An OLd Liberal " Gets It"

[samclem]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cut-Throat If the current admin can find $300 Billion and cut taxes, when it's already up to it's eyeballs in debt, it should be no problem to fund necessary health care if you can fund an unnecessary war.

Amazing how everything is linked to the war. Health care, public funding of elections, immigration reform, hairstyles--sooner or later, there it is. Iraq, like Kevin Bacon, is related to everything by less than 5 degrees of separation.

[razztazz]

Quote:

Amazing how everything is linked to the war. Health care, public funding of elections, immigration reform, hairstyles--sooner or later, there it is. Iraq, like Kevin Bacon, is related to everything by less than 5 degrees of separation

Hey if it's OK for Administration supporters to tie every f'ing thing including the "NEED" for tax cuts to the war and protecting (rich) Americans, then why on earth would you find it uncomfortable if someone else does the same thing?

No need to adjust your microchip. Just ask "How High?" when they say "Jump".

[saluki9]

Quote:

Originally Posted by razztazz Hey if it's OK for Administration supporters to tie every f'ing thing including the "NEED" for tax cuts to the war and protecting (rich) Americans, then why on earth would you find it uncomfortable if someone else does the same thing? No need to adjust your microchip. Just ask "How High?" when they say "Jump".

It's really funny, I didn't notice until about a week ago all of the conservative hating liberals here. I would have guessed (based on my professional observations) that most people who accumulate enough assets to retire early would have to be conservative in general but I was wrong. Either that or it's "I have mine, now you're screwed mentality" a.k.a Cadillac liberals.

Now as for the topic at hand. Do you think that national healthcare would have

1. Have customer service like the IRS
2. Fiscal restraint like the defense dept
3. Operational efficiency like FEMA

I'd vote for all three.

[jeff2006]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saluki9 Now as for the topic at hand.* Do you think that national healthcare would have 1. Have customer service like the IRS 2. Fiscal restraint like the defense dept 3. Operational efficiency like FEMA I'd vote for all three.*

Me too. To me they sound like an improvement over the current system of American healthcare.

[HFWR]

I thought he WAS talking about the current system... :P

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saluki9 Now as for the topic at hand. Do you think that national healthcare would have 1. Have customer service like the IRS 2. Fiscal restraint like the defense dept 3. Operational efficiency like FEMA

Sorry -- you're describing the current system, right?

Given a grain of truth to that, I'd take your description (little different from now for many), in return for guaranteed universal coverage, no worries about COBRA, policy denials for preexisting conditions, availability of coverage in the pre-medicare years, community pricing, etc.

Get that in place and we can start working on the customer service part.

[saluki9]

Wow, I must be the only person in the US who is happy with their health care.

Sure it's not cheap, but I've had wonderful care in the 4 hospitals I've been to for service along with my friendly internist.

Heck, I even like my insurance company.

[donheff]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saluki9 It's really funny, I didn't notice until about a week ago all of the conservative hating liberals here. I would have guessed (based on my professional observations) that most people who accumulate enough assets to retire early would have to be conservative in general but I was wrong. Either that or it's "I have mine, now you're screwed mentality" a.k.a Cadillac liberals.

We don't hate conservatives. We just don't understand why they think they are better off struggling to make a paycheck with little or no health benefits, Social Security in the gunsights, and the Administration cutting taxes while pouring billions down the wrong rat holes.

I suspect if you were to carefully check, you would find that a disproportionate percentage of liberals are in the upper income ranges. We advocate changes that would COST US MORE through higher taxes. We don't need the changes to make it ourselves, we just want to leave a decent country to our kids. How is that an "I've got mine, now you're screwed mentality?"

[bpp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saluki9 Now as for the topic at hand. Do you think that national healthcare would have 1. Have customer service like the IRS 2. Fiscal restraint like the defense dept 3. Operational efficiency like FEMA I'd vote for all three.

Oh for crying out loud, some countries have national healthcare that works just fine. Quit conjuring boogiemen and find some other reason to like or dislike the idea.

[saluki9]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bpp Oh for crying out loud, some countries have national healthcare that works just fine. Quit conjuring boogiemen and find some other reason to like or dislike the idea.

Name them.

I think I've found one person from Canada who liked their healthcare system. The rest of them I've met all come to the US and pay cash when they come down with anything more serious than a cold. The same can be said for the British system. My wife has had some health problems in the past. When discussing her issues with a woman from the UK with the same problem she indicated how she had to wait weeks for a doctors appt and wasn't able to get the medication that finally cured my wife because it was considered an off label use and was not allowed under their health system.

[saluki9]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donheff We don't hate conservatives. We just don't understand why they think they are better off struggling to make a paycheck with little or no health benefits, Social Security in the gunsights, and the Administration cutting taxes while pouring billions down the wrong rat holes. I suspect if you were to carefully check, you would find that a disproportionate percentage of liberals are in the upper income ranges. We advocate changes that would COST US MORE through higher taxes. We don't need the changes to make it ourselves, we just want to leave a decent country to our kids. How is that an "I've got mine, now you're screwed mentality?"

I will be the first to admit that there are plenty of republicans who aren't conservatives by any means and are spending like drunken sailors. That being said, I think a lot of it has to do with payback (allocating pork) for all the times many of these districts got screwed while the democrats were running the show.

As for my opinion that many retirees are republicans, that was based on my unscientific study of the accounts I work on (I'm a PM) Most of our clients write some pretty hefty checks each year to Republican causes. In the 6 years I've been doing this I can recall only one to the DNC.

[lets-retire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saluki9 Wow, I must be the only person in the US who is happy with their health care. Sure it's not cheap, but I've had wonderful care in the 4 hospitals I've been to for service along with my friendly internist.* * Heck, I even like my insurance company.* *

I agree. *Once I got out of the government provided health care, I've had no complainants. *

As far as the Demo vs. Reps being wealthy. *During the last election I noticed most of the Kerry signs were in the yards or on the cars people who are typically the trouble makers in my jurisdiction living in the poorer areas of the city. *The Bush signs were normally seen in the better off areas in yards of those I've never had contact with. *I'm sure this is not true for the entire country, but it is in my neck of the woods. *I think the wealthy Demos are felling guilty for doing well financially.

[Martha]

George McGovern's article makes a good point about the unfortunate adversarial relationship between unions and business. Business isn't necessarily the bad guy.

So, instead of having businesses bear the burden of health care costs, let us spread it around to everyone and have a national health care system.* Employment might even go up.* Business owners wouldn't have to try to minimize benefit costs by cutting people to part time or making people "independent contractors." Small business could flourish and attract good employees.* *I think national healthcare is good for business.* And I am hearing this from more and more business owners.*

I find it interesting that Walmart is lobbying for increases in minimum wage.* I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up supporting a national healthcare.

The "I've got yours, now you are screwed" mentality seems to fit those who are happy with their health care and won't face the fact, or don't care, that there are millions in this country shut out of the system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lets-retire I think the wealthy Demos are felling guilty for doing well financially.

Maybe a little guilt is good for the soul.

[razztazz]

Quote:

I agree. *Once I got out of the government provided health care, I've had no complainants. *

I didn't like Gov provided health care either. But now that I have a government provided medical insurance *policy it's great. Free run of the medical industry just like any private insurance. None of that Gov "company store" BS and I don't have to worry about going broke or getting dropped.

It's like living in America and winning the health care lottery or being in the top 1/10 of 1%! Well almost. I did have to work for it unlike the real Top 1/10 of 1% or winning a regular lottery.

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martha The "I've got yours, now you are screwed" mentality seems to fit those who are happy with their health care and won't face the fact, or don't care, that there are millions in this country shut out of the system.

New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy:

"Let them eat cake"
*
A saying that shows insensitivity to or incomprehension of the realities of life for the unfortunate. Rousseau, in his Confessions, tells of a great princess who, on being informed that the country people had no bread, replied, “Let them eat cake.” This statement is often, and incorrectly, attributed to Marie Antoinette.

Don't think anyone here would knowingly take that stance, but we need to be careful that as a group of generally prosperous types we don't forget that there are 40 million who don't have insurance. And even here, more than a few have been delayed or derailed by inability to obtain or pay for health insurance.

There seems to be a growing constituency who are realizing that if nothing else, it makes bad economic policy.

[lets-retire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by razztazz I didn't like Gov provided health care either. But now that I have a government provided medical insurance *policy it's great. Free run of the medical industry just like any private insurance. None of that Gov "company store" BS and I don't have to worry about going broke or getting dropped. It's like living in America and winning the health care lottery or being in the top 1/10 of 1%!* Well almost. I did have to work for it unlike the real Top 1/10 of 1% or winning a regular lottery.

What do you think you'll receive with gov't paid "all medical all the time"? *I'll clue you in a little: *Not what you now have.

[Leonidas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saluki9 Wow, I must be the only person in the US who is happy with their health care. Sure it's not cheap, but I've had wonderful care in the 4 hospitals I've been to for service along with my friendly internist. Heck, I even like my insurance company.

2003 ABCNEWS/Washington Post Poll found:

Among insured Americans, "...82 percent rate their health coverage positively. Among insured people who've experienced a serious or chronic illness or injury in their family in the last year, an enormous 91 percent are satisfied with their care, and 86 percent are satisfied with their coverage."

In the same poll, 62% of Americans were in favor of "universal healthcare", but those numbers dropped to 39% if the phrase "with waiting lists for non-emergency treatment" was added, and dropped to 35% if the phrase "with limited choice of doctors" was added.

Sounds like people want universal healthcare, but they want to pick their doctors and don't want to wait for treatment.

Spoke with a friend in Montreal last night and mentioned that I was taking the Princess for a CT scan this morning - I bitched because we had to wait a week. He laughed and told me I had nothing to complain about. The wait times for surgeries and diagnostic tests are usually six months. Anything that requires a specialist, surgery or testing equipment takes forever because the resources are so limited there. If you need to go to the doctor for something minor you're okay, and if you have to go to the ER for something you're probably ok as well. But anything in between (like cancer, hip-replacements, etc.) and you're stuck waiting getting worse or suffering in pain. That's why he took his mother to Vermont for a CT scan last year when she had a persistent abdominal pain.

His view was that the Canadian system worked well up until the last ten - fifteen years and since then it has become a disaster for anybody who is sick. He said the waits in Montreal are even worse if you don't speak French (he's a Francophone), apparently they have several "English speaking" hospitals there. He also said that the provincial government made a promise of a maximum six-month wait for healthcare, but now that they can't pull if off they are considering contracting to a private hospital for outpatient surgeries. He said that people who have been waiting for surgery for almost a year could be seen in just a few weeks. His wife's dad needs cataract surgery and has been on the waiting list for nine months.

My friend didn't sound like he was all that pleased with Canadian healthcare.

[MasterBlaster]

Unions and national health care...

German Doctors go on strike

http://www.boston.com/news/world/eur...rike_over_pay/

[HFWR]

Don't want gumment healthcare system, but might be satisfied with a universal insurance system.

[razztazz]

Quote:

Don't want gumment healthcare system, but might be satisfied with a universal insurance system.

It's a a shame anybody even needs to bring this up. Where is this wonderful "system" they keep talking about behind the green door?

Where are the free market billionairs that make all things possible and affordable? (as long as an appropriate number to keep profits up are just bulldozed into a ditch, I suppose)