Are illegal immigrants a serious problem or not?

[Art]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline On to the next issue -- ta ta and best wishes to all! Caroline

Caroline, I can lead a horse to water but I can't make it drink.

I've posted PLENTY of cost stats from the AMA, etc. I referred you to the google keywords for those who want to read more.

I can't be bothered to retype what I've already posted because you are too lazy to read what's already posted.

Have a nice 4th. Have a beer or two. And read the posts before you make such assinine complaints.

[sgeeeee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Well, let's see. Maybe we relocate our troops in Europe to bases on the border since we don't need to worry about a Soviet tank attack anymore.

So you see the threat posed by people crossing the US-Mexican border as equivalent to the threat once posed by the Soviet nuclear capability. That explains a lot about your passion. But I think your attitude is probably viewed as alarmist and misguided by a lot of people. The destructive capability of nuclear bombs was verifiable and real. The rhetoric of the Soviet Union during the cold war was clearly antagonistic and aimed at the West. The Mexican men I've met crossing the border were not nearly as scary. They may have been thirsty, but they were not explosive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Maybe we fly unmanned drones 24/7 with the appropriate sensors to detect human traffic. Maybe we flood the border with those cheap motion detector sensors we have now. Don't know what it will cost. Don't care what it will cost. As long as it gets done- preferably before the next 9/11.

Drones don't work without human monitors and deployable force on the ground. Cheap motion sensors over a 1000 mile border will be sending false positives for every deer, bobcat, coyote and blowing tumblweed in the dessert.

You may not care what it costs, but that only proves you are irrational. I think we've brought this discussion to the point I had hoped we might reach. You have no rational plan. You only have irrational fears. I think it is unrealistic of you to believe that most Americans would be willing to act on your irrational fears by spending billions of dollars of their money.

[Art]

Quote:

Originally Posted by - SG So you see the threat posed by people crossing the US-Mexican border as equivalent to the threat once posed by the Soviet nuclear capability.*

No. Not at all. But we don't need as many troops in Europe as we once did, so we might want to relocate them here where we can make better use of them. Military training is often interrupted by illegal aliens wandering across our training ranges- troops can be justifiably used to prevent this. I do see wide open borders as not only a health and crime issue, but also a national security issue.

And for those who insist that I do a cost benefit analysis for you, why don't YOU start by telling ME the cost of the next big terrorist attack on the U.S., which most analysts think is pretty much a given.

And if you know for a fact that the attack will not come from enemy agents across our totally exposed 1,000 mile open border, maybe you can tell us how you arrived at this conclusion.

[Art]

Reprinted from NewsMax.com

Monday, July 4, 2005 5:44 p.m. EDT
Hillary Clinton Blasts President Bush on Border Security

2008 presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton is blasting President Bush for lax enforcement of the nation's immigration laws, saying the White House has dropped the ball on border security and put the country at risk for another major terrorist attack.

In a statement posted to her newly revamped official Senate Web site, Clinton charges: "The Bush administration is failing to meet what should be the basic requirements of immigration policy: continuing our American tradition of welcoming immigrants who follow the rules and are trying to build a better life for their families, while strengthening national security in a post 9-11 world."

In a potentially potent bid to win Red State support in 2008, the former first lady is playing the role of tough cop:

"Our current immigration laws need to be reformed," she urges. "We need a better solution to the question of illegal immigration which recognizes the conflict between the need to enforce the law, and the reality that too many employers are using undocumented workers today."

Clinton says that while "this administration has failed to provide the resources to protect our borders, or a better system to keep track of entrants to this country ... I welcome the addition of more border security."

She pins blame for the failure directly on the Oval Office, saying, "President Bush refused to provide the necessary funding in his Fiscal Year 2006 proposed budget sufficient to hire all of the border patrol agents that had been authorized."

"Fortunately," Clinton adds, "during the Senate’s debate on the budget in March of 2005, we passed an amendment to provide increased funding for border patrol agents."

Then, in a none-too-subtle dig at GOP foot-dragging on the immigration issue, Clinton says: "I hope the Republican leadership will support the maintenance of this funding, to provide the resources necessary to properly protect our borders."

[dory36]

NewsMax.com Re-print Information

NewsMax will allow up to 50 words of any NewsMax.com article to be reprinted, as long as the following conditions are met:

Each brief:*

* * 1) Has a dateline of NEWSMAX.COM - as in the following example from an Inside Cover report:

NEWSMAX.COM -- The Washington based public interest law firm Judicial Watch isn't particularly thrilled with reports that Attorney General Janet Reno will tap former Missouri Sen. John Danforth to lead a new probe into the 1993 Waco massacre...*

* * 2) has a hyperlink to the original article from NewsMax.

http://newsmax.com/reprints.shtml

[unclemick]

If anyone is under the illusion that we don't have full survellience of our southern border - forget it.

When Homeland Security and the lawyers work out who(inter agency protocal and budgets) needs to know - they will know. The military labors under 'certain legal restrictions'.

Lets just say - they are working on it - at best possible speed.

Certain things - we don't need to know - nor do I want to know. Drugs and CT - have higher priority I believe - but I don't know that.

[Art]

Quote:

Originally Posted by unclemick2 If anyone is under the illusion that we don't have full survellience of our southern border - forget it.

UncleMick, I'd ask you how you know this, but I assume that if you told me you'd have to kill me.

I don't doubt it's true, though, which obviously makes the job of rounding up illegal border-crossers that much easier once we decide to do so.

I assume the military restrictions you refer to involve 'posse comitatus'. But there's no law to prevent our troops from securing our military training ranges from people unwittingly wandering around on them thereby disrupting bombing, tank and artillery live fire training. And there's no law preventing the sharing of surveillance to expedite BP arrests if national security is involved.

This notion that we don't have the ability to protect out borders in a cost effective way seems completely absurd to me. I don't buy it for a minute.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline Logical argument in general can't be expected to work either -- this thread STARTED with a lament about illegals brining in disease but has now moved, without solving the orignial complaint, to 9/11.

Hey, its worked for others...when your arguments dont hold any water, bring up 9/11.

By the way, I have grave concerns about terrorists being snuck into the country, along with weapons, possibly WMD's. But if we spend billions to 'close the border' and keep them dang brown people at home they'll simply wrap the terrorists and WMD's in a bale of pot or brick them up in coke and bring them in that way. Unless we go soviet and blockade all entry and exit, at an astronomical cost, they'll get in. Heck, a few thousand sleepers may be here already.

At that point, bin laden and his boys can sit back and spark one up. Their job is done. They've cost the US enormous amounts of money and caused severe restrictions in movement in and out of our free, open country. And they didnt have to do a thing other than make a video every now and then and yell "booga booga booga!" into the camera.

The transition to 9/11 and terrorist scare tactics that we really cant do anything about makes perfect sense. Not one shred of evidence demonstrating clearly that there is a threat from the brown people to health care, crime or anything else has been made. Just a lot of propaganda from people who started off with "I dont like me them brown people...oh look, something that helps tell me WHY they're bad so I can go tell other people".

Riddle me this one batman...if people at any kind of high level in the govt, healthcare, crime or any other org really has any concern about the brown menace, why hasnt anyone done an economic study to show the impact of 'stopping' illegals or a clearcut report from a truly unbiased source that explains the 'threat'?

Its pretty easy...severe penalties to employers for hiring illegals; you must show a valid identification card before receiving healthcare from a public US institution; minor change to laws to allow and encourage, if not press, the local police to turn over illegal aliens involved in organized crime to the feds. About a half an afternoon for congress.

The answers are evident to those who dont already have their mind made up about the 'problem'.

[Art]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notth Its pretty easy...severe penalties to employers for hiring illegals; you must show a valid identification card before receiving healthcare from a public US institution; minor change to laws to allow and encourage, if not press, the local police to turn over illegal aliens involved in organized crime to the feds.* About a half an afternoon for congress.

I agree with most the above as part of the total package- but health care workers in this country WILL NOT (nor should they be forced to) check on patients' resident status when seriously sick/injured people are admitted to ER/trauma centers. The American people wouldn't tolerate it either. Nor would they tolerate a resuscitated kid and his illegal parents turned over by medical people to the INS. It AIN'T gonna happen. Back to the drawing board.

I do agree that port security is a nightmare. I don't agree that the answer is to leave our borders unprotected.

And as for the idea that we have no idea of the health care costs of illegal aliens from reputable sources, AGAIN I'll re-post just one reference that I've already posted (there's a LOT more that I've already posted from racist, tabloid sources like the American Medical Association, etc. for those with an open mind. Google has SO much more (MANY gov. reports in pdf for anyone who cares):

"By default, we grant health passes to illegal aliens. Yet many illegal aliens harbor fatal diseases that American medicine fought and vanquished long ago, such as drug-resistant tuberculosis, malaria, leprosy, plague, polio, dengue, and Chagas disease."

“What is unseen is their [illegal aliens’] free medical care that has degraded and closed some of America’s finest emergency medical facilities, and caused hospital bankruptcies: 84 California hospitals are closing their doors.”

—Madeleine Peiner Cosman, Ph.D., Esq. “Illegal Aliens and American Medicine,” Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, Spring 2005

Yes, I know, she's a lying racist, and this publication is a tabloid.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

keep banging that drum art.

Nobody knows whether a person coming into the ER and getting treatment is illegal or not, so theres no way to count.

Any 'reports' you come up with are therefore, guesses. But then again you've avoided this particular problem with your 'stat gathering' with the usual consistency. To be truthful though, I only read about 1 in 5 of your posts, so maybe you did address it.

There *are* plenty of decent reports on why healthcare is so expensive, and you'd find them if you didnt start off looking for how illegal aliens might be the problem. Unmeasurable illegal alien health care isnt even in the top 5. Why dont you use your superior google skills to find out what they are and rail on those a while, rather than minority problems If and when you do find a good list of real healthcare problems, do be sure to post the entire copyrighted text here. And throw in a few 'nazi' references as well, just to round things out.

As far as asking for ID when you come into a hospital...they already ask you for insurance, whats the big deal? Either you have something identifying on your person or someone you know has to come down and bring it. Or you get minimal stabilizing care until that happens.

Or do you have some other invented statistics that show that the percentage of illegal aliens coming in require immediate trauma care?

[Art]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notth And throw in a few 'nazi' references as well, just to round things out.

What Nazi references? What are you talking about?

"Unmeasurable illegal alien health care isnt even in the top 5. "

Says who?

[HFWR]

Observation: With just a little bit more diligence, we could probably have prevented 9/11; there were so many f***-ups, it's hard to count. Not invented here, we don't want no stinkin' bad news, etc. No new agencies or laws were necessary; just people and agencies doing their jobs.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art What Nazi references? What are you talking about?

Here you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art I see. Kinda like how Nazi Germany was more tolerant of Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan than the mean, old US was? Is that it, Honkie?

And you said it a second time in another post, which I already quoted elsewhere. Of course, that was a cut and paste that you probably didnt see. I guess if you cut and paste materials that include inflamatory or ridiculous stuff and dont even take the time to read it before posting it, the credibility of that material is pretty dang good...hmm?

Quote:

"Unmeasurable illegal alien health care isnt even in the top 5. " Says who?

I do.

Top medical issues, not in any particular order:
- Rising insurance costs
- Rising malpractice suits and malpractice insurance
- Rising core healthcare costs
- Excess regulation
- The drug approval process
- Prescription drug costs
- Lack of preventative care
- Lack of evidential medical education and practice
- 20% of patients with chronic illnesses that are not properly managed taking up 80% of insurance costs

I cant find a way to fit 'illegal alien healthcare' into the above when I cant even measure how big the problem is. Which you again avoided answering.

Hey, didnt you say that you NEVER made a nazi reference? And yet you made two! Liar, liar, pants on fire... Or will you simply claim that you make so many silly statements that you just forgot?

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Have Funds, Will Retire Observation: With just a little bit more diligence, we could probably have prevented 9/11; there were so many f***-ups, it's hard to count. Not invented here, we don't want no stinkin' bad news, etc. No new agencies or laws were necessary; just people and agencies doing their jobs.

True, and the sad part is that not a thing we've done will adequately protect us from a recurrence.

[laurence]

Didn't the 9/11 attackers have legal visas? How would a Berlin wall along the Mexican border help?

[cute fuzzy bunny]

We'd have gotten one of them there brown fellas with the big hats to tell us what was goin' on if we had to beat it out of 'em. Them illegals are all terrorists and all in on it together, dontcha know...

Look out Laurence, he's gonna call you a flip flopper in a second...

[charlie]

TH(not), I like you and respect your opinions even though we differ
at times. I didn't want to jump into this but your repeated references
to illegal immigrants as "brown" people seems off base. Perhaps
it is just me, but I find those references a little offensive ..... I am
not Hispanic but I think they might object to this characterization.

Cheers,

Charlie

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I most certainly dont mean to offend Charlie, I'm actually attempting to make fun of people who are offensive. I was building on laurences question about how mexican immigration has anything to do with 9/11...

Just as an aside, and I swear I havent made her up, my wife is half mexican, as is a good chunk of my in-law family.

I'm about as non-racist as they come, and i'm extremely intolerant of those who are.

By the way, I like you too and dont think we differ much at all. Except maybe those tips and ibonds things Considering on your advice I altered my recent investment change to put a large six figure amount into a fund you recommended, I would say I value your advice quite highly.

[unclemick]

Crap!

You guys tricked me - a lifelong partisan Dem into defending a Republican Adminsitration.

The people who have a day job in the trenches - have not forgotten 9/11 and are working as hard as they can to apply 'lessons learned' and get up the learning curve.

I quit!!!

Back to ER subjects. This is as bad as - 'you don't know my name' - getting me to bite on longneck Dixie beer.

[Art]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notth Hey, didnt you say that you NEVER made a nazi reference?*

You were supposedly going to show me a Nazi reference about this healthcare debate- and you pull something out of context from the China thread?

And then you pull some other bogus Nazi reference out of wherever?

You are very amusing, th.

And it gets better:

"Top medical issues, not in any particular order:
- Rising insurance costs
- Rising malpractice suits and malpractice insurance
- Rising core healthcare costs
- Excess regulation
- The drug approval process
- Prescription drug costs
- Lack of preventative care
- Lack of evidential medical education and practice
- 20% of patients with chronic illnesses that are not properly managed taking up 80% of insurance costs" (Oh, yes... your bogus stat backed up by phony google keywords)

Your list is fake. A lot of it is redundant. You have no data to support any of it.

And I guess the millions of illegal aliens in the U.S. don't get seriously ill, injured, or pregnant at rates (at least) similar to the rest of the population- or if they do- they don't cost us anything.

Keep on keeping on, th.