Avoid corrugated drain pipe!

[JoeWras]

It is a common DYI project around here: improve the drainage around your house. There have been some really nice postings through the years that inspired me.

But I wasn't too interested because I thought I did the work 25 years ago. I was wrong. My lines were non-functional. We had some recent rains that resulted in some serious soggy ground. I'm on a harsh slope, so this confused me. My drainage should have just taken away the water.

I did a test and found my line was 100% plugged. I tried flushing it, but the hose would not go in too far. On the ends, I couldn't see anything, yet I knew something was in there.

Yep. Roots.

These buggers are sneaky and insidious. You can't see them at the end because roots don't like light. So, they clog the middle. How do they get in the middle? Well, the smallest nick from a sharp rock will do it. And if you dare to join a seam, forget it! Game over. Here's a 1" root entering my pipe through an apparent nick I created, or which occurred during a frost heave:

I know it is so tempting to use this stuff. It is easy to work with. It is lightweight. It is flexible so your trenches don't have to be precise. There are a lot of positives.

The negatives are that it is not durable. It is easy to crush. It is prone to a shovel nick or rock nick. And if you live in an area with a lot of trees, then it will be game-over in a few years. And when it clogs, the corrugations make it nearly impossible to run a rod through.

Do use it for above ground situations. It worked great for me under a deck, for instance. It is also good for temporary situations. Don't bury it. OK, maybe if you live in a tree and bush free area, it might be OK. Otherwise, don't do it.

My replacement project is coming along. It is some of the hardest physical labor I've done in years. The area is tight and full of utilities, so I had to carefully hand dig. My soil type is "Ag", which is best described as large gravel with some organic matter thrown in. Whenever the home TV shows or blog articles show such a project, they pick some house with wonderful aerated sandy loam that a spade just falls into. That's not the real world! Not only did I have constant 1" stones, I had plenty of 6" versions too. Oh, and I found the 2 1/2 ft. circular mortar pile, which was 8" deep in the middle. I know where the bricklayers set up shop. It was like an archeological dig.

It takes some work to deal with the rigid pipe, but I think it will be worth it. You'll see I had to angle around a chimney foundation and utility dense area. The D2729 stuff is lightweight (much more so than schedule 40) and works fine as long as you are not running traffic over it. The D2729 also has a tiny bit of play making it easier to work with on long runs. There is also SDR-35 (green stuff) which is somewhere between D2729 and Sch 40. That's an excellent option if you can easily get it. I could not. In the end, the smooth walls will allow for better maintenance that corrugated could never give you.

Here's a picture of my first phase (side yard). Second phase will be in the back where I plan to release this into a new water garden. I'm pretty excited about the idea of the water garden, both to expand my garden skills, and help the environment.

 

[YakGrl]

Roots are evil! I recently had to have the garage floor jackhammered and dug up to repair the main sewer line underneath where a 1 inch root had punctured and grown through it. I'm just lucky they didn't have to go through the bathroom slab.

 

[JoeWras]

Roots are evil! I recently had to have the garage floor jackhammered and dug up to repair the main sewer line underneath where a 1 inch root had punctured and grown through it. I'm just lucky they didn't have to go through the bathroom slab.

Roots see a sanitary sewer as an unlimited buffet. Nutrients! Moisture! I can have it all.

It is unfortunate how many sanitary sewer installations have poor workmanship allowing roots in. It only takes the smallest leak.

Years ago, many places used clay pipe underground for sanitary sewer. The joints were filled with oakum and cement. There really was no hope for these pipes with regard to roots. The tiniest crack would let them in. My dad was a plumber and rodded 100s of these pipes.

 

[ImThinkin2019]

Thank you for posting this info. Based on all the DIY info I've seen, I would have been happy using the corrugated. Glad to know the risks.

 

[Bamaman]

You're right about yards being hard work to dig up.

That's why they have rental yards and Ditch Witch gas powered ditchers.

 

[JoeWras]

You're right about yards being hard work to dig up.

That's why they have rental yards and Ditch Witch gas powered ditchers.

Correct. Highly recommended unless it is running right along a wall or through a utility corridor. I think my original utilities are deep enough to not worry about, although they terminate behind that chimney (gas, electric, communications) and could come near the surface.

The communication lines were either above ground in the ivy, or a few inches under.

 

[JoeWras]

Thank you for posting this info. Based on all the DIY info I've seen, I would have been happy using the corrugated. Glad to know the risks.

It really depends on how many root producing plants you have nearby. This area is heavily wooded.

The corrugated pipe is so much easier to work with, so you have to weigh your risks.

 

[WyomingLife]

This is an interesting thread, thank you.

For water management in the yard, we historically have DIY installed French drains in gravel-filled trenches. French drains in recent decades, of course, typically (but not always) use plastic tubing that intentionally has holes punched in them for water ingress and egress. The concept of using solid-wall tubing, such as PVC, for yard water management is foreign to me. But it looks like you are actually trying to convey the water to a new purpose (a water garden).

We live in a house that is 150 years old. Our sewer line is cast iron. Roots got to it, too. Iron, of course, oxidizes, so that really isn't a helpful analogy.

Call me a cynic, but I think anything that goes into the ground for any purpose will eventually succumb to the forces of nature. And I'm a huge fan of self-installed French drains.

 

[eytonxav]

It's a shame most builders and landscapers use corrugated piping for drainage work. Hard pipe is definitely the way to go to avoid problems in the future.

 

[JoeWras]

For water management in the yard, we historically have DIY installed French drains in gravel-filled trenches. French drains in recent decades, of course, typically (but not always) use plastic tubing that intentionally has holes punched in them for water ingress and egress. The concept of using solid-wall tubing, such as PVC, for yard water management is foreign to me. But it looks like you are actually trying to convey the water to a new purpose (a water garden).

French drains are popular here too. At the home store, you'll see some drilled corrugated pipe covered in a sock with polystyrene peanuts as a barrier. Not a good solution in a root zone. The professional jobs create a very wide berth of various stone sizes, with a hole-drilled hard pipe taking away the water. These work pretty well.

The reason I'm moving water away is because this is a Southern walk out basement. Any water is bad water against this side of the house.

And yes, I'm pretty excited about the rain garden. It will actually capture and hold the water better, before potentially exiting the yard and going to a nearby lake. I'd love to capture as much water as possible.

 

[JoeWras]

Phase 1 is 99% done. Just a little paint and touch up of the old fence at the bottom. (Trenching under it was a bear.)

The field drain captures some of the front yard run off. In heavy rains it is quite a river.

The perennial vinca should fill in fast next year to cover the wound.

 

[HawkeyeNFO]

Thanks for posting. Yep, the corrugated plastic tube is cheap and easy to deal with, but it is weak and likely to get crushed or damaged easily, and thus susceptible to root intrusion. I also don't like that there will always be some standing water inside the tube's corrugations.

PVC is far more costly and is more difficult to deal with, but it is much more durable and avoids the problem of standing water.

In the past few months, I've installed both in my backyard.

edit: If you are curious about what's in the pipes, I recommend getting a cheap boroscope from Amazon. Mine is 20ft long, with adjustable LED and plugs into my android cell phone. I think it cost $16, and it's nice to have a look inside when necessary. I'm going to use it on my dryer vent next, to check whether I need to clean that out.

 

[street]

Great educational, first hand experience thread for all home owners. I have seen that same scenario with waterlines and sewer lines. Roots can ruin a guys day pretty fast.

Good Luck!!

 

[triangle]

I would not be so sure that PVC or other pipe is the right answer. If one is really into this stuff they should check out videos from:
Apple Drains (most of his videos are in Florida, with high water table and sandy soil)
https://www.youtube.com/user/appledrains
French Drain Man (mostly in Michigan)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs09Xm81fnqfuilUKJvKyPw

I have learned things from both channels, but I find French Drain man more informative for my personal situations.

For roof runoff (e.g. gutters), PVC could work but it will be difficult to install for most home owners as it is very rigid, which will become a big negative if there is a chance water will freeze inside. Quality corrugated pipe along with proper installation should work to keep out roots.

French drains need to be wrapped in the proper fabric to keep out mud and sediment but I do not see anyway to avoid nearby trees from eventually gaining access. Unless the trench/drain is slopped enough to keep water out, a tree will find the source of water.

All that said, nice work @JoeWras

 

[CRLLS]

I get it. The appeal of a slick PVC pipe seems to be the ideal surface to move the water. I want to put in an underground drain pipe. In my case, it would drain directly into a concrete drain in my front yard that empties into the city storm drains. I looked into the pros and cons of various materials. In northern climates some installers do not recommend PVC pipe as it succumbs to the freeze and thaw and ground heaves. I don't know it that is true or not. It was just several installers recommendations on the web.

 

[JoeWras]

Ah yes, I'm thinking from a southern perspective. Or at least from a non-deep frost line perspective. This stuff is buried shallow so frost heaving is a real concern.

The corrugated can give in a heave. Just don't have a rock next to it, or it can cut through.

Trade-offs.

We have very little freezing weather that freezes the ground more than a few inches. Our official frost line is 12" for building footers and that kind of thing. In practice, it rarely gets that deep.

 

[6miths]

Another downside is that when rats use this stuff as an expressway they are able to chew through it if they find themselves stuck in it somewhere or just want a convenient exit.

 

[JoeWras]

Another downside is that when rats use this stuff as an expressway they are able to chew through it if they find themselves stuck in it somewhere or just want a convenient exit.

I'm kind of wondering if some critters didn't do that, or at least attempt it, which opened up the small hole that the roots got into.

 

[triangle]

If you watch some of the French Drain Man videos (mentioned above) he talks about some of the topics mentioned in the last few posts. The only caveat with his advice is that he also resells some products, but as-far-as-I-can-tell after watching hours of different projects, it all started because of people reaching out to him for help with purchasing these products. As there is not much variety at HD, Lowes.

To comment on a couple of topics he speculates that rats and similar critters are attracted to the corrugated pipe made from recycled materials. I think he might be joking and is mostly speculating, but I have heard him disparage the quality of corrugated pipe (solid or slotted) made from recycled material that is commonly available at the big box stores (NDS).

He also did a demo using 100 feet of clear corrugated pipe. He stuffed the pipe with pinestraw and leaves, things that might be in one's gutter and enter the underground roof drainage system. He used a garden hose to simulate rain water and showed how water turbulence caused by the undulations of the pipe flushed out all the debris and kept the pipe clean. The pipe was laying on top of the ground making it easier to film and see how the leaves were flushed. Combine this with a distribution box to capture heavy items like shingle grit seems to be best way to build a roof runoff system.

PVC pipe can certainly work, but takes more careful planning IMO.

 

[Badger]

edit: If you are curious about what's in the pipes, I recommend getting a cheap boroscope from Amazon. Mine is 20ft long, with adjustable LED and plugs into my android cell phone. I think it cost $16, and it's nice to have a look inside when necessary. I'm going to use it on my dryer vent next, to check whether I need to clean that out.

You got my attention. I'm having problems with kitchen and shower drains that tend to clog easily and this sounds like a good investment for diagnosing the area of the problem. I have access to a clean out and have tried to use a snake as well as a variety of drain cleaners with marginal results.
I always thought the equipment for sending a camera up the drain pipe or down the access from the roof vent would be expensive and something only affordable for a professional.
I don't know what to look for in buying a boroscope that is waterproof, attaches to an Android phone, is semi rigid, and 20 ft long. Can you give some recommendations and pointers on using it in a drain?


Cheers1

 

[JoeWras]

You got my attention.
...
I don't know what to look for in buying a boroscope that is waterproof, attaches to an Android phone, is semi rigid, and 20 ft long. Can you give some recommendations and pointers on using it in a drain?

Got mine too. Sounds like a potential good gadget to have for the future.

So +1 on the request for more details.

 

[JoeWras]

Phase 2 (back yard) nearly complete. I just need to cover it today, then take a break. The downspouts empty into tailpieces that are not not glued, so they can be lifted for access to maintenance. I'm doing that in lieu of having an ugly clean out.

Phase 3 will be to finish the rain garden at the terminus. Due to slope of the yard, I may instead opt for a cascading loose rock swale. I have a lot of room to disburse the discharge. I also have plenty of rock that I dug up to achieve this.

I think I was nuts to do this. Corrugated pipe is so much easier! Don't avoid it if it works for you, especially if you don't have many roots.

 

[mountainsoft]

I would recommend solid PVC drain pipe with GLUED fittings. I installed a driveway drain years ago with solid pipe, but used slip-fit poly pipe that couldn't be glued. A tree root managed to find an elbow joint and busted it open:

 

[JoeWras]

Wow! I didn't know there was a non-glue version. Yes, yes, glue tightly, as if this were a pipe hanging in your basement ceiling. Any moisture becomes a source for the heat seeking root missiles. Once the invader is inside, it is a metastasizing cancer.

At least with the smooth pvc, you can pull the root out. Not possible with corrugated.

The root busting through the poly elbow is all too familiar with what they did to my corrugated.

The other lesson I learned from this is to perform a yearly maintenance check up. Run a snake (or boroscope) and check for any obstructions or resistance.

 

[mountainsoft]

Wow! I didn't know there was a non-glue version. Yes, yes, glue tightly, as if this were a pipe hanging in your basement ceiling. Any moisture becomes a source for the heat seeking root missiles. Once the invader is inside, it is a metastasizing cancer.

At least with the smooth pvc, you can pull the root out. Not possible with corrugated.

They still sell the corrugated poly drain pipe at Lowes. It's strong, but is strictly a slip fit (the fittings are PVC, but the pipe is polyethylene).

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hancor-4-in-x-10-ft-Corrugated-Solid-Pipe/3523674

I didn't even think about root intrusion when I installed it. Now I wouldn't consider anything but solid glued PVC pipe and fittings. I actually weaved the pipe around and under fir tree root systems further down the line. That may be a ticking time bomb, but so far I haven't had any issues there.

While I was eventually able to pull the root out of the solid pipe, it was NOT an easy job. The roots and mud that built up around them in the pipe created an amazing amount of suction. I grabbed the root with pliers and had to lever it out an inch at a time (destroying the end of the pipe in the process). Thankfully the root didn't break or I would have had to dig up twenty feet of pipe, some of which was right under our new concrete driveway. There were a lot of strange noises as I pulled it out, along with the creepy appearance, it really felt like some kind of alien invader.