Another challenge for electric vehicles

[eroscott]

EV's have a shorter driving range. It is just a fact.

That fact is likely to bite even the best intentioned person at some point. Let's say you just got a new job, more pay but commute longer. Oh, crap, got to get a new car or move.

Also, I am always intrigued that the "carbon footprint" crowd apparently does not realize that in this country, electricity is developed mainly using coal, fuel oil, and natural gas. So that is what you are "filling the tank" of your EV with.

Second, your carbon footprint does not matter. India and China are spewing more carbon that you can offset. If you believe man is warming he planet, you are barking up the wrong tree.

With 200+ mile range vehicles coming out means your longer commutes don't matter. In fact, that was one reason my kid with a long commute has a 200+ mile EV.

Electricity generation various considerably depending on your state!! MORE importantly, it is the one source that is getting CLEANER every year.

IOWA example via: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...tricity-generation-changed-in-your-state.html

ND

OK

VA

 

[ncbill]

That's really what it comes down to, isn't it? America is divided into two camps. Anyone driving a hybrid or an electric car has established themselves as a member of one camp.

Not at all...choosing a hybrid powertrain over a pure EV gives most of the benefits at a fraction of the cost.

I expect my next vehicle will have a hybrid powertrain for both greatly improved city mpg and as a hedge against rapid increases in the price of gasoline.

 

[Rianne]

Interesting episode. I wonder how much is based on real history and how much was is clever theatrics? I'm sure some it was at least truth-based.
-ERD50

Here's 4 minutes of reality for you, regarding fun and irritation. Does stray a bit from the engineering aspect of electric cars. But I know you're a patient man with an extraordinary sense of humor.

 

[Music Lover]

With 200+ mile range vehicles coming out means your longer commutes don't matter. In fact, that was one reason my kid has a 200+ mile EV.

It's not about the commutes...it's about the longer trips. Some people (I am one of them) have no use or interest in a vehicle with a limited range that takes hours to re-fuel.

For me, getting an EV means getting a vehicle that I can't use in many situations without major inconveniences and sacrifices. I have nothing against them, but they are not feasible for my lifestyle. Average range means nothing unless 100% of your trips are average.

 

[braumeister]

It's not about the commutes...it's about the longer trips. Some people (I am one of them) have no use or interest in a vehicle with a limited range that takes hours to re-fuel.

For me, getting an EV means getting a vehicle that I can't use in many situations without major inconveniences and sacrifices. I have nothing against them, but they are not feasible for my lifestyle. Average range means nothing unless 100% of your trips are average.

Exactly.
I think some of the more rabid promoters of Teslas tend to live in extremely urban locations like LA or SF, and forget about those of us who routinely drive 100 or 200 miles to get somewhere with no reasonable access to charging when we reach our destination. Or who like to take a driving vacation into the boonies. Sure, we could rent an ICE for those trips, but we don't want to.

 

[eroscott]

Exactly.
I think some of the more rabid promoters of Teslas tend to live in extremely urban locations like LA or SF, and forget about those of us who routinely drive 100 or 200 miles to get somewhere with no reasonable access to charging when we reach our destination. Or who like to take a driving vacation into the boonies. Sure, we could rent an ICE for those trips, but we don't want to.

FYI, I've traveled thru IN, KY, TN, NC in the past year without any trouble.

And just to keeping it real-world that it is not hours to fill up...
Usually for 25-30 minutes to fill up JUST ENOUGH to get to the next supercharger. This is the key you don't need to stay until 100% full. Just enough to get to your next supercharger plus 10-15% buffer. Eating lunch or dinner ... just charge longer and your next stops are shorter.

My recently travels below and the Tesla Supercharge map with ONLY 100 mile radius on the blue circles. ie. Superchargers are usually 125 miles or less apart. This is only Tesla ones. Many other chargers (highway, destination) etc are coming this year and next. Tesla is adding 100s more too.

Example rough and highlevel planner from Tesla. Note that there are several others online with more details and control. Also the car has a built in one. You just tell the nav where you want to go and it sets up waypoints to the supercharges takes you there. It tells you on your phone or in the car when you can leave to get to the next waypoint/supercharger.
https://www.tesla.com/trips

_________
Tesla Supercharge map with ONLY 100 mile radius on the blue circles.

Below is only the Tesla charges there are several other companies creating fast DC chargers.

 

[Montecfo]

FYI, I've traveled thru IN, KY, TN, NC in the past year without any trouble.

And just to keeping it real-world that it is not hours to fill up...
Usually for 25-30 minutes to fill up JUST ENOUGH to get to the next supercharger. This is the key you don't need to stay until 100% full. Just enough to get to your next supercharger plus 10-15% buffer. Eating lunch or dinner ... just charge longer and your next stops are shorter.

My recently travels below and the Tesla Supercharge map with ONLY 100 mile radius on the blue circles. ie. Superchargers are usually 125 miles or less apart. This is only Tesla ones. Many other chargers (highway, destination) etc are coming this year and next. Tesla is adding 100s more too.

Example rough and highlevel planner from Tesla. Note that there are several others online with more details and control. Also the car has a built in one. You just tell the nav where you want to go and it sets up waypoints to the supercharges takes you there. It tells you on your phone or in the car when you can leave to get to the next waypoint/supercharger.
https://www.tesla.com/trips

_________
Tesla Supercharge map with ONLY 100 mile radius on the blue circles.

Below is only the Tesla charges there are several other companies creating fast DC chargers.

All of these things are disadvantages of EVs. You say they are not that bad or you can work around them.

Sure but what's the payoff?

Where is the advantage that makes all these disadvantages worthwhile in your opinion?

Curious.

 

[eroscott]

All of these things are disadvantages of EVs. You say they are not that bad or you can work around them.

Sure but what's the payoff?

Where is the advantage that makes all these disadvantages worthwhile in your opinion?

Curious.

I was responding to your points that you can't use these cars conveniently in the midwest around KY. It was trivial to do that.

In my various post, I provided a bunch of extra information so other posters/lurkers can see and understand how it works in the reality vs the purport myths that everyone has and propagates. People tend to be close minded about certain topics and don't want to research or test examples.

The EV pros/cons have been discussed numerous times before. I won't list them all.

Here is one...
* 2 of our 3 cars charger overnight while we are sleeping and they do it via 120v garage outlets. The work great for commuting. Charging while sleeping just like charging your phone is trivial. Wake up with a full phone and car.
* 1 of our 3 our cars plugs into an RV plug (NEMA 14-50 / 240v) in our garage. Same as any campground. No special equipment required. I did this at a remoter location in a northern state. Lot of campgrounds
* I charge during the night while our electrical rates are lower (hourly plan). Vehicles wake up and start charging. Done in the morning.

 

[Original Wally]

My brother is an extremely liberal, Methodist pastor (contradiction in terms, I know ?)

Actually not a contradiction. The UMC tends to be a very liberal denomination. As a conservative I am well aware of it.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

Exactly.
I think some of the more rabid promoters of Teslas tend to live in extremely urban locations like LA or SF, and forget about those of us who routinely drive 100 or 200 miles to get somewhere with no reasonable access to charging when we reach our destination. Or who like to take a driving vacation into the boonies. Sure, we could rent an ICE for those trips, but we don't want to.

Or you could own 2 cars. One of each.

 

[Original Wally]

I have read all the comments. For me, ICE is still the choice. When there is an EV that:
1) Has a 500+ mile range.
2) And has that range at 65+ freeway speeds
3) That can refill in the same time as a gasoline fill up
4) That is cost comparable


THEN - I will consider one. Till then, no way. **MAYBE** an EV for a 2nd car for just around town use. Maybe. Shrug.



The other thing I see is that often the EV crowd seems to thing themselves superior. Not all of that crowd, but often. Just an observation.

 

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

Are they adding the recharge power cost on the meal bill?

For 50 to 75 cents?

Why bother?

Most people tip more.

 

[ocean view]

Are they adding the recharge power cost on the meal bill?

Other than incentives provided by certain EV manufacturers, public charging is usually not free. It is a pay for use service, just like filling your tank with gas.

The charging stations are generally operated by a company such as Chargepoint, EVnow, Blink, etc. and require an account with them linked to your cc. You scan your ID card or phone app to initiate the charging. They’ll send you a notification when the charging is complete.

The business associated with the charge station location (restaurant, library, Walgreens) is generally not involved in the transaction.

 

[Music Lover]

For 50 to 75 cents?

Why bother?

Most people tip more.

What people tip is not relevant. It's expecting others to subsidize someone else's choice. Maybe those plugging in their EV should happily pay a surcharge on their meal rather than have others chip in.

 

[ERD50]

I .... Average range means nothing unless 100% of your trips are average.

With 200+ mile range vehicles coming out means your longer commutes don't matter. In fact, that was one reason my kid with a long commute has a 200+ mile EV.

Electricity generation various considerably depending on your state!! MORE importantly, it is the one source that is getting CLEANER every year. ...

+1 Music Lover.

Eroscott has problems with the misapplication of averages. As that old saw goes "The 6 foot statistician drown standing in a pool with an average depth of 3 feet."

And as I've pointed out time and time again (and will continue every time these EV fans mention averages on the grid), averages for power generation don't matter. What matters is the extra marginal power needed to charge a fleet of EVs. Since renewable energy (RE) sources are already limited, any added demand must be met by fossil. Nukes typically already run at max capacity.

Those EVs are running on fossil fuel. That's all there is to it. A bunch of fancy positive trends don't change that.

-ERD50

 

[samclem]

And just to keeping it real-world that it is not hours to fill up...
Usually for 25-30 minutes to fill up JUST ENOUGH to get to the next supercharger.

I think sometimes EV devotees don't realize that some of their observations strike those outside the EV community as quite out of the ordinary.

The quoted section above: I would never consider this an acceptable way to travel long distances. Well, maybe if I had a horse that needed to rest for thirty minutes every few hours, and if it could only drink from special watering holes--I guess I'd have to accept it.

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by Offgrid Organic Farmer View Post
For 50 to 75 cents?

Why bother?

Most people tip more.

What people tip is not relevant. It's expecting others to subsidize someone else's choice. Maybe those plugging in their EV should happily pay a surcharge on their meal rather than have others chip in.

Interesting (being polite), how these EV fans so often change the subject instead of simply addressing the issue. As you say, tipping has nothing to do with it.

Most EV drivers already get a bunch of benefits. Tax credits for the buyer, the manufacturer probably got credits (which trickles down to the EV buyer), priority lane usage, not contributing to road taxes, etc.

This smugness is getting to me. The EV fans are looking for support, but I think they are just creating a backlash with all this diversion and smoke and mirrors. At this point, if some place I frequent started offering free charging for EVs, I'd ask for a top off of my gas tank. Why not? What's the deal? That EV isn't saving the planet, why am I paying for their travel? It's getting aggravating.

-ERD50

 

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

What people tip is not relevant. It's expecting others to subsidize someone else's choice. Maybe those plugging in their EV should happily pay a surcharge on their meal rather than have others chip in.

That is a normal part of doing business.

When a restaurant adds white linen tableclothes on their tables, they do it to draw more customers, and the prices on the menu go up five times as much as the cost of the tablecloths.

Nobody is subsidizing anything.

 

[ERD50]

That is a normal part of doing business.

When a restaurant adds white linen tableclothes on their tables, they do it to draw more customers, and the prices on the menu go up five times as much as the cost of the tablecloths.

Nobody is subsidizing anything.

The white linen tablecloths are for all customers. Not just people who drive blue cars, or who own Border Collies. You don't see the difference?

Based on some of these responses, I'm seriously starting to wonder if the Electro-Magnetic Radiation from those powerful motors in EVs isn't affecting the driver's brains. Maybe that explains some of these EV drivers relying on "Autopilot"?

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

+1 Music Lover.

Eroscott has problems with the misapplication of averages. As that old saw goes "The 6 foot statistician drown standing in a pool with an average depth of 3 feet."

And as I've pointed out time and time again (and will continue every time these EV fans mention averages on the grid), averages for power generation don't matter. What matters is the extra marginal power needed to charge a fleet of EVs. Since renewable energy (RE) sources are already limited, any added demand must be met by fossil. Nukes typically already run at max capacity.

Those EVs are running on fossil fuel. That's all there is to it. A bunch of fancy positive trends don't change that.

-ERD50

EVs will be truly green if they are required to be charged only from solar power. Although everything is connected to the grid, it is not difficult to count how much power solar plants are contributing to the grid, and how much is being drawn out from the grid by charging stations. This is how electricity producers and consumers settle score when everyone is connected to the grid.

This of course means no charging at night. You cannot get solar power from moon shine!

 

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

The white linen tablecloths are for all customers. Not just people who drive blue cars, or who own Border Collies. You don't see the difference?

By increasing the prices the owners can increase their profits. That is all that matters. If a few EV drivers get a benefit, who cares?

Owners of these restaurants are betting on EVs being a wave of the future.

I drive a plug-in. I charge it from our solar-powered house. I have been retired for a while now, I recently bought some rental real estate. My hybrid plug-in can get me from home, to my investment property, and home again. Without consuming petroleum. To me that is a big 'WIN'!

With EV charging stations located from coast-to-coast across this nation, so long as each location is a businessman using this to increase his business, it is all 'free'! Give it a rest. Catch your breath and regain composure.

 

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

EVs will be truly green if they are required to be charged only from solar power.

I dont own a EV. I have a hybrid. My hybrid normally gets me where I want to go, using solar-power. When I sometimes need to go somewhere further, then I burn a little petro. Who cares?

I like it because as a retiree I prefer to spend less money.

Get over it.

 

[mountainsoft]

I have read all the comments. For me, ICE is still the choice. When there is an EV that:
1) Has a 500+ mile range.
2) And has that range at 65+ freeway speeds
3) That can refill in the same time as a gasoline fill up
4) That is cost comparable

I've never owned an ICE vehicle that could go 500+ miles. Maybe if you drive a truck or something, but every passenger car I've owned has maxed around 360 miles on a tank. My old 76 VW Rabbit only got around 240 miles per tank, not much different than today's EV's.

Besides, 500 miles at 70mph is over 7 hours of non-stop driving. Surely you would need to stop for food, empty your bladder, or get some sleep before then?

Your needs may be different, but most people aren't driving those kinds of distances on a daily basis. Maybe when taking a trip somewhere, but there's no reason you couldn't have an ICE car for long trips and an EV for around town.

I would buy an EV today if they weren't so expensive. But my idea of affordable is $5000 or less. That's why I've never owned a car that was less than 15 years old.

 

[NW-Bound]

I dont own a EV. I have a hybrid. My hybrid normally gets me where I want to go, using solar-power. When I sometimes need to go somewhere further, then I burn a little petro. Who cares?

I like it because as a retiree I prefer to spend less money.

Get over it.

If a Tesla owner says he likes his car because of the acceleration and all the gadgets, and because the subsidy sweetens the deal, and all the free charging, people all understand.

What gets debated here is the claim that their vehicles are green, and that is dubious. And I say that even though I like EVs (do not own one, and never a hybrid one even), and I like solar energy.

I am building a DIY solar+battery storage, and it does not even qualify for any subsidy or rebate.

PS. My DIY system will supplement, not replace, my grid connection. Even doing it myself and with a good deal on lithium battery, it will take me 10 years to recover the cost. And that is with all my free labor.

I am having fun, teach myself something, and hope to recover the cost in 10 years. And I will not claim to be superior to my neighbors who do not have such a system. Well, I am certainly more technically knowledgeable. Just not morally superior.

 

[eroscott]

Originally Posted by eroscott View Post
And just to keeping it real-world that it is not hours to fill up...
Usually for 25-30 minutes to fill up JUST ENOUGH to get to the next supercharger.

I think sometimes EV devotees don't realize that some of their observations strike those outside the EV community as quite out of the ordinary.

The quoted section above: I would never consider this an acceptable way to travel long distances. Well, maybe if I had a horse that needed to rest for thirty minutes every few hours, and if it could only drink from special watering holes--I guess I'd have to accept it.

I appreciate your comments and feedback. I get what you are saying on face value. However, for modest travel it is not dramatically different and in many ways fairly relaxing (of course, I do use AutoPilot too so the car steers staying very centered in the lane and maintains a distance to the car ahead ... similar to a a horse steering itself!! :-} ).

Points:
a) What I mean by that is often people (more so for older ones?) want to take breaks for the bathroom or stretch their legs or get a snack/drink. This is often 10-15-20 minutes anyway in my experience.

b) Typically when you leave you are charging up with a full or nearly full battery because you have just charged overnight.

c) Another point that I mentioned above that may have been missed that if you are stopping for lunch (or dinner) that you simply charge up longer and your next stop then is shorter.

Check out this trip 311 mile trip which I've done a few times (starting town not actual but in vicinity). We would stop in Indianapolis for lunch and even tho we only had to stop for 23 minutes we would eat longer than that and not be in a rush.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

I dont own a EV. I have a hybrid. My hybrid normally gets me where I want to go, using solar-power.

I can only guess you have a plug-in hybrid (PHEV - plug-in hybrid electric vehicle) since you mention solar. Just a suggestion that you may want to clarify in the future as most people think of hybrids as self-contained like the Prius and the like that 'generate' their own electricity from gas instead of from the grid which is several times cheaper.