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02-12-2019, 11:17 AM
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#41
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocean view
This whole discussion reminds me of the Downton Abbey episode when they installed a telephone.
https://youtu.be/I4slJoAftGE
I hope that eventually EVs will gain acceptance just as the telephone and electric light have.
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Interesting episode. I wonder how much is based on real history and how much was is clever theatrics? I'm sure some it was at least truth-based.
At any rate, I would say that EVs have already gained "acceptance", hundreds of thousands have been sold.
But for them to become common among the lower and middle class, they need to become more practical than the alternatives, just like any new technology. Nothing magical about that.
The alternative for the telephone was the telegraph, telegram, mail, pony express, carrier pigeon. Not hard to see why the acceptance grew at a fast pace.
The alternative for the electric light was kerosene, candles, and the dark. Not hard to see why the acceptance grew at a fast pace.
The alternative for EVs is the ICE/hybrid. Produced at relatively low cost, fueling is available and cheap everywhere (though less convenient than charging at home, but not a deal breaker for most), range is not an issue, ICEs now perform just fine in cold weather (not like the old carb/choke ones), and are almost unbelievably reliable and low maintenance. That's a much tougher hurdle for the EV in the low-mid price range.
EVs will gain greater acceptance if/when they can beat the alternatives in the wider market. Now, a question for you:
Why do you " hope that eventually EVs will gain acceptance"? They will or will not. Why the "hope"? I only hope that I have the best product at the best price - regardless the underlying technology.
-ERD50
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02-12-2019, 11:34 AM
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#42
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckelly78z
My brother is an extremely liberal, Methodist pastor (contradiction in terms, I know ?), who believes that his carbon footprint was way too big. He went out and bought a used Nissan Leaf, and was telling me (a car guy) about the extensive planning that he has to make to drive the car in the Winter at any length greater than 40-50 miles. He told me about one time that he was watching his range diminish faster than he thought possible, while going down the highway in a cold, headwind (25 degree day with 25 mph wind). He had to make a side trip to a charging station for a few hours before he could attempt the drive home.
Needless to say, my GT Mustang, or my diesel Ford Excursion doesn't thrill him, and his beliefs.
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EV's have a shorter driving range. It is just a fact.
That fact is likely to bite even the best intentioned person at some point. Let's say you just got a new job, more pay but commute longer. Oh, crap, got to get a new car or move.
Also, I am always intrigued that the "carbon footprint" crowd apparently does not realize that in this country, electricity is developed mainly using coal, fuel oil, and natural gas. So that is what you are "filling the tank" of your EV with.
Second, your carbon footprint does not matter. India and China are spewing more carbon that you can offset. If you believe man is warming he planet, you are barking up the wrong tree.
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02-12-2019, 11:48 AM
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#43
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Conroe, Texas
Posts: 18,645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecfo
Second, your carbon footprint does not matter. India and China are spewing more carbon that you can offset. If you believe man is warming he planet, you are barking up the wrong tree.
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Besides don't the "dirty deed" to the atmosphere, Asian countries are filling the Pacific Ocean with scrap plastic and we are the ones banning the use of plastic straws!
I wonder what will become of all the spent lithium batteries from the continued use of EV's?
__________________
*********Go Astros!*********
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02-12-2019, 11:56 AM
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#44
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: the prairies
Posts: 5,027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Tightwad
America is divided into two camps, sometimes more than two camps, depending on what is the issue.
I have 2 EV's, but am not in the camp you think I would be in (on this one particular topic) despite my location.
I have them because they are better vehicles.
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"better" is a matter of perspective. If you have to go more than a certain distance, they are very, very inconvenient. There are also some quality issues that other vehicles don't suffer from.
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02-12-2019, 12:02 PM
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#45
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: An Un-Organized Township of Maine
Posts: 801
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In my area, we are seeing restaurants that install charging stations in their parking lots.
You can call ahead when you are in-route and they will have a table waiting for you as you arrive.
Enjoy a meal as you vehicle re-charges.
__________________
Retired at 42 and I have been enjoying retirement for 18 years [so far].
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02-12-2019, 12:08 PM
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#46
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Conroe, Texas
Posts: 18,645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Offgrid Organic Farmer
In my area, we are seeing restaurants that install charging stations in their parking lots.
You can call ahead when you are in-route and they will have a table waiting for you as you arrive.
Enjoy a meal as you vehicle re-charges.
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Are they adding the recharge power cost on the meal bill ?
__________________
*********Go Astros!*********
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02-12-2019, 12:29 PM
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#47
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Offgrid Organic Farmer
In my area, we are seeing restaurants that install charging stations in their parking lots.
You can call ahead when you are in-route and they will have a table waiting for you as you arrive.
Enjoy a meal as you vehicle re-charges.
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VW is installing them all over the country. People will get used to this new way of living. Some will adjust quicker than others.
I charge while I do errands.
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02-12-2019, 12:44 PM
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#48
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: the prairies
Posts: 5,027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aja8888
Are they adding the recharge power cost on the meal bill ?
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Likely everyone who eats there is paying for it.
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02-12-2019, 12:48 PM
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#49
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aja8888
Are they adding the recharge power cost on the meal bill ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Lover
Likely everyone who eats there is paying for it.
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For sure. Someone has to pay. It’s like the charging stations in the Whole Foods parking lot.
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02-12-2019, 02:33 PM
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#50
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travelover
You may disagree with my observation about the trend of this long going conversation here, but your quoted remark is a personal attack.
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Sorry but I was referring to the denotation of it being illogical. EV discussion on some forums really shows groups of peoples closed mindedness. Making an equation of one matching very closely to the other. I provided examples of it not matching based on general knowledge of Tesla being performance oriented (not planet-saving, etc angle). HTH explain.
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02-12-2019, 02:41 PM
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#51
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecfo
EV's have a shorter driving range. It is just a fact.
That fact is likely to bite even the best intentioned person at some point. Let's say you just got a new job, more pay but commute longer. Oh, crap, got to get a new car or move.
Also, I am always intrigued that the "carbon footprint" crowd apparently does not realize that in this country, electricity is developed mainly using coal, fuel oil, and natural gas. So that is what you are "filling the tank" of your EV with.
Second, your carbon footprint does not matter. India and China are spewing more carbon that you can offset. If you believe man is warming he planet, you are barking up the wrong tree.
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With 200+ mile range vehicles coming out means your longer commutes don't matter. In fact, that was one reason my kid with a long commute has a 200+ mile EV.
Electricity generation various considerably depending on your state!! MORE importantly, it is the one source that is getting CLEANER every year.
IOWA example via: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...our-state.html
ND
OK
VA
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02-12-2019, 03:25 PM
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#52
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Western NC
Posts: 4,610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travelover
That's really what it comes down to, isn't it? America is divided into two camps. Anyone driving a hybrid or an electric car has established themselves as a member of one camp.
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Not at all...choosing a hybrid powertrain over a pure EV gives most of the benefits at a fraction of the cost.
I expect my next vehicle will have a hybrid powertrain for both greatly improved city mpg and as a hedge against rapid increases in the price of gasoline.
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02-12-2019, 03:25 PM
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#53
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Champaign
Posts: 4,689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
Interesting episode. I wonder how much is based on real history and how much was is clever theatrics? I'm sure some it was at least truth-based.
-ERD50
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Here's 4 minutes of reality for you, regarding fun and irritation. Does stray a bit from the engineering aspect of electric cars. But I know you're a patient man with an extraordinary sense of humor.
__________________
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."
Ralph Waldo Emerson
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02-12-2019, 04:02 PM
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#54
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: the prairies
Posts: 5,027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eroscott
With 200+ mile range vehicles coming out means your longer commutes don't matter. In fact, that was one reason my kid has a 200+ mile EV.
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It's not about the commutes...it's about the longer trips. Some people (I am one of them) have no use or interest in a vehicle with a limited range that takes hours to re-fuel.
For me, getting an EV means getting a vehicle that I can't use in many situations without major inconveniences and sacrifices. I have nothing against them, but they are not feasible for my lifestyle. Average range means nothing unless 100% of your trips are average.
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02-12-2019, 04:24 PM
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#55
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Flyover country
Posts: 25,198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Lover
It's not about the commutes...it's about the longer trips. Some people (I am one of them) have no use or interest in a vehicle with a limited range that takes hours to re-fuel.
For me, getting an EV means getting a vehicle that I can't use in many situations without major inconveniences and sacrifices. I have nothing against them, but they are not feasible for my lifestyle. Average range means nothing unless 100% of your trips are average.
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Exactly.
I think some of the more rabid promoters of Teslas tend to live in extremely urban locations like LA or SF, and forget about those of us who routinely drive 100 or 200 miles to get somewhere with no reasonable access to charging when we reach our destination. Or who like to take a driving vacation into the boonies. Sure, we could rent an ICE for those trips, but we don't want to.
__________________
I thought growing old would take longer.
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02-12-2019, 04:47 PM
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#56
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braumeister
Exactly.
I think some of the more rabid promoters of Teslas tend to live in extremely urban locations like LA or SF, and forget about those of us who routinely drive 100 or 200 miles to get somewhere with no reasonable access to charging when we reach our destination. Or who like to take a driving vacation into the boonies. Sure, we could rent an ICE for those trips, but we don't want to.
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FYI, I've traveled thru IN, KY, TN, NC in the past year without any trouble.
And just to keeping it real-world that it is not hours to fill up...
Usually for 25-30 minutes to fill up JUST ENOUGH to get to the next supercharger. This is the key you don't need to stay until 100% full. Just enough to get to your next supercharger plus 10-15% buffer. Eating lunch or dinner ... just charge longer and your next stops are shorter.
My recently travels below and the Tesla Supercharge map with ONLY 100 mile radius on the blue circles. ie. Superchargers are usually 125 miles or less apart. This is only Tesla ones. Many other chargers (highway, destination) etc are coming this year and next. Tesla is adding 100s more too.
Example rough and highlevel planner from Tesla. Note that there are several others online with more details and control. Also the car has a built in one. You just tell the nav where you want to go and it sets up waypoints to the supercharges takes you there. It tells you on your phone or in the car when you can leave to get to the next waypoint/supercharger.
https://www.tesla.com/trips
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Tesla Supercharge map with ONLY 100 mile radius on the blue circles.
Below is only the Tesla charges there are several other companies creating fast DC chargers.
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02-12-2019, 05:05 PM
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#57
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eroscott
FYI, I've traveled thru IN, KY, TN, NC in the past year without any trouble.
And just to keeping it real-world that it is not hours to fill up...
Usually for 25-30 minutes to fill up JUST ENOUGH to get to the next supercharger. This is the key you don't need to stay until 100% full. Just enough to get to your next supercharger plus 10-15% buffer. Eating lunch or dinner ... just charge longer and your next stops are shorter.
My recently travels below and the Tesla Supercharge map with ONLY 100 mile radius on the blue circles. ie. Superchargers are usually 125 miles or less apart. This is only Tesla ones. Many other chargers (highway, destination) etc are coming this year and next. Tesla is adding 100s more too.
Example rough and highlevel planner from Tesla. Note that there are several others online with more details and control. Also the car has a built in one. You just tell the nav where you want to go and it sets up waypoints to the supercharges takes you there. It tells you on your phone or in the car when you can leave to get to the next waypoint/supercharger.
https://www.tesla.com/trips
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Tesla Supercharge map with ONLY 100 mile radius on the blue circles.
Below is only the Tesla charges there are several other companies creating fast DC chargers.
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All of these things are disadvantages of EVs. You say they are not that bad or you can work around them.
Sure but what's the payoff?
Where is the advantage that makes all these disadvantages worthwhile in your opinion?
Curious.
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02-12-2019, 05:15 PM
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#58
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecfo
All of these things are disadvantages of EVs. You say they are not that bad or you can work around them.
Sure but what's the payoff?
Where is the advantage that makes all these disadvantages worthwhile in your opinion?
Curious.
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I was responding to your points that you can't use these cars conveniently in the midwest around KY. It was trivial to do that.
In my various post, I provided a bunch of extra information so other posters/lurkers can see and understand how it works in the reality vs the purport myths that everyone has and propagates. People tend to be close minded about certain topics and don't want to research or test examples.
The EV pros/cons have been discussed numerous times before. I won't list them all.
Here is one...
* 2 of our 3 cars charger overnight while we are sleeping and they do it via 120v garage outlets. The work great for commuting. Charging while sleeping just like charging your phone is trivial. Wake up with a full phone and car.
* 1 of our 3 our cars plugs into an RV plug (NEMA 14-50 / 240v) in our garage. Same as any campground. No special equipment required. I did this at a remoter location in a northern state. Lot of campgrounds
* I charge during the night while our electrical rates are lower (hourly plan). Vehicles wake up and start charging. Done in the morning.
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02-12-2019, 05:16 PM
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#59
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Sacramento area
Posts: 467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckelly78z
My brother is an extremely liberal, Methodist pastor (contradiction in terms, I know ?)
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Actually not a contradiction. The UMC tends to be a very liberal denomination. As a conservative I am well aware of it.
__________________
The worst day retired is STILL better than the best day w*rking!
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02-12-2019, 05:26 PM
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#60
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braumeister
Exactly.
I think some of the more rabid promoters of Teslas tend to live in extremely urban locations like LA or SF, and forget about those of us who routinely drive 100 or 200 miles to get somewhere with no reasonable access to charging when we reach our destination. Or who like to take a driving vacation into the boonies. Sure, we could rent an ICE for those trips, but we don't want to.
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Or you could own 2 cars. One of each.
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