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Old 07-23-2020, 08:26 AM   #21
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Perhaps a two pump system could expand the options.
Pump A lifts the water some percentage of the way to a reservoir.
Pump B finishes the job.
As long as Pump A delivers more water than pump B can remove, the reservoir should not have to be so large - e.g. a 55gal rain barrel.
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Old 07-23-2020, 11:10 AM   #22
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100 foot of discharge head is about 44 psi of discharge pressure. I did a quick look online. Cheap gas powered pumps won't produce that much discharge pressure. You can search for "gas powered high pressure pumps" and they have them for sale around $600 - $800.
What flow rate of water do you want? Tell me how many feet above the water the pump will sit, how many gallon per minute of water you want to pump, and how far, and how high above the pump to the discharge, and I can select a pump for you.
Looks like most packaged systems online don't show a pump curve, but we can pick a pump without one.
Looks like most online packages from places like Home Depot are set up to move water from A to B, if they are about the same level. Probably things like pumping out a swimming pool. Centrifugal pumps are good at moving high volumes, not as good at lower flow and high pressure.

Yes, that 100-ft head is a big deal. I have never had a need to pump water that high, and the only experience I have is with a 1-HP submersible pump I use to empty out my swimming pool for maintenance work.

When the pool water level is just 1 ft below the lawn where I dump the water, the flow is torrential. At the end when the pool is emptied out down to its deep diving end of more than 10 ft down, the flow comes to a trickle, about the same as a garden hose turned on partially. I doubt that this pump can move water up more than 15 ft.
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Old 07-23-2020, 11:44 AM   #23
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How about this idea ?

How about using a small pump, maybe some fountain pump at the creek , to inject water into a ram pump.

The fountain pump could be solar powered (with a large panel and battery). The ram pump does the 100 ft lifting ?
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Old 07-23-2020, 12:22 PM   #24
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How about this idea ?

How about using a small pump, maybe some fountain pump at the creek , to inject water into a ram pump.

The fountain pump could be solar powered (with a large panel and battery). The ram pump does the 100 ft lifting ?

Years ago I stayed at a friends off-grid cabin that used a ram pump as the sole means of water delivery. I don't know how much lift, but the pump was 'way down there' sitting in a fast moving creek. The water was slowly but surely delivered to a large holding tank high enough above ground to provide gravity pressure to the cabin. The pressure was not great but worked - taking a shower took some patience.
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Old 07-23-2020, 12:59 PM   #25
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Are water rights an issue when pulling water from a creek? In the West it is a real thing.
Water rights east of the Mississippi(due to colonial English and French laws), are different than most of the west (due to Spanish rule). In the east, you can take as much as you want, but cannot disrupt downstream rights. Not so in the west. Coal preparation requires vast amounts of water.

Working underground, we had numerous issues, problems, methods of moving water that created problems for ventilation and transportation. If you have a decent compressor, and can minimize the use of compressor rubber hose for practical matters, I would suggest this type of pump, below. Not highly efficient but will handle your head problem. Use a small discharge hose on pump to make it easier on pump and will give you some pressure at the end of your discharge end. I used thousands of these kinds of pumps over the years to move millions of gallons of water. Use a 5-10' suction hose with a strainer, and if possible mount on a wooden pallet, hang from, or to tie from a tree as it will "walk" unless restrained. Put a valve at the pump to control the compressed air. No worries about shocking anybody or anything.

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...0aAnjTEALw_wcB
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Old 07-23-2020, 03:56 PM   #26
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Water rights east of the Mississippi(due to colonial English and French laws), are different than most of the west (due to Spanish rule). In the east, you can take as much as you want, but cannot disrupt downstream rights. Not so in the west. Coal preparation requires vast amounts of water.

Working underground, we had numerous issues, problems, methods of moving water that created problems for ventilation and transportation. If you have a decent compressor, and can minimize the use of compressor rubber hose for practical matters, I would suggest this type of pump, below. Not highly efficient but will handle your head problem. Use a small discharge hose on pump to make it easier on pump and will give you some pressure at the end of your discharge end. I used thousands of these kinds of pumps over the years to move millions of gallons of water. Use a 5-10' suction hose with a strainer, and if possible mount on a wooden pallet, hang from, or to tie from a tree as it will "walk" unless restrained. Put a valve at the pump to control the compressed air. No worries about shocking anybody or anything.

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...0aAnjTEALw_wcB
Yes, I've used a lot of the double diaphragm pumps through the years. Their discharge pressure is equal to the air pressure supplied to the pump. They are also great at handling solids and mud. I just assumed he wanted a gasoline powered pump. I'll check the air supplied needed for a smaller double diaphragm pump. I suspect they need a pretty good sized compressor to run them.
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Old 07-23-2020, 04:07 PM   #27
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A 1" double diaphragm pump, flowing about 10 gallons per minute of water, supplied with 50 psig air pressure will need about 12 scfm of supply air at that pressure. The pump will put out 50 psig of water pressure which will pump water up 100 feet, neglecting pipe flow losses.

20 gpm of water flow will take about 27 scfm of air flow at 50 psig.

30 gpm of water flow will take about 45 scfm of air flow at 50 psig.
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Old 07-23-2020, 04:11 PM   #28
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A 1" double diaphragm pump, flowing about 10 gallons per minute of water, supplied with 50 psig air pressure will need about 12 scfm of supply air at that pressure. The pump will put out 50 psig of water pressure which will pump water up 100 feet, neglecting pipe flow losses.

20 gpm of water flow will take about 27 scfm of air flow at 50 psig.

30 gpm of water flow will take about 45 scfm of air flow at 50 psig.
The problem with double diaphragm air driven pumps is that they are not very efficient. I just looked at the cost of gas driven air compressors. The cost of the diaphragm pump and a gas driven air compressor is a LOT more than the cost of a high pressure gas driven centrifugal pump.
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Old 07-23-2020, 06:45 PM   #29
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Yes, that 100-ft head is a big deal. I have never had a need to pump water that high, and the only experience I have is with a 1-HP submersible pump I use to empty out my swimming pool for maintenance work. ....
Our well pump is 160' down, water level is 130' (the important number), and it is just 3/4 HP, and can deliver 3~4 GPM at 55PSI (probably more, I think the well is the limit, and probably well over 10 GPM just running open).

Seems a small ~2 HP engine/pump should be able to push that water just fine?

If I recall my physics correctly, you can only 'suck' water up ~ 33', you are limited to atmospheric pressure, you need to 'push' it.

Speaking of atmospheric pressure, one of my favs from one of the P-Funk clan:

Bernie Worrell - At Mos' Spheres



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Old 07-23-2020, 08:07 PM   #30
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If I recall my physics correctly, you can only 'suck' water up ~ 33', you are limited to atmospheric pressure, you need to 'push' it...
We talked about this earlier.

And with mercury which is 13.6 times heavier than water, you can only "suck" up 29.92 in. (0.76 m) of it.

And the inverted column of mercury was first used to measure barometric pressure since the 1600s.

Until this thread, I did not know about the ram pump and the pressurized-air diaphragm pump, having seen and used only the common centrifugal type.

I like it when I learn or see something new to me.

Any other type of pump that people know about?
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Old 07-23-2020, 09:23 PM   #31
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...

Any other type of pump that people know about?
The pump you used must be a different design than these well pumps like mine (for ~ 150' depth)?

Here's a rather quirky but interesting (to me) video - I don't think I knew of this design, looks like a wobble plate drives 2 sets of 3 linked pistons/cylinders from a car A/C compressor? He turns it into an 'engine' of sorts. It's a hack job, just doing it to show he can do it, I got a kick out of it.



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Old 07-23-2020, 09:37 PM   #32
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The pump you used must be a different design than these well pumps like mine (for ~ 150' depth)?

Here's a rather quirky but interesting (to me) video - I don't think I knew of this design, looks like a wobble plate drives 2 sets of 3 linked pistons/cylinders from a car A/C compressor? He turns it into an 'engine' of sorts. It's a hack job, just doing it to show he can do it, I got a kick out of it.



-ERD50

Ah, yes, I forgot about the wobble-plate pump that is common for A/C compressors.

About centrifugal pumps, the construction of the pump rotor or impeller is different between a high-volume flow design like a pool pump and a high-pressure application like a well pump. However, they still work on the same principle. Similarly, the wobble-plate pump is a variation on the piston pump.
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Old 07-24-2020, 04:56 PM   #33
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^^ very interesting! Thanks for posting that.
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Old 07-25-2020, 07:36 AM   #34
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I worked as a mechanical engineer for a specialty chemical company. I can tell you, there are a LOT of different types of pumps!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump
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Old 07-25-2020, 01:29 PM   #35
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Most of the pumps are of the positive displacement type, and being rotary, should have a smooth flow compared to the piston pump. They still work on the same principle though, that of "squeezing" the fluid through a gradually constricting chamber to force it to move against an opposing pressure.

About the ram pump, I looked at Youtube videos of a few builds. One guy said that a ram pump should be capable of a 7:1 lift ratio. I think a 100-ft lift is going to be difficult to achieve with a ram pump, no matter what.
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Old 07-31-2020, 07:19 PM   #36
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Every summer when the grass goes dormant/dead from lack of water I look wistfully at the creek behind the house and ponder the feasibility of pumping water from the creek up a rather steep hill, and a horizontal distance of ~80 yards or so, to water the grass and shrubbery. Then I go online and look at gasoline powered water pumps and sort of realize that what I'd like to do is probably not feasible at a price I'd be willing to pay. I'm guessing (and it's only a wild guess) that the vertical distance up the water would have to travel would be about 100 feet or so.

But how does one go about measuring this exactly? I've searched a bit online but I must not be using the right terms because all the results are completely irrelevant to what I'm looking for.

Also, I have a question about water pump specifications. Suppose a pump's specs say it has a suction head of 25 feet and a vertical head of 100 feet. Is the suction head included in that 100 feet, or will the pump actually pump water a total of 125 feet? (I kinda doubt that, given the way marketers play with numbers, but I had to ask.)

Thanks for all the insight you engineering types can offer. Please write slowly and use one-syllable words...
I was a California licensed Professional Engineer in both Civil and Mechanical. My first take: Pumping water 240 feet horizontal and 100 feet high will likely be more expensive then you think.

First of all, you did not specify your flow requirements. If you have high flow requirements, then the pump cost will be high. Here is a good reference for head losses due to piping length:

https://www.pacificpumpandpower.com/...Loss_Table.pdf

The friction loss table accounts for additional pump head. As you can read, everything depends on the flowrates. Your pump spec state 100 feet of vertical head...but this is likely at a very low flowrate.

Two common mistakes that non-engineers make is assuming there is no friction in both the horizontal and vertical piping and they also assume a pump with a 100 feet of head will have adequate flow.

A pump manufacturer can state that their pump will pump water 100 feet of head....but what they don't tell you is that the flowrate may be 0.01 GPM. You really need the pump manufacturer's pump curve which will tell you the flow rates at different heads.

You are thinking about using a gas operated pump to pump water from a stream. You may need two permits: One permit from the Air Board for the potential air pollution and one permit from the Water Board for the water.

My recommendation: Visit the Public Works department of your county and explain to the county what you are trying to do. They will go over the permits that you will need. At the same time, you can also consult a Public Works engineer "free of charge". I would also consult the county or your neighbor to determine if they have a drinking water well. If the water table is only 10 to 20 feet deep, it may be better to drill a shallow well close to your house.

Technically, as an engineer, I can engineer just about anything a customer wants. However, it is always the cost factor that gets in the way. I suspect this will also be the case.
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Old 07-31-2020, 07:32 PM   #37
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You'll probably want an electric centrifugal pump located at or very near the location of the creek. If the creek is only 80 yards away, a 100 ft elevation difference would mean a really steep slope. IOWs it's steep eneoiugh to measure the elevation change via trig. You could measure the distance downslope (pace it out) and place this as the hypotenuse of a triangle. Then measure the angle downslope from horizontal (use a level and a protractor or a cell phone with app). Apply a little trigonometry (sine(angle) = elevation/hypot) and you have the elevation difference.
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Old 07-31-2020, 08:00 PM   #38
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First, how big is the area to be watered and how much water does it need?

From
https://www.bigsprinkler.com/faq/how...d-1-inch-water
it takes 27.154 gallons of water to provide 1 inch of water to 1 acre. That works out to 6788 gallons for 1 inch on 1/4 acre.

Work out the size of the area to be watered and the amount of water needed each day before you look for a method to move water.

Pump suction numbers are the maximum distance it can pull water. Pump head numbers are the maximum distance it can push water vertically. 1 foot of head is about 0.43psi:
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/p...ure-d_663.html

Pipe flow (gpm/gph) by gravity and under pressure:
https://hy-techroofdrains.com/water-...hrough-a-pipe/

Ram pumps are typically "at the water level" pumps and require a much larger flow than the output they produce - the pumps are about 10% efficient. Be aware that while a ram pump can provide sppreciable lift it requires good flow (ideally a downhill flow) to do that and higher lift means fewer gallons/minute. However, ram pumps typically run continuously and you probably don't need continuous watering so you could store the water in a tank (be careful of the used 250-300 gallon tanks unless you are CERTAIN of what they previously contained). Or you could put a valve on the input of the ram pump and just turn it on when needed. If it only delivers 20 gallons/hour that's 480 gallons/day or 3360 gallons/week which could provide 1/2 of water to 1/4 acre each week.

If there is clear space reasonably near the water source, you might be able to set up a solar powered pump and move the water uphill and across that way. If you have a shaded location for the batteries and winter is warm enough that the pump and batteries can't freeze, it could be left in place all year with a once-a-month check on its status. You need to know how much water you'll be moving and how many daily hours of sun you have (varies monthly:
Untitled Page) to determine the size of the solar system (number & size of panels, charge controller, battery bank size, etc). I'm not in that business but I've designed and built a couple of systems for my own use (small - LED strip lighting in an equipment shed out back. medium - short-term backup power for fridge, lights, furnace during our all-too-frequent but usually short power outages. Think "wait until daylight" power so I'm not out in the dark getting a generator running.) Wild guess at the cost? Under $1000 but that's with you doing the work. If you have a local Craig's List (craigslist.org) you might find good deals on used solar panels ($0.50/watt or $50 for 100 watt panels, $125-150 for 250 watt panels, etc). You will want good batteries and the power to the pump needs to be via a low voltage shutdown protection device to protect the batteries - some of the better solar charge controllers offer that feature.

If you're not confused yet, I can provide more references ;-)

PM me if you have specific questions as I don't check here more than once a week.
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