Another challenge for electric vehicles

[samclem]

Points:
a) What I mean by that is often people (more so for older ones?) want to take breaks for the bathroom or stretch their legs or get a snack/drink. This is often 10-15-20 minutes anyway in my experience.

b) Typically when you leave you are charging up with a full or nearly full battery because you have just charged overnight.

c) Another point that I mentioned above that may have been missed that if you are stopping for lunch (or dinner) that you simply charge up longer and your next stop then is shorter.

Check out this trip 311 mile trip which I've done a few times (starting town not actual but in vicinity). We would stop in Indianapolis for lunch and even tho we only had to stop for 23 minutes we would eat longer than that and not be in a rush.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

Yes, I see that you don't mind planning around fuel stops on a long trip. Nothing wrong with that. As for me and DW, we want to eat when we are hungry, etc without a lot of pre-planning. We want to eat where we choose (not just a place near a charger), and I would not want to arrive at an unfamilar town with 20 miles of range in the tank and another hour (plus) of charging somewhere before we could set out with a full "tank" the next day. 500 miles is a normal day of traveling for us, and stops are short. Fueling spots for IC cars are so ubiquitous and refueling is so rapid and infrequent that I would not voluntarily give it up for this total EV experience.

I'm glad EV drivers have this option. Only when I'm asked to pay for it is it an issue with me.

 

[Music Lover]

I've never owned an ICE vehicle that could go 500+ miles. Maybe if you drive a truck or something, but every passenger car I've owned has maxed around 360 miles on a tank. My old 76 VW Rabbit only got around 240 miles per tank, not much different than today's EV's.

Besides, 500 miles at 70mph is over 7 hours of non-stop driving. Surely you would need to stop for food, empty your bladder, or get some sleep before then?

What I mean by that is often people (more so for older ones?) want to take breaks for the bathroom or stretch their legs or get a snack/drink. This is often 10-15-20 minutes anyway in my experience.

At 75+ mph my car has a range of 850 kms (525 miles).

My girlfriend and I recently drove to Florida from Canada...2800 kms, or about 1750 miles. Day 1 was 1050 kms (650 miles). We stopped 3 times for pee breaks including crossing the border and getting gas. All 3 stops were 10 minutes or less. We pack lunches and eat on the road. Total time start to finish was about 8.5 hours.

We're probably not typical travellers based on the above, but that's what we prefer.

 

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

... PS. My DIY system will supplement, not replace, my grid connection. Even doing it myself and with a good deal on lithium battery, it will take me 10 years to recover the cost. And that is with all my free labor.

If you lived on a farm, your solar-power system would depreciate over 7 years.

1/7th of the total cost is a write-off each year, for seven years.

This drastically changes how many years it takes to 'pay for itself'.

 

[folivier]

We have traveled on roads recently that while pulling a small trailer had a 250 mile range. And hoped that the only gas station within 150 miles was open. Also had a long detour near the NM and AZ border along I-10 and almost ran out of gas. I think the small gas station was about out due to the unforseen traffic. Stuff happens, how will things like this play out with a vehicle needing a charging station?
They seem ok but not for long trips and long Sunday drives out in the country. Can't carry an extra battery like you can a 5 gallon can of gas. IOW we ain't there yet!

 

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

.... I can only guess you have a plug-in hybrid (PHEV - plug-in hybrid electric vehicle) since you mention solar. Just a suggestion that you may want to clarify in the future as most people think of hybrids as self-contained like the Prius and the like that 'generate' their own electricity from gas instead of from the grid which is several times cheaper.

Yes, as I said I drive a plug-in hybrid. I charge it up from my household solar-power system.

Most days my daily driving is less than 25 miles, round trip, so I can do all of it on EV using solar-power.

But if I need to make a longer trip, after 25 miles the ICE turns on and takes me the rest of the way.

 

[ERD50]

You just have to have some basic common sense with this tho. Many cars are >200 mile range now. How far do you drive each day? Does 30 or 40% matter? After all it is just a temporary loss. This may have mattered when you drove a Nissan LEAF with 70-80 mile max range. It is dumb now with 200+ mile cars.

It has been very cold in Chicagoland recently ... you know what changed in my driving habits. ... )

Your later post contradicts this quite clearly:

....

Check out this trip 311 mile trip which I've done a few times (starting town not actual but in vicinity). We would stop in Indianapolis for lunch and even tho we only had to stop for 23 minutes we would eat longer than that and not be in a rush.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/
....

A 200+ mile range vehicle with a 40% range reduction in cold Chicago weather would not have made it the 201 miles to that Supercharger. You'd need a 330+ mile range at 40% reduction to make it, assuming you didn't hit a traffic jam, or reroute for snow.

Sure, you could make a stop somewhere in-between, but you better plan that out. Looks like ~ 80 miles between Superchargers on that route? And that's going to add a lot of time to that trip.

Like samclem says, if you are happy with your purchase, that's great. But EVs have a long ways to go to be considered a replacement for just about everyone. And I can't think of a single reason why we should be forced (through tax credits, loss of road tax income, and other benefits) to promote them. If people want them, and like them so much, let them pay the price. Why ask me to pay for something that you keep telling us is so wonderful? Based on your comments, it's hard to understand why anyone would need an incentive to buy an EV. It is counter to your argument. It should be the other way around - charge each EV buyer with an added R&D fee, to support battery research.

-ERD50

 

[eroscott]

Yes, I see that you don't mind planning around fuel stops on a long trip. Nothing wrong with that. As for me and DW, we want to eat when we are hungry, etc without a lot of pre-planning. We want to eat where we choose (not just a place near a charger), and I would not want to arrive at an unfamilar town with 20 miles of range in the tank and another hour (plus) of charging somewhere before we could set out with a full "tank" the next day. 500 miles is a normal day of traveling for us, and stops are short. Fueling spots for IC cars are so ubiquitous and refueling is so rapid and infrequent that I would not voluntarily give it up for this total EV experience.

I'm glad EV drivers have this option. Only when I'm asked to pay for it is it an issue with me.

I get that EV traveling (at this curr tech point in time) is not for everyone. (Aside: my current vehicle has a max EPA range of 295 miles).
* Some people often say they don't travel in a car more than 300-400 miles and just fly.
* 500 miles in a day is a fair amount but I did that easily on my trip out to WA/Washington last summer. My first night I stayed at a hotel with a 'destination' charger. I'd be happy to show an example.
* I also know people that are hardcore travelers and made their kids go to the bathroom in a bucket. Helps you get to that important destination so much faster --- of course, I like the journey -- like my financial journey.

Re: Arrive with 20 mile, have eating options, etc.
BTW, in my example above I mentioned you could charger longer when you eat. In the ABRP site you just specify that. Here is an example graphic below but we would probably stay 45 min and not 1+ hrs. Also, at that charging stop (waypoint), I think I have eat at 4 or 5 diff places. Good enough for us. As well that night, I've either charged over dinner and/or the place I stayed had a 'destination charger' so woke up with a 'full tank of gas'.

 

[eroscott]

... 500 miles is a normal day of traveling for us, and stops are short. ...

As an unusual example, my wife and I did this 671 day trip back from a vacation a couple years ago. It was a lot less tiring than one would imagine because AutoPilot takes a LOT of the cognitive work out of driving. You definitely need to be responsible and pay attention with hands on the wheel you just have to mentally 'work' a lot less.

Long stop for lunch, shorter stop for dinner, another stop for a break ... all at our chargers. You can see two 30-40 minute stops and a 50-60 minute stop. Asheville to London was through the 'smokies' so speed was not an issue and you use more energy on the way up but regain a lot of it on the way down via regen braking (energy back in battery or just use very little energy).

I only point this out to blow another myth up Hope my examples give people an idea of what is actually possible TODAY. There are faster charging cars and chargers already being built. (Aside: my current vehicle has a max EPA range of 295 miles).

 

[Chuckanut]

The white linen tablecloths are for all customers. Not just people who drive blue cars, or who own Border Collies. You don't see the difference?

I prefer a brightly colored pattern myself.

Not all extras and deals are for every customer. There is the senior discount for example (HORRORS! Don't take that away from us!). Or ladies day at the nightclub. Or the daily special. Or the early bird discount. Or 1/2 off the remaining pastries after 3:00 PM (one of my favorite deals by the way).

It is the owner's business how to attract and keep customers. For all I know the EV owners may buy more high profit items like dessert. If I think I am being discriminated against by their pricing, or paying to much I can go elsewhere.

In the great scheme of things, whatever deals a restaurant offers are not that important.

 

[ERD50]

I prefer a brightly colored pattern myself.

Not all extras and deals are for every customer. There is the senior discount for example (HORRORS! Don't take that away from us!). Or ladies day at the nightclub. Or the daily special. Or the early bird discount. Or 1/2 off the remaining pastries after 3:00 PM (one of my favorite deals by the way).

It is the owner's business how to attract and keep customers. For all I know the EV owners may buy more high profit items like dessert. If I think I am being discriminated against by their pricing, or paying to much I can go elsewhere.

In the great scheme of things, whatever deals a restaurant offers are not that important.

" brightly colored pattern" makes me think "spaghetti and meatballs" or "pizza", Yummy!

Yes, not a big deal overall, but it is just getting to feel like the straw that breaks the camel's back.

I personally think senior discounts are kinda stupid, why would a business want to age discriminate? Of course, I have no problem with people taking advantage of any discount or credit, if I were to take any action, it would be to talk to the manager.

-ERD50

 

[eroscott]

A 200+ mile range vehicle with a 40% range reduction in cold Chicago weather would not have made it the 201 miles to that Supercharger. You'd need a 330+ mile range at 40% reduction to make it, assuming you didn't hit a traffic jam, or reroute for snow.

The trips in question have not been in the dead of winter. Even so I've pointed out a few times that when you are driving the use of the battery and chemical reaction warms up the battery, plus the sophisticated cars have battery warmers to aid a little, plus if you charge right before you leave, your battery is warmed up from the grid energy. (My current car has an EPA rating of 295 as an aside.)

Sure, you could make a stop somewhere in-between, but you better plan that out. Looks like ~ 80 miles between Superchargers on that route? And that's going to add a lot of time to that trip.

Heres the thing that people are missing. When you are in the car and you tell it you want to go some place outside of your current level of charge (40% or 95% or whatever), it has a built-in "route planner" and figures out waypoints (superchargers). It would add stops for a given length of time AUTOMATICALLY. No real hard planning by the driver. This is how the Teslas work. Other EVs ... not so much

As well the car/"trip planner" may be worried about your current driving or bucking the wind or weather issues AS YOU are driving part way through your drive. It may tell you to slow down 5 mph to make extra extra sure you won't have a problem. It is often quite conservative ... as you would hope it would be. It is LOOKING out for you constantly. I remember traveling through MT when it got pretty 'upset' with me as I was going to be left without any place to charge based on my NAV destination. I understood that. I arrived in Lincoln, MT as planned and plugged into an RV plug at a campground which I called about. No problem, no stread, no big deal.

Hope that stuff helps explain and gives a better perspective.

 

[kcowan]

My hybrid plug-in can get me from home, to my investment property, and home again. Without consuming petroleum. To me that is a big 'WIN'!.

Can you tell what you are consuming when you use up electricity? Natural gas? Nuclear? Coal? Water power? Solar? Wind?

Or is this not your problem?

 

[Chuckanut]

" brightly colored pattern" makes me think "spaghetti and meatballs" or "pizza", Yummy!

<snip>

I personally think senior discounts are kinda stupid, why would a business want to age discriminate? Of course, I have no problem with people taking advantage of any discount or credit, if I were to take any action, it would be to talk to the manager.

-ERD50

Yes, I was thinking of an Italian restaurant. Very good!

I agree on the discounts. But first, let's get rid of tipping.

Back on topic.....

We've really flogged the EV thing to death. Time will tell how it works out.
Personally, I can see a world where both ICE and EV autos fit in - Use the proper tool for the job.

 

[ERD50]

The trips in question have not been in the dead of winter. ....

I knew that. The point was (did you really not get that?), it could have been. And that would have been a problem. These are EV limitations. Sure, not common, but as I pointed out earlier, the alternative (ICE/hybrid) does not have these limitations. It reduces the value proposition for some potential customers.

.... Heres the thing that people are missing. When you are in the car and you tell it you want to go some place outside of your current level of charge (40% or 95% or whatever), it has a built-in "route planner" and figures out waypoints (superchargers). It would add stops for a given length of time AUTOMATICALLY. No real hard planning by the driver. This is how the Teslas work. Other EVs ... not so much ...

Hope that stuff helps explain and gives a better perspective.

Please stop underestimating us, or assuming we are this stupid/ignorant. It's insulting. It provides an appearance of smugness on your part, that isn't helping your case in winning over people to the EV side.

Yes, I'm fully aware that Tesla has some advanced mapping and planning/prediction capabilities. But as samclem points out, this is the car dictating your trip and timing to you, rather than the other way around. I purchase a car to serve my needs, not the other way around.

.... As well the car/"trip planner" may be worried about your current driving or bucking the wind or weather issues AS YOU are driving part way through your drive. It may tell you to slow down 5 mph to make extra extra sure you won't have a problem. ...

Again, the car dictating to the driver. Not a positive.

.... Hope that stuff helps explain and gives a better perspective.

More than you could have hoped!

-ERD50

 

[mpeirce]

I've never owned an ICE vehicle that could go 500+ miles.

My diesel MB E-250 has a 20 gal tank and gets over 40 mg when cruising on the highway going 75-80 mph giving an over 800 miles range.

Do I ever use this? Actually yes, I've driven many long distance drives (coast to coast and north to south) and it makes life just that much easier.

My usual pattern when traveling is to refuel each morning when I hit the road. Then I can travel virtually as far as I like without thinking about refueling.

Do I stop? Sure. I stop lots! But where and when I feel like it. Often at a rest stop to stretch for a few minutes. Often at a park near my route to enjoy a longer walk or eat a picnic lunch (our favorite travel lunch).

I could imagine having a second car that is an EV/Hybrid/whatever but it would have to be nicer and cheaper than the alternative for me to go for it.

Our current second car is a (gas) VW GTI getting over 30 mpg around town. I fill it up once a month even if it doesn't really need it. So saving time at the gas station isn't a really big issue to me.

 

[Chuckanut]

That's a great sales pitch! Zero-60 in 4 seconds, but it might make you slow down to 5 mph!

More than you could have hoped!

-ERD50

Opps! You dropped the ball that time.

He slow down 5 mp, not slow down to 5 mph. IOW, if one is driving 65, slow down to 60.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

Please stop underestimating us, or assuming we are this stupid/ignorant. It's insulting. It provides an appearance of smugness on your part, that isn't helping your case in winning over people to the EV side.

-ERD50

We get it...you don't like EVs...that's pretty clear. I am not an EV owner, nor looking to be swayed one way or another. I drive very little and have no reason for an electric car, but I appreciate hearing the perspective of an ER owner. If you are hell bent and determined to never touch an EV, then why do you continue to disrupt this thread?

Also, I think this WAS valuable and actually CONTRIBUTED to the subject matter:

Originally Posted by eroscott
.... Heres the thing that people are missing. When you are in the car and you tell it you want to go some place outside of your current level of charge (40% or 95% or whatever), it has a built-in "route planner" and figures out waypoints (superchargers). It would add stops for a given length of time AUTOMATICALLY. No real hard planning by the driver. This is how the Teslas work. Other EVs ... not so much ...

Hope that stuff helps explain and gives a better perspective.

 

[ERD50]

Opps! You dropped the ball that time.

He slow down 5 mp, not slow down to 5 mph. IOW, if one is driving 65, slow down to 60.

Thanks for catching that. I guess all the hyperbole from these fans got to me - I'll see if I can edit... - ERD50

 

[ERD50]

We get it...you don't like EVs...that's pretty clear.

.... If you are hell bent and determined to never touch an EV, then why do you continue to disrupt this thread? ...

No, you don't get it.

I am fine with EVs, I don't dislike them. And I will be considering them for our next car replacement.

What I don't like is exaggerated, out of context claims, on anything. Especially from people who won't even honestly address the issues that are raised, but instead divert, or take it out of context.

edit/add: So you made the claim - so show me a post that shows I "dislike EVs". I don't think you will find one. You will find many posts where I objectively point out some of the negatives. I even occasionally mention the positives, but others here have covered that more than adequately, so I don't chime in much on that.

...

Also, I think this WAS valuable and actually CONTRIBUTED to the subject matter:

And it was addressed. The car dictates the timing and route to the driver. That is not a positive, it is an adaptation to a negative. Sure, it helps temper the issue somewhat, but it doesn't turn it into a positive.

-ERD50

 

[Texas Proud]

I appreciate your comments and feedback. I get what you are saying on face value. However, for modest travel it is not dramatically different and in many ways fairly relaxing (of course, I do use AutoPilot too so the car steers staying very centered in the lane and maintains a distance to the car ahead ... similar to a a horse steering itself!! :-} ).

Points:
a) What I mean by that is often people (more so for older ones?) want to take breaks for the bathroom or stretch their legs or get a snack/drink. This is often 10-15-20 minutes anyway in my experience.

b) Typically when you leave you are charging up with a full or nearly full battery because you have just charged overnight.

c) Another point that I mentioned above that may have been missed that if you are stopping for lunch (or dinner) that you simply charge up longer and your next stop then is shorter.

Check out this trip 311 mile trip which I've done a few times (starting town not actual but in vicinity). We would stop in Indianapolis for lunch and even tho we only had to stop for 23 minutes we would eat longer than that and not be in a rush.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

When we are going somewhere we want to get there... say we are driving from Houston to the Grand Canyon (or similar)... we will drive about 300 or so miles, stop and fill up gas, maybe do a snack (sometimes just eat in the car) and then keep going...



We will then drive another 280 ish miles to Amarillo and stop there... we want to eat at a specific place that has no chargers.. we then want to get to the hotel and maybe swim or jacuzzi... then do it again the next day...


BTW, I do not think you can do a good Grand Canyon from Houston in a Tesla... will have to check the restrictions....

 

[MichaelB]

We've really flogged the EV thing to death.

For sure, but that will not stop the floggers. They’re on a mission

We get it...you don't like EVs...that's pretty clear. I am not an EV owner, nor looking to be swayed one way or another. I drive very little and have no reason for an electric car, but I appreciate hearing the perspective of an ER owner. If you are hell bent and determined to never touch an EV, then why do you continue to disrupt this thread?

Something many of us would agree with.

I’m a bit surprised (and disappointed) at the personal and condescending tone in some posts. It’s making the entire discussion less useful and pleasant for everyone.

 

[RunningBum]

Perspective of an EV owner is fine. An EV owner telling us that it really wouldn't be a change for a non-EV owner when clearly it would be for some of us rubs me the wrong way. Telling me how you drive on a trip is helpful. Don't tell me how I'm going to drive, and no, I don't pee in a bucket, that's absurd. I find euro's charts on the driving distance/time/charge very helpful. It also tells me that it wouldn't work for the way I like to drive. Maybe someday.

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by ExFlyBoy5 View Post
We get it...you don't like EVs...that's pretty clear.

Something many of us would agree with.
...

So can you show me a post I've made that "clearly shows I dislike EVs"? As I said, I don't think you will find one. You will find many posts where I objectively point out some of the negatives. I even occasionally mention the positives, but others here have covered that more than adequately, so I don't chime in much on that.


I think this is like a lot of the "Renewable Energy" threads. People don't like facts/figures that burst their bubble, so they go off on the "everyone laughed at the Wright Brothers" , "you have stock in the oil companies" type comments rather than simply addressing the issues.


-ERD50

 

[travelover]

........Personally, I can see a world where both ICE and EV autos fit in - Use the proper tool for the job.

Actually moving the source of pollution can be a big help - i.e. have electric cars and buses in crowded urban areas and have the power plant out in the boonies. And now that we all know that climate change is a Chinese hoax, run that coal plant full blast.

 

[MichaelB]

So can you show me a post I've made that "clearly shows I dislike EVs"? As I said, I don't think you will find one. You will find many posts where I objectively point out some of the negatives. I even occasionally mention the positives, but others here have covered that more than adequately, so I don't chime in much on that.

You did see the other 62 words in the post I quoted. Maybe I just agreeing with the overall sentiment and not each individual word?

And now that we all know that climate change is a Chinese hoax, run that coal plant full blast.

unhelpful ...