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Old 06-20-2019, 08:50 AM   #61
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It is a tough situation to be in. One possible situation not mentioned, although very slim, is that the City manager may end up taking another job somewhere else while DW is hanging on. While not in the public sector, I was in this situation and outcome. It was a big relief when I saw his bags packed. Hanging on as long as DW can endure it, it may resolve itself.

Do you have a solid FIRE plan? This can help DW see the light at the end of the tunnel. This might help her cope with the situation over the short term. In any case, if it is too stressful, she should plan on finding alternative employment. Only she can determine the level of stress she can take.

In either case, if the union is strong, things won't happen in a moment's notice.
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Old 06-20-2019, 09:21 AM   #62
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First, I appreciate the input and information from everyone, even if some of the advice is a bit more aggressive and adversarial than we would pursue.

After speaking with the union rep, my wife has chosen not to pursue a grievance. While I might personally choose a different route, I support her decision. Even the union rep said it would be a long hard battle with no guarantee of a positive outcome. As Teacher Terry said, if they want her out, she is going to be out one way or another. It doesn't make sense to fight to stay in a position where you are not wanted and constantly on guard.

Contrary to some of the comments here, we're not naively sitting back hoping this will all go away on it's own. There is a very real chance this may lead to termination, hopefully not, but that's the likely outcome. In the meantime my wife is doing everything she can to comply with the PIP requirements, and documenting everything. If she is terminated anyway, then she may have grounds for wrongful termination, but we'll cross that if we get there. On the other hand, if this is truly just about a performance issue, complying with the requirements may satisfy the plan and allow her to continue on. We'll see.

As for her pension, it's run by the state, not her employer. I have read through all of the contracts and documentation and it seems to confirm that once she is vested (after 5 years, wife has 30+) the pension is guaranteed even if she is terminated.

I have been running a lot of numbers this week, just in case she loses her job. If she can get even a low paying part time job for the next three years, we should still come out OK in the end.
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Old 06-20-2019, 10:46 AM   #63
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MS did you read your last post, your DW won't file a grievance, is going to sit and see what happens and then maybe if she is fired she has a case for WRONGFUL TERMINATION? talk about the tail wagging the dog. You first post says your DW is a great employee so what is she going to do the make good into the best employee.

I get the feeling reading your last comment that there's more going on here and this PIP might be somewhat justified.

Just curious why you guys think availing herself of rights and rules that are firmly in place for her protection is "aggressive and adversarial"?
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Old 06-20-2019, 11:01 AM   #64
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Kind of repeating myself from post 50, but it's like she's been pushed to the edge of a cliff by her manager, who is standing next to her ready for one final push.

You can file a grievance, which will basically (if is succeeds) move the manager away from her so she can back away from the cliff.

The concern is that the manager will come back and again push her to the edge of the cliff and maybe over, but she's already there, so how could it be any worse? But maybe the manager will realize she can't be pushed around so easy, and he'll go after some other target instead.

We had a PIP system in mega corp. Not sure if it works the same, but I only saw one person survive that.
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Old 06-20-2019, 11:33 AM   #65
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this PIP might be somewhat justified.
I said in my first post that my wife did make a mistake. I never denied there was justification for the PIP, just that it was an overblown response to a minor issue.

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Just curious why you guys think availing herself of rights and rules that are firmly in place for her protection is "aggressive and adversarial"?
It is my wife's decision. She has been there over 30 years and knows the dynamics of the office. She has seen the outcome of others who have filed grievances and the outcome has never been positive or productive.

After 30+ years I suppose we have lost our desire to fight situations like this. We are planning to retire in a few years anyway, so it seems pointless to fight to stay in a position if they truly want her gone. Winning for the sake of staying in an unpleasant work environment is no win at all.

In the end we are the ones that have to live with our decisions, good or bad, right or wrong.
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Old 06-20-2019, 11:40 AM   #66
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MS, you guys are going through a lot and at the end of day, your DW might just do better outside of that work environment. I hope things work out ok, yet I hate to see the bully win. Until people stand up for themselves nothing will change.
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Old 06-20-2019, 07:42 PM   #67
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I’ve never seen any employee come out of a PIP on a positive note. Even if your wife meets all the requirements, she and the manager will now have a soured relationship that can be hard to overcome and create more strain in the workplace.

My recommendation is that your wife take control of this situation by finding a new job now. It is much easier to find a job while employed than after you’ve been terminated. No new employer wants to hire someone who was fired, regardless of the reason for termination. When any prospective employer asks why she is changing jobs, her response is “after 30+ years, I need a change”. No one will think twice about it. If she waits to job search until she is fired, she has to lie about her departure and risk them finding out the truth. Never a good position to be in.
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Old 06-20-2019, 08:14 PM   #68
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I never denied there was justification for the PIP, just that it was an overblown response to a minor issue.
I wonder what else is going on here. As a manager of a staff of 9, I had several with performance issues. The job was remote and required commuting by helicopter, and it was hard to find competent employees. I let some of the performance issues drag on far too long. I had to complete the PIP process two times. After going through the process, I learned two things:

1) The employer uses the process to mitigate the risk of being sued for wrongful termination.
2) Someone who enters the process usually has significant performance issues. They will not improve enough to survive the process.

I hope in your wife's case, she's in the right, but in the end it may not matter. Document everything, CYA.
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Old 06-20-2019, 08:45 PM   #69
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Someone who enters the process usually has significant performance issues.
I don't know what to say. The PIP makes it sound like this has been an ongoing problem, but in 30 years this is the first I've heard of it. My wife has received numerous employee awards, has been promoted many times, and is well liked by everyone she works with at all levels in the organization. I don't know how anyone could be more dedicated to their work than she is. Maybe I'm just biased, but that doesn't sound like an employee with performance issues.
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Old 06-20-2019, 09:06 PM   #70
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If you have any thought of pursuing a wrongful termination lawsuit, the time to hire a lawyer is NOW! And yes, they will fire her. When she gets fired, file for Unemployment Compensation no matter what her employer tells her about her eligibility for benefits. Get the paperwork in immediately and if (when) her claim is denied, you can fight from there.
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:49 AM   #71
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Mountainsoft, I know this is difficult, but why not at least talk this through with a good employment attorney now? The attorney can give you and DW advice on the best approach and how to protect DW as best as possible.

If it were me, I would definitely hire the attorney now, and I would find a new job ASAP. I agree with others that PIP’s are a process used by employers to get rid of someone in a legally correct manner. Usually once an employee goes onto a PIP, the situation is not truly salvageable.

I don’t know much about unions and grievance processes but I think an investment in a good employment attorney would be a very prudent move at this point. Best case, the attorney helps DW keep her job. Worst case, the attorney helps DW get the best severance benefits possible. Win-win for you and DW either way.
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Old 06-21-2019, 04:48 AM   #72
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The two of you need to make protecting her pension a priority. Right now things are tangled and ugly, but in a few years it will be history. As a former manager, I am seeing "good past performance," "management not going through all the proper steps," and "Union rep says she has a case.".

Stand and fight! The managers may run scared. If not, what has she lost? And try to share the caregiving so she can focus on regaining her good work reputation.

Good luck.
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Old 06-21-2019, 05:10 AM   #73
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The two of you need to make protecting her pension a priority. Right now things are tangled and ugly, but in a few years it will be history. As a former manager, I am seeing "good past performance," "management not going through all the proper steps," and "Union rep says she has a case.".

Stand and fight! The managers may run scared. If not, what has she lost? And try to share the caregiving so she can focus on regaining her good work reputation.

Good luck.
Spot on. Fighting a PIP is distasteful, and stressful, for the employee.....but it's not fun for management either. With only 5 years to originally planned retirement, OP's spouse could survive this if not full 5 years, but maybe 2 or even 3. That would make retirement finances that much better. And with a Union rep, and presumably an attorney, spouse doesn't have to do most of that stressful work in fighting the PIP. Pension benefits are way too important to blithely not fight the PIP.
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Old 06-21-2019, 07:06 AM   #74
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I don't know what to say. The PIP makes it sound like this has been an ongoing problem, but in 30 years this is the first I've heard of it. My wife has received numerous employee awards, has been promoted many times, and is well liked by everyone she works with at all levels in the organization. I don't know how anyone could be more dedicated to their work than she is. Maybe I'm just biased, but that doesn't sound like an employee with performance issues.
Ummm...has she been medically evaluated recently?

My mom died from a form of dementia that strikes age 45 - age 55.

Mom was officially diagnosed around age 50.

Saw the same happen to the (female) assistant controller at the Fortune 500 company where I was working at the time...she was mom's age as well.

From reading online support groups, the above form of dementia seems to disproportionately affect females.

A medical problem might be the reason for any sudden performance issues.
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Old 06-21-2019, 07:23 AM   #75
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Spot on. Fighting a PIP is distasteful, and stressful, for the employee.....but it's not fun for management either. With only 5 years to originally planned retirement, OP's spouse could survive this if not full 5 years, but maybe 2 or even 3. That would make retirement finances that much better. And with a Union rep, and presumably an attorney, spouse doesn't have to do most of that stressful work in fighting the PIP. Pension benefits are way too important to blithely not fight the PIP.
+2. Beyond the issue of self-protection, filing a grievance could deter management from trying to force out other senior employees with unwarranted performance plans (assuming it is unwarranted). The grievance procedure is written into the workplace contract for a reason, to protect workers from unfair management practices. If you think your wife is being treated unfairly, it would seem to be a justifiable action. Moreover, I'm no lawyer, but I would expect that a grievance on the record would help support any future unfair termination suit.
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Old 06-21-2019, 08:20 AM   #76
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I agree with getting a employment lawyer. Yes it’s your wife’s decision but I would definitely talk to her about it. Somehow you will get through the next 5 years regardless of what happens but the pension is priceless.
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Old 06-21-2019, 09:53 AM   #77
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Spot on. Fighting a PIP is distasteful, and stressful, for the employee.....but it's not fun for management either. With only 5 years to originally planned retirement, OP's spouse could survive this if not full 5 years, but maybe 2 or even 3. That would make retirement finances that much better. And with a Union rep, and presumably an attorney, spouse doesn't have to do most of that stressful work in fighting the PIP. Pension benefits are way too important to blithely not fight the PIP.
+100

At this point your wife would not be fighting to keep the job long-term. She would be fighting to protect the pension she spent decades earning.

Never underestimate an employer's capacity or willingness to scr#w you out of what you have rightfully earned. I have seen it happen to others.
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Old 06-21-2019, 11:48 AM   #78
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... your wife needs an attorney experienced in these cases. Age and gender discrimination plus harassment are key issues in these situations. ......
+1 This will signal that she is willing to fight for her job and will be a big thorn in their side unless thay back off and let her finish off her 4 years. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.

Management not following proper procedure in discipling her will also help her cause. Find a bulldog and it may well go away.
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Old 06-21-2019, 12:31 PM   #79
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Right now your DW is presenting herself as a doormat and according you, your DW is presenting one reason after another why she can't/won't pick herself up off the floor and start to ask for proper procedure to be followed.

Is your DW depressed or does she have anxiety issues? The reasoning you guys are following makes no sense, to me anyway. You are on the tracks and the train is coming but don't seem to want to save yourselves.
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Old 06-21-2019, 12:50 PM   #80
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She would be fighting to protect the pension she spent decades earning.
I contacted the retirement system directly:

"A member will not lose their pension due to termination. The pension has already been earned by service credit years and contributions by the employee and employer."
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