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Old 06-30-2014, 09:16 PM   #61
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Storage is happening, but it will lag a bit most likely. We don't need it in the USA for at least a decade. I believe ~30% of peak power coming from PV is the point where it becomes a real pain. It also depends on how interconnected the market is. A very big smart grid will do a lot better than small dumb ones. It only takes a couple hours storage to really help as well as it's the ramp rate around 5pm when the sun goes down and everyone goes home and turns up the AC that is the big issue. Plug-in cars may make this worse soon too.

I don't know if residential PV will last in its current form. Maybe BIPV will get cheap enough eventually. Commercial and Utility make sense without subsidies in many markets in the USA today. Thousands of big box stores currently get almost all their energy from PV on the roof, but they don't all actively tell their customers as it's seen as a marketing risk. What does that say about America?

PV is the future. 100 years from now it will dominate power generation. I expect it to surpass wind in a few years. Centralized power stations running through a big dumb grid have a limited life IMO.
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Old 06-30-2014, 09:32 PM   #62
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Just had a quote done, about 8.5k. Did the math, i feel way better putting that cash in the market, letting it grow to pay my electricity forever.


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Old 07-01-2014, 02:56 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
It is not common for Europeans to have A/C in the homes.
Just to reinforce that one. Most hotels do have them, but I personally know no-one who has A/C in their home.

In warmer countries it is more prevalent though (Italy, Spain).

Other places just open their window when it is too hot
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:27 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by dallas27 View Post
Just had a quote done, about 8.5k. Did the math, i feel way better putting that cash in the market, letting it grow to pay my electricity forever.


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$8500 x 6% returns = $510/yr = $43/mo.
Explanations:
You don't live near Dallas or anywhere else that is that hot.
"Pay my electricity" = "Pay for some of my electricity"
You've got a way to reliably generate more than 6% real return "forever"
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Old 07-01-2014, 08:29 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
$8500 x 6% returns = $510/yr = $43/mo.
Explanations:
You don't live near Dallas or anywhere else that is that hot.
"Pay my electricity" = "Pay for some of my electricity"
You've got a way to reliably generate more than 6% real return "forever"
  • Expect energy prices to drop >3% in the coming year(s)
  • Expect solar panel prices to drop >3% in the coming year(s)
  • Don't trust the quoted numbers
Just a few examples
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Old 07-07-2014, 10:43 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
$8500 x 6% returns = $510/yr = $43/mo.
Explanations:
You don't live near Dallas or anywhere else that is that hot.
"Pay my electricity" = "Pay for some of my electricity"
You've got a way to reliably generate more than 6% real return "forever"

Not really, i learned they slowly wear out and drop output over time. Also, if i need to remove them for roof maintenance, I'm looking at a 3000 dollar hit just to move them out of the way. And the 6% doesn't compound. When i dot the math, long term i make more and have lower risk paying for the grid.

My roof is 15 years old, btw.


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Old 07-07-2014, 03:36 PM   #67
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Yes, and there is a shut off for gas & electric. The problem, as I understand it, is there is no way to get to the panels to shut them off.

I don't know if firefighters won't spray water until they've verified the power is off or not. And maybe the concerns over solar panels are over-blown. But it would be interesting to ask, and get input from the local FD, no?

-ERD50
Weirdly, the local FD signed off on our solar project. There is a big, red sign on our breaker box with "Warning" and directions for manually shutting off the system. In the advent of a grid power failure, the PV system shuts down. The HOA, the county, the power company, and the FD all had to agree to the system before it could be installed and the latter three had to sign off on the installation before it could operate. I suspect they may have consulted with engineers about just the sort of problem you envision.

Re: Solar City
My parents used SC for their house in Tucson. The company is so busy that they had quite a wait time.
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Old 07-07-2014, 05:32 PM   #68
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The FD is likely checking the FD Roof Access Requirements. This covers things like weight load for the type of roof (e.g. 5 lb/sq ft, max 40 lbs at any support point), max height of panels above roof (18"), min 3' clearance from roof ridge for FD smoke ventilation operations, roof slope and access pathways (2:12 or greater slope requires 3 ft access pathways, some other req. based on roof geometry). They'll also check of there is a battery backup, disconnects, and hoe easily the panels can be tarped.

Building permits and inspections... Fun for everyone! (or not)
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Old 07-07-2014, 06:41 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by AllDone View Post
Weirdly, the local FD signed off on our solar project. There is a big, red sign on our breaker box with "Warning" and directions for manually shutting off the system. In the advent of a grid power failure, the PV system shuts down. The HOA, the county, the power company, and the FD all had to agree to the system before it could be installed and the latter three had to sign off on the installation before it could operate. I suspect they may have consulted with engineers about just the sort of problem you envision.

Re: Solar City
My parents used SC for their house in Tucson. The company is so busy that they had quite a wait time.
It's good that they were involved.

I suspect that one of the things they were checking was that the system would shut down or isolate itself, and not back-feed the grid in a power outage and kill a lineman making repairs. That's pretty much the default for a grid-tie system, but I suppose they need to check that you didn't also have some battery backup that could create that kind of hazard (that would require a transfer switch).

RE: In the advent of a grid power failure, the PV system shuts down.

Well, yes and no... that's the potential problem.

Yes, the inverters stop delivering power into the grid and into your home wiring if the grid is down. But unless you have micro-inverters attached to each panel, the panels are still putting out DC power, and the DC lines running to the inverters are 'live', and still represent some hazard. With micro-inverters at each panel, the power would stop at that point. Since they need to be weather-tight, I would think the risk to a fire hose would be pretty small with local micro-inverters, the 'live' area would be pretty well contained.

-ERD50
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