and that my family always stayed very supportive despite some fairly irresponsible behavior on my part.

Most of the sober people I know never went through a formal rehab program.

In short, you can’t control your son but you can talk to him and encourage him. Showing love is not enabling. I wish for the very best for both you and your son.

[spirit]

First of all, I am so sorry that your son has fallen into the disease of alcoholism. I first went to Alanon because my husband, who I love very much, became an alcoholic late in life.

I could not believe it. Alcohol was in our lives but never to a great deal. I myself did not really drink much...I would have a glass of wine with a meal or when out with friends but then drink coffee.

I almost fell over when my husband admitted to having a problem with alcohol. I had noticed the depression but never would have believed he had a drinking problem.

Well, I watched him go through a terrible time quitting the booze and he was sober for about 8 years. Then he started drinking again and my life really fell apart. But a good friend suggested I go to an Alanon meeting.

I can honestly say that organization saved my sanity and marriage. I am not saying that Alanon will save your son. That is really up to him. He has help if he wants it but it will probably not be you. I learned that I have NO control over his drinking...not one bit. But he can find help in AA. Just not drinking is not enough....he should learn how to embrace life again without alcohol and he can learn that in the rooms.

But the most important thing I learned was that my love and worry about the alcoholic made me very ill myself. I was driving myself guilty with worry and misplaced love. I learned how not to enable, I learned how to look after myself, and I learned that I was not alone.

Please go to an Alanon meeting. If one does not work for you, go to another...they are all run basically the same but have slightly different feelings depending on the members. The one I belonged to had many people my age and I felt comfortable there.

That was about 10 years ago and although my husband found recovery along with sobriety...and yes there is a difference...that is why his first attempt was not successful...I still go to meetings. I go to help keep the doors open. Each week we have at least one newcomer...alcoholism is a very large problem and I want to make sure the door is open to anyone looking for help.

Please go...it would be one of the greatest gifts you could give yourself.

[ohyes]

Hey Muir,

If you might be interested in "talking" to other parents in similar situations, you may want to visit Conduct Disorders/Parent Emeritus.

Frequenting this site helped me tremendously during the depths of despair, and still.

Best wishes; I am thinking about you this evening.

[jimandthom]

From personal/past experience, these are my 2 cents, for whatever they are worth.

Alcohol abuse/addiction is the visible symptom. At his young age, you mention anxiety issues, being a loner etc --that should be the issue to understand.

I will also say that religion, not God, was very much near or at the center of issues. I recalled the songs in Sunday school --- "Jesus loves the little children" etc. Yet religious doctrine would say that I was going to go to hell because of "deviant" thoughts. Try being 10 years old and have that go through your mind.

He has a inner conflict with something that does not square up with what he believes the world says or believes he was taught.

Your screen name says "MuirWannabe." I'm a fan of Aldo Leopold myself.

What would Muir say?

[MuirWannabe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimandthom From personal/past experience, these are my 2 cents, for whatever they are worth. Alcohol abuse/addiction is the visible symptom. At his young age, you mention anxiety issues, being a loner etc --that should be the issue to understand. I will also say that religion, not God, was very much near or at the center of issues. I recalled the songs in Sunday school --- "Jesus loves the little children" etc. Yet religious doctrine would say that I was going to go to hell because of "deviant" thoughts. Try being 10 years old and have that go through your mind. He has a inner conflict with something that does not square up with what he believes the world says or believes he was taught. Your screen name says "MuirWannabe." I'm a fan of Aldo Leopold myself. What would Muir say?

The alcoholism and social anxiety certainly interact to make him who he is. The social anxiety arose out of significant bullying in high school. And God may have knit him somewhat that way anyway.

I do not believe there are any hidden inner conflicts beyond the addiction and anxiety behavior. He is not struggling with his faith. He simply does not consider it at all.

What would John Muir say? I don’t know. He was certainly a faith oriented man. Perhaps the following quote of his.
“Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul alike.”

Thanks for your thoughts.

[socca]

My uncle gave me a glass of rural Missouri unpasteurized, unfiltered apple cider when I was a kid, and I was instantly hooked. Maybe it was the alcohol content, maybe not. In any case, I haven't had a finer beverage since (and that was 50 years ago ).

I've always been a teetotaler. Alcohol is a known neurotoxin, and I need every last neuron I can get to help with my intellectually-demanding recreational activities. My sympathy to those folks struggling with alcohol addiction - sounds nasty.

[slowsaver]

Having attended Alanon for years, I have a warm spot in my heart for AA; however, it's worth pointing out that AA only works for somewhere between 5-10% of people who go. (You learn not to get your hopes-up in Alanon.)

I heard a very good/interesting radio story about how European countries treat alcoholism. Apparently, they prescribe drugs that can block cravings and 'reward' mechanisms for alcohol use. It basically takes most of the joy out of drinking. It is very, very effective. Much better success rate than AA's 5-10%.

I think one of those drugs is called Vivitrol. You might want to consider it. It isn't widely prescribed in the U.S., partly because our culture views alcoholics as people with character flaws, and AA is the only way to treat character flaws, I guess. Personally, I think people should go with what works... or at least consider it.

[ExFlyBoy5]

I am so sorry for the OP's situation and others here that have shared their stories. Alcoholism "runs" in my family and I have been keenly aware of that and made my choices accordingly.

Just this week, an aunt of mine was hospitalized with a plethora of conditions related to her smoking and alcohol consumption. Last I heard, they were getting ready to shock her to get her heart back in rhythm. Her ex-husband was a terrible drunk and was almost shot by my Dad years ago when he came busting through the door late on night after drinking for 3 days straight.

It's all a very bad deal, but ultimately I think it's up to the alcoholic to make the decision to stop what they are doing. Until that happens, there isn't a whole lot that you can do about it.

[SimpleMom]

A friend gave me a book "One Day at a Time in Al-Anon" which really helped me late at night when I couldn't sleep, worried about our 22 year old son's drinking and DUI. Helps to understand that you cannot control their drinking and that getting angry at them only makes them and you feel worse. Force never works. From page 196 in that book: "I suggest you stop taking action. The only force that can change the alcoholic's pattern is the pressure that builds up inside him when the family refuses to react any longer. When he can't count on your helping him, when you won't assuage his guilt by fighting with him, and you refuse to get him out of trouble then he'll be compelled to face up to things. In other words, try inaction instead of constantly figuring out something to do about him."


I later went to one Al-Anon meeting with a friend whose son was in trouble but didn't really click with the style of the meeting. I liked the part after the formal meeting when everyone could just chat and share more easily. Bought a second book there, "Courage to Change" but didn't go to another meeting. I highly recommend the books as a way to get unstuck from feeling overwhelmed, especially at 3am... [The books are available at meetings and also online at Barnes and Noble.] Take care.

[gooddog]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuirWannabe Does anyone have any advice or other ideas/experiences that might be helpful in this situation?

As cold as this may sound, make sure none of your assets are tied to him in any way - protect yourself. The vast majority of substance abusers (and that does include alcohol) can't be convinced to change their ways. Instead, they have to hit a place where they recognize the mess they are in. The most senseless crime there is is killing someone while drunk. Hope it works out for you, but it usually doesn't.

[WFL]

Here's a program with for addicts with a family support component, free and online. It works alone or alongside other programs, such as AA.

https://www.smartrecovery.org/

There's also a book you may find helpful:
Beyond Addiction: How Science and Kindness Help People Change


It is not very well known, but there is some research to back up their approach.

Best wishes to you and your family.

[rando348]

There's a place in Seattle called Schick Shadel https://www.schickshadel.com/

They do aversion therapy (google it) and counseling. Its an alternative that you can look into. Insurance may cover it but if not it'll be 20K for 10 days. Being from Seattle I know people who have gone and had success. I hear they have over 50% success where other rehab places have less than 10% and even AA has a very low success rate even though its the most popular.

I heard Schick was opening up other clinics in other states but you'll have to investigate.

You can PM me if you want and I can tell you what else I know about it. Good luck my friend!

[isisdave]

Been there, done that, with our son, including the DWI. He's 27 now and 4 years sober in a month or so.

In California, a first DUI will cost about $10,000. His was more as he already had too many points from speeding tickets, and this tossed him into the "negligent driver" category, which cost an extra bundle to minimize. He got a $1750 fine (suspended), and several weeks of house arrest. AA was required, as well as alcohol education classes. Since then, they've added the requirement for an in-car breath analyzer. All expensive. There's a six-month license suspension. I think this is not universally fair, as parents will often be called upon to be the driver. Ten-year probation, where ANY percentage of alcohol will be another DUI. Wretched expensive car insurance for a while, and if he's on yours they may exclude him at renewal. Your state may vary, but probably not by much.

Although you can't make him want to recover, if he's on your insurance until 26 you might as well make a try at a recovery/rehab program now if he's willing. My problem with AA is that the clientele is often NOT what he needs to be friends with, yet that is the friend pool that's going to be open to him. Push him to get a job -- not fast food, but something like Home Depot. Our son resisted this for a while (also insecure and socially shy), and was amazed at how much he liked it when he tried it. In three weeks he was running the paint department un-monitored.

This is hard: don't enable him. After discussing it with spouse, make it clear that you won't be bailing him out again, so he'd better have some friends. You may need to amend your own drinking habits. We never drank much, but we removed the alcohol from the house when we were on vacation without him, and we didn't drink when he was present. It seemed respectful not to expect him to look at it.

Consider Al-Anon to enhance your understanding, get practical tips, and to be grateful for the fact, which you will quickly learn, that things could be a LOT worse. Good luck.