Are illegal immigrants a serious problem or not?

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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Art said:
But you are, seriously, an ignoramus and an idiot, and these ideas, and the massive volume of references to support them, are beyond you, which is why I quit copying and pasting after 10 minutes.
Art, let me dispense with my usual subtlety & sarcastic humor for a few minutes.

You need to lighten up. You can make a powerful point without having to resort to vocabulary like that. The fact that you feel the need to resort to those words tends to reduce the validity of whatever point you're trying to make. Others have been trying to demonstrate that with their responses to your posts but you keep taking the bait instead of letting your persuasive writing stand on its own merits.

Art said:
Run silent, run deep, ensign... just try not to hit those seamounts!)
Nice touch with one of the worst American submarine disasters in decades. I'm sure your sentiments are shared by MM2 Ashley's family, friends, & shipmates.

As far as I can see from your posting record, you're in the same company with Ted, EdTeach, *****, & Hyperborea. Good talking with you, and you have a nice life now.

Dory, it's time for you to do the moderator thing!
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Nords said:
Nice touch with one of the worst American submarine disasters in decades.  I'm sure your sentiments are shared by MM2 Ashley's family, friends, & shipmates.

Can't let you get away with that one, Nords.

There was NO disrespect intended towards the victims of that disaster. Period. I have TREMENDOUS respect for ALL present and former members of our military (including you, despite your occasionally brain-dead posts), especially those killed or injured while serving, and I'm sorry if you misunderstood my point. It was meant as nothing more than a jibe at your silly previous post, demonstrating your shoot first, aim second attack style- nothing else.

Now, you have a nice life too, Nords.
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Hmmmm

Might be an age thing - I've observed sugar doughnuts mellow out - spy guys (that other agency), DEA, and FBI types on govt pensions who have retired to certain doughnut shops. Agrument is a form of entertainment - me being the 'token liberal'.

And we've never been thrown out for being too loud or vulgar - ten years and counting.

Heh, heh, heh - some drugs are legal AND don't require a prescription.

Sugar doughnut anyone?

Being a liberal and in the minority - I go for the creme, custard, and jelly filled pastry.
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Nords said:
Art, let me dispense with my usual subtlety & sarcastic humor for a few minutes.

You need to lighten up.  You can make a powerful point without having to resort to vocabulary like that.  The fact that you feel the need to resort to those words tends to reduce the validity of whatever point you're trying to make.  Others have been trying to demonstrate that with their responses to your posts but you keep taking the bait instead of letting your persuasive writing stand on its own merits.

Nords, you're right about this. I'll work on it.
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

C'mon guys. How about cooling it, huh?
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Art said:
Let's fire the Border Patrol, Close the INS, and declare our borders open to all!
Well, I may not favor that idea but . . .

Today, people from South of the Border will risk their lives to walk across miles of barren dessert. They will pay dangerous coyotes hundreds of dollars to take them accross the border. The coyotes are dangerous men who are known to double-cross and kill many of their customers. People believe that living and working in the US will improve their lives so much that they are willing to take these risks and pay these fees. There is much to be said about such motivation. One solution to the illegal alien issue is to make it easier and cheaper to cross the border legally. Let's bring these highly motivated people over here to work. And by making it legal, we will insure that we know who they are, where they are and that they pay appropriate taxes, social security, medicare . . . :D :D :D
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Lets just buy up all the shoe companies in mexico. No shoes, I figure they arent going to be able to make that border crossing.

Problem solved. Now all I need to do is secure a few million in grants from anti immigration PACs, do a 'study', publish some favorable results, and back to early retirement a little more flush with cash.
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

I live in Arizona and have spent quite a bit of time hiking and working in the dessert on both sides of the US-Mexican border.  There is about 1000 miles of border in California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.  Much of that border is nothing more than a 3-strand barbed wire fence in the middle of many miles of barren dessert.  

People who talk about "closing the border" or about increasing inforcement to "stop illegal crossing" are naive and misguided.  The cost of an impenetrable barrier would be astronomical.  (If you don't believe this, we can go through the process of estimating cost and prove this very quickly).

So . . . here are some questions to ponder:  

How does anyone know how many illegal aliens cross our border each year?

How does anyone know how much crime, disease, etc. these people are responsible for?

How much critical labor are they responsible for?

How does this ratio of good/bad effects compare to any other particular part of our population?

What percentage of these illegals would we need stop in order to satisfy the people who think they are harmful?

How much would it cost us to reduce the crossings to acceptable amounts?

If someone were really serious about illegal immigration, it seems to me that they would need (and want) to answer the questions above.  Then we could have a legitimate conversation.   :D :D :D
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

- SG said:
People who talk about "closing the border" or about increasing inforcement to "stop illegal crossing" are naive and misguided.  The cost of an impenetrable barrier would be astronomical.

So why, exactly, do you not support the removal of the Border Patrol and the opening of our borders to everyone?
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Art said:
So why, exactly, do you not support the removal of the Border Patrol and the opening of our borders to everyone?
The Border Patrol does a reasonable job of controling/monitoring commerce. While it's nearly impossible to stop an individual from walking across the border at some remote spot in the dessert, it's not that hard to keep a truck load of contraband from driving across. :D :D :D
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

So the Border Patrol should focus only on vehicles but anyone on foot should be allowed free access into the country?
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Art said:
So the Border Patrol should focus only on vehicles but anyone on foot should be allowed free access into the country?
Not exactly, but pretty close. I'm not concerned about vehicles. But I am a little concerned about what they can carry. We have laws and regulations that protect us from faulty, unsafe and unhealthy products. It costs manufacturers money to comply with those laws and regulations. If we don't keep faulty, unsafe and unhealthy products from crossing the border, what's the point of the regulations and laws?

But I am not very concerned about individuals crossing the border to find work, prosperity and a better life. The only reason most of these people are illegal is because our laws are arbitrarily written to define them as such. If we outlawed toilet paper, then only outlaws would have toilet paper. If we outlaw crossing the border to obtain gainful employment, then . . .

Does the idea of making legal border crossing cheap and easy bother you?

Why?

:D :D :D
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

- SG said:
How does this ratio of good/bad effects compare to any other particular part of our population?

Yeah, like (other) low income people...
or obese people.

I know a few folks who are illegal and are better 'Americans' than many americans I know.
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

JB said:
Yeah, like (other) low income people...
or obese people.

I know a few folks who are illegal and are better 'Americans' than many americans I know.


Yeah and then there are the few who shoot cops and then cross the border never to be seen again....
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

- SG said:
Does the idea of making legal border crossing cheap and easy bother you?

Why?

Yes, I believe the borders must be enforced by any means necessary. I am not opposed to legal immigration. I am opposed to illegal immigration.

Why?

Well, the contraband that concerns you enough to check vehicles can easily be carried by people on foot. But this is not my main concern.

Mexican and Central American street gangs and other violent criminals in LA and now all over the US are made up largely of illegals. We have enough home-grown predators- we don't need to import any more.

Diseases we wiped out or never had are coming back due to illegals. We have enough disease- we don't need to import it.

Illegal aliens strain our medical system. And our education system. And our criminal justice system. And our military's training operations by accidentally crossing through training areas.

Google: Illegal aliens and health care (or crime, or education) and read as much as you want about it. My first article on this post has info from sources such as:

Dr. Laurence Nickey, Director of the El Paso Health District
Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, Spring 2005
Congressional Testimony from the American Medical Association, 1991
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

- SG said:
Does the idea of making legal border crossing cheap and easy bother you?

LEGAL border crossing should be as cheap and easy as possible consistent with effective public health/criminal background/national security screening.

ILLEGAL border crossing should be made impossible- by any means necessary.
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Not with my tax money!

I propose we fire the Border Patrol - stiff em on any pension's.

Shoot the Buffalo - worked on the Plains Indians by starving them onto the reservation.

Sooo - we pay bounty for any employer who hires illegals - enough so an alien can ER in the country of his choice

Confiscate everything the employer has - like we do drug dealers and sell at public auction - use the money to cut taxes - throw them in jail with the druggies - then rent them out as dirt cheap labor - to defray taxes.

Bring back vagrancy laws for the street gangs - if they can't produce a valid W-2 or post bond as independantly wealthy - throw them in the slammer with the  dealers/employers and rent them out for cheap labor also.

Heh, heh,heh - this be a before sugar doughnut post.

This is America - we need to run this thing profitably.
BTY - Does the Chinese army still run businesses with prison labor?

Perhaps we can send some MBA's over to copy the business model.
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

UncleMick, I like your ideas... they fall under the category of "by any means necessary".

But rather than firing the Border Patrol, couldn't we just put them in charge of managing criminal employers and captured illegal aliens?
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

unclemick2 said:
Sooo - we pay bounty for any employer who hires illegals - enough so an alien can ER in the country of his choice

Confiscate everything the employer has - like we do drug dealers and sell at public auction - use the money to cut taxes - throw them in jail with the druggies - then rent them out as dirt cheap labor - to defray taxes.

Bring back vagrancy laws for the street gangs - if they can't produce a valid W-2 or post bond as independantly wealthy - throw them in the slammer with the  dealers/employers and rent them out for cheap labor also.

This is America - we need to run this thing profitably.
BTY - Does the Chinese army still run businesses with prison labor?

Perhaps we can send some MBA's over to copy the business model.

UncleMick, why do you call yourself a liberal? No capisce.
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

I think he might be pulling your leg... :eek:
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

ME!!!!!! - pull somebodies leg? Speak tongue in cheek?

Naw!

I'm only thinking of myself - throwing employers in jail and impoverishing law enforcement types - will only improve the conservative/liberal ratio for future debates at the doughnut shop.

"Conservative who's been thrown in jail" and all that stuff.

Heh, heh - dead silence on the "liberal who's been mugged."


PSSST - Do I earn points toward my Curmudgeon merit badge:confused:
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Have Funds said:
I think he might be pulling your leg...  :eek:

Uncle Mick can be pretty subtle. Part of his charm :)

JG
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

I'm new here- thanks to all for the help. Now I capisce.
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Art:

I believe your posts are a public service. 

We all have a stake as citizens to comply with the rule of law in this country or risk loosing everything.  Its personal to me, as a lawyer.  I did all the legal paperwork, hearings and assorted legal processes so that my spouse, a legal immigrant, who was here by way of academic sponsorship to teach at a major Med School here in the US, could gain US citizenship.

She has an MD/Phd (Bio-Chem) educated in Poland (MD) and Russia (Phd).  She has something to offer any nation and could immigrate into virtually any western country on merit. I had to endure five years of INS incompetence, and even though I am a lawyer with plenty of trial and Adminstrative law experiance, it was a nightmare out of a Frans Kafka plot.  She was naturalized in a ceremony in the federal district Court before a Judge I knew personally from my trial practice, in which the majority of the new American citizens were from the professions, most of them from India, Canada, Asia, and Western and Eastern Europe.  Based on my experiance (I have since done several pro-bono citizenship applications for foriegn professionals seeking US residency) most of those that initially comply the US system of immigration laws are also the ones that will support it and are the type of citizens this country requires to mainatin its technical and economic viability.  I want immigrants from countries with great educations and skill sets that respect the law, citizens from cultures that win Nobel prizes, not revolutions against the latest junta.   


The illegals streaming in (mainly from Mexico) are for the most part poorly educated will become a net burden on the country for at least two generations.  I lived in Mexico, speak perfect spanish, and am of latin extraction, so this is not from a racist view.  Mexico and the US have been in a war for land in the southwest for two centuries.  Illegal immigration by Mexicans is an effective long term strategy of Mexican occupation to advance reconquista of US resources.  It's presented as a refuge issue, and sold as 'those poor' campasinos willing to stream across the Arizona desert just for a living wage.  THIS IS AN INVASION FROM MEXICO, NOT A HUMANITARIAN EVENT.  WE DESERVE THE RIGHT TO SELECT WHO COMES INTO THE UNITED STATES, NOT VICENTE FOX OR SOME OTHER THIRD WORLD DESPOT. I have meet Phds in Poland that have legally applied to immigrate into the US and can carry their weight the day they are allowed to work here.  They can not get a visa, while the low caste Mexicans (and the rest of latin America) are rewarded for braking the law and overloading the welfare systems.  They are a net burden, despite the cheap source of low skilled labor.

ANY OF YOU WHO SEEK TO REWARD ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION WITH THE RIGHTS OF CITIZENSHIP, you are wrong, wrong wrong to suggest that rewarding illegal immigration is somehow offset by the hard working vigor of Mexicans.  There are millions in Asia, Russia, and many other places who deserve the same oppurtunity to apply and be fairly considered for legal immigration. 

If we are to allow immigration it should be based on merit, the process of law, and NOT the corruption and CULTURAL/TERRITORIAL war underway on boths sides of the US/Mexican border.

NOW, PLEASE FLAME THIS POST.   ILLUSTRATE YOUR VALUES AND ETHICS FOR ALL TO EXAMINE. 

   
 
Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Thanks, Lex.

You're a brave man to post such a brutally honest message here. The truth in your post will be too much for many posters here to tolerate. You will be called a liar, a racist, and worse. Don't let it bother you. Consider the source. This is, for the most part, a politically liberal website.
 
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