Another challenge for electric vehicles

[NW-Bound]

Not everyone lives in a metropolis...I live in the middle of nowhere, in one of those "flyover states", where only an occasional farm truck passes the house, and i'm 10 miles from a town with a traffic light. THIS is the reason I don't have a EV.

I was discussing people who gerntz talked about not being able to manage their finance to avoid living paycheck to paycheck. They would not be able to manage the variability of the range of an EV. I was suggesting that they may not be able to keep their ICE cars from running dry either.

PS. Apart from that, an EV is not the practical choice for people who live in rural areas. I would not own one if I live outside of town,

 

[Music Lover]

They would not be able to manage the variability of the range of an EV.

Even among those who can manage the range of an EV, there are many who just don't want the hassle or inconvenience.

 

[jimbee]

Interesting question. What prompted me to start this thread was a conversation I had with my brother about EVs. He lives in the Chicago area and drives a considerable amount for his work, which entails many customer visits. Last week it reached -25F.

The temperature doesn't need to fall to that level often to be a problem. Once might be enough.

I think there is great future in EV and hope to own one, but do think the purchase decision needs more thought and is not simply a matter of cost of energy.

The temperature got to -25F at my house last week too, but I wouldn't call it normal. At least not yet. The last time I saw temperatures like that was decades ago.

 

[NW-Bound]

Even among those who can manage the range of an EV, there are many who just don't want the hassle or inconvenience.

Plus the higher initial cost for doing it.

Eventually, we may not have a choice, but until then...

PS. The non-choice is likely to happen after I am dead.

PPS. I suspect that by that time, the world is not the same as it is now, with fossil fuel mostly gone. Heck, perhaps even EVs will be a luxury reserved for government officials or VIPs. The masses will just huddle in tiny homes to stay warm, as there is nothing left to burn for heat.

 

[ckelly78z]

I'm also a long time member of a Porsche forum, so......no EV for me !

 

[manerac]

60% or 70%? What are you talking about and what are you basing this on? You must be making this up off the top of your head?

Midwesterners know that a car starting battery that works fine at 0degF often is unable to turn the engine over after a -20degF soak. I haven't been able to locate studies showing EV battery capacity down to -20degF, and I'm inclined to side with the OP until I see actual data.

 

[eroscott]

Midwesterners know that a car starting battery that works fine at 0degF often is unable to turn the engine over after a -20degF soak. I haven't been able to locate studies showing EV battery capacity down to -20degF, and I'm inclined to side with the OP until I see actual data.

I was born and raised in one of the Canadian bordering states fairly close to the border. I'm familiar with cold and plugging my car in during my early years. Of course, it wasn't electric but had a head bolt heater and a little car heater with a fan to help keep my windows clear. Even with that my v8 sometimes had a hard time turning over. Heck I recall once I had to get it towed and have the engine oil changed because my dad sad there was likely too much gas in the oil (flooded and running down piston cycl walls!!

There were and are a lot of 120v plugs in parking spots in the north and Canada AFAIK. Would be good to keep electric cars plugged in.

z) Our electric cars and often moderns cars have seat heaters and even steering wheel heaters (2 of our 3 cars do). This is very helpful to keep people feeling warmer and running just a little lower temp HVAC.

a) Also keep in mind that when driving electric cars the use of the batteries cause them to warm up because of chemical reaction. So 'natural' warming which in turn raises the capacity.

b) Most sophisticated electric cars also have battery warmers in them ... which uses electricity but that is way offset by the fact warming the batteries allows more energy to come out of them!

Midwesterners know that a car starting battery that works fine at 0degF often is unable to turn the engine over after a -20degF soak.

One thing that is SUPER NICE about our Volts (and other PHEVs I think) is that they don't even have a starter to start the gas engine. The 12 volt battery is simply used to turn on the computer AND open the contact to that high voltage (350+ volt) battery. The generator that is connected to the gas engine is used as a 50+ HP motor to turn over the gas engine to start it. This takes just a second or two. In our recent -25F weather our 2 Volts started up like nobodies business when parked all day.

My Tesla ran fine and I have over 200 mile range even at 70% charge. I had a few long drives and paid little attention to the range as I had plenty. NOTE that most electric cars TRACK closely the watts/mile being used and would warn EARLY if you were not going to make your destination plugged in the NAV.

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These car companies that sell internationally and into Canada do a lot of weather testing. GM used cold storage boxes to test in Kapuskasing, Ontario, Canada. Tesla does testing south of Fairbanks, Alaska. Lot of Teslas are sold in Norway too. A bunch of Tesla Model 3s were shipped to Canada just a couple months back.

 

[eroscott]

OFF TOPIC!!

I'm also a long time member of a Porsche forum, so......no EV for me !

The are creating a lot of buzz in the EV world see: https://www.google.com/search?q=porsche+ev

Plus Tesla Model 3 has a 'track mode' that is available on their performance version. It is raising a lot of eyebrows. See: https://www.tesla.com/blog/how-track-mode-works

 

[travelover]

My brother is an extremely liberal, Methodist pastor (contradiction in terms, I know ?), who believes that his carbon footprint was way too big. He went out and bought a used Nissan Leaf, and was telling me (a car guy) about the extensive planning that he has to make to drive the car in the Winter at any length greater than 40-50 miles. He told me about one time that he was watching his range diminish faster than he thought possible, while going down the highway in a cold, headwind (25 degree day with 25 mph wind). He had to make a side trip to a charging station for a few hours before he could attempt the drive home.

Needless to say, my GT Mustang, or my diesel Ford Excursion doesn't thrill him, and his beliefs.

That's really what it comes down to, isn't it? America is divided into two camps. Anyone driving a hybrid or an electric car has established themselves as a member of one camp.

 

[eroscott]

That's really what it comes down to, isn't it? America is divided into two camps. Anyone driving a hybrid or an electric car has established themselves as a member of one camp.

This is an absurd statement. In various forums and other context I see people in all camps. Tesla owners are an obvious example because there are
a) people that really car about performance and handling only (track mode ref above),
b) some just like simplier/cheaper maint or 1 pedal driving or features like OTA ongoing enh, and
c) others that care about its alternate source of energy and those related items.
There are people like myself who are a blend. Tesla is just an example, pick some of the other car/SUV/pickup company fans (Rivian, Audi, Porche EV, BMW i8/etc, and it goes on).

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

That's really what it comes down to, isn't it? America is divided into two camps. Anyone driving a hybrid or an electric car has established themselves as a member of one camp.

America is divided into two camps, sometimes more than two camps, depending on what is the issue.

I have 2 EV's, but am not in the camp you think I would be in (on this one particular topic) despite my location.

I have them because they are better vehicles.

 

[ocean view]

This whole discussion reminds me of the Downton Abbey episode when they installed a telephone.

https://youtu.be/I4slJoAftGE

I hope that eventually EVs will gain acceptance just as the telephone and electric light have.

 

[ERD50]

You just have to have some basic common sense with this tho. Many cars are >200 mile range now. How far do you drive each day? Does 30 or 40% matter? After all it is just a temporary loss. ...

Since you mentioned "common sense", and since we've now got references to a 60% reduction in range in the temperatures we just experienced here in Illinois, let's apply some "Common sense" to your statements:

So if 40% range loss in cold weather doesn't matter with a 200 mile range EV, why would anyone in a moderate climate need an EV with more than 120 mile range?

A "temporary loss" isn't any comfort at all. Often, in the cold weather we get stuck in traffic. Responsible people with an ICE will make a point of making sure they have a full/near-full tank when a bad storm is predicted, just in case. A road closure or jam can cause you to have to go out of your way, adding many miles/time to your trip. And running the heater is an added strain - and don't tell me about the great efficiency of heated seats - I have heated seats in my car, I love them. They heat up fast to take the chill off. But after that I turn them off or low, as it is uncomfortable to have an overly heated butt. And I run the air heater full blast until I'm warm, and then moderate heat - I want warm air on my body to be comfortable. A warm butt and cold face in freezing air is not comfortable.

That range has to be worst case range, or the EV just is not a replacement for an ICE/hybrid. If I need to purchase an EV with 2x to 3x my expected worse case trip to allow for that trip happening under cold weather, then yes, it really does matter.

And the problem with charging if you need to stop somewhere with only 115V available - in some cases the 115 V won't even provide enough heat to be able to start charging the battery (as pointed out before, you simply cannot charge a below freezing Lion battery, it will be damaged).

... Sounds like nice scare tactics from those industries/investors that would be hurt from EVs

And this sounds like the broken record of reverting to Ad Hominem attacks when the EV fans don't have an actual response to the legitimate question that was posed.

-ERD50

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

This whole discussion reminds me of the Downton Abbey episode when they installed a telephone.

https://youtu.be/I4slJoAftGE

I hope that eventually EVs will gain acceptance just as the telephone and electric light have.

Tesla sold roughly 90,000 cars worldwide in the 4th quarter of 2018.

Sales in Western Europe are just getting started. China is next.

GM ( if their vehicle quality doesn't bother you) will have 20 electrics out in the next 4 years.

A journey requires numerous steps. Transition takes time.

 

[travelover]

This is an absurd statement........

You may disagree with my observation about the trend of this long going conversation here, but your quoted remark is a personal attack.

 

[ERD50]

This whole discussion reminds me of the Downton Abbey episode when they installed a telephone.

https://youtu.be/I4slJoAftGE

I hope that eventually EVs will gain acceptance just as the telephone and electric light have.

Interesting episode. I wonder how much is based on real history and how much was is clever theatrics? I'm sure some it was at least truth-based.

At any rate, I would say that EVs have already gained "acceptance", hundreds of thousands have been sold.

But for them to become common among the lower and middle class, they need to become more practical than the alternatives, just like any new technology. Nothing magical about that.

The alternative for the telephone was the telegraph, telegram, mail, pony express, carrier pigeon. Not hard to see why the acceptance grew at a fast pace.

The alternative for the electric light was kerosene, candles, and the dark. Not hard to see why the acceptance grew at a fast pace.


The alternative for EVs is the ICE/hybrid. Produced at relatively low cost, fueling is available and cheap everywhere (though less convenient than charging at home, but not a deal breaker for most), range is not an issue, ICEs now perform just fine in cold weather (not like the old carb/choke ones), and are almost unbelievably reliable and low maintenance. That's a much tougher hurdle for the EV in the low-mid price range.

EVs will gain greater acceptance if/when they can beat the alternatives in the wider market. Now, a question for you:

Why do you "hope that eventually EVs will gain acceptance"? They will or will not. Why the "hope"? I only hope that I have the best product at the best price - regardless the underlying technology.

-ERD50

 

[Montecfo]

My brother is an extremely liberal, Methodist pastor (contradiction in terms, I know ?), who believes that his carbon footprint was way too big. He went out and bought a used Nissan Leaf, and was telling me (a car guy) about the extensive planning that he has to make to drive the car in the Winter at any length greater than 40-50 miles. He told me about one time that he was watching his range diminish faster than he thought possible, while going down the highway in a cold, headwind (25 degree day with 25 mph wind). He had to make a side trip to a charging station for a few hours before he could attempt the drive home.

Needless to say, my GT Mustang, or my diesel Ford Excursion doesn't thrill him, and his beliefs.

EV's have a shorter driving range. It is just a fact.

That fact is likely to bite even the best intentioned person at some point. Let's say you just got a new job, more pay but commute longer. Oh, crap, got to get a new car or move.

Also, I am always intrigued that the "carbon footprint" crowd apparently does not realize that in this country, electricity is developed mainly using coal, fuel oil, and natural gas. So that is what you are "filling the tank" of your EV with.

Second, your carbon footprint does not matter. India and China are spewing more carbon that you can offset. If you believe man is warming he planet, you are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[aja8888]

Second, your carbon footprint does not matter. India and China are spewing more carbon that you can offset. If you believe man is warming he planet, you are barking up the wrong tree.

Besides don't the "dirty deed" to the atmosphere, Asian countries are filling the Pacific Ocean with scrap plastic and we are the ones banning the use of plastic straws!

I wonder what will become of all the spent lithium batteries from the continued use of EV's?

 

[Music Lover]

America is divided into two camps, sometimes more than two camps, depending on what is the issue.

I have 2 EV's, but am not in the camp you think I would be in (on this one particular topic) despite my location.

I have them because they are better vehicles.

"better" is a matter of perspective. If you have to go more than a certain distance, they are very, very inconvenient. There are also some quality issues that other vehicles don't suffer from.

 

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

In my area, we are seeing restaurants that install charging stations in their parking lots.

You can call ahead when you are in-route and they will have a table waiting for you as you arrive.

Enjoy a meal as you vehicle re-charges.

 

[aja8888]

In my area, we are seeing restaurants that install charging stations in their parking lots.

You can call ahead when you are in-route and they will have a table waiting for you as you arrive.

Enjoy a meal as you vehicle re-charges.

Are they adding the recharge power cost on the meal bill?

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

In my area, we are seeing restaurants that install charging stations in their parking lots.

You can call ahead when you are in-route and they will have a table waiting for you as you arrive.

Enjoy a meal as you vehicle re-charges.

VW is installing them all over the country. People will get used to this new way of living. Some will adjust quicker than others.

I charge while I do errands.

 

[Music Lover]

Are they adding the recharge power cost on the meal bill?

Likely everyone who eats there is paying for it.

 

[MichaelB]

Are they adding the recharge power cost on the meal bill?

Likely everyone who eats there is paying for it.

For sure. Someone has to pay. It’s like the charging stations in the Whole Foods parking lot.

 

[eroscott]

You may disagree with my observation about the trend of this long going conversation here, but your quoted remark is a personal attack.

Sorry but I was referring to the denotation of it being illogical. EV discussion on some forums really shows groups of peoples closed mindedness. Making an equation of one matching very closely to the other. I provided examples of it not matching based on general knowledge of Tesla being performance oriented (not planet-saving, etc angle). HTH explain.