Christian’s, Atheists, and Morals?

[youbet]

  There always seems to be some major character flaw that the rebirthing process didn't quite take care of. 

Did you really mean to include the word "always" in this statement?  

 

[justin]

Did you really mean to include the word "always" in this statement?

Youbet.

No, I originally intended to put a preface to that statement to the effect of: "What I'm about to say is going to be wrong 30% of the time".

The wiggle word I ended up using was "seems". I stand by the statement. Of course everyone has a flaw of some sort. Even me.

 

[PsyopRanger]

Quick note: I don't debate to argue my POV, I like to hear others POV as it helps me understand people better and makes me more acceptable to others ideas and beliefs.  Please no one take any offense or any comments personally.  

I work in a field where my job is to try to influence foreign relations; I can’t turn it off sometimes.  

I truly appreciate all of these comments

 

[Cal]

ladelfina,

Great links, good stuff thanks.

Do you believe all atheists follow these principles in some form?

Do you think all Christians follow Christian principles? We are talking about people here. There will be variations in all groups - christians, jews, pagans, atheists. There is no "one way" to describe such a large group of people.

 

[youbet]

I'm a born and bred atheist, who appreciates the role of ritual in life. 

Our minister confided in me that he feels many members of our church are there to participate in rituals but do not truly believe in the existence of a specific god, savior, afterlife or anything of the like.  They attend Sunday services, coffee hour, support important charitable activities with time and money and are frequently close friends. They enjoy the comfort of the rituals of church weddings, funerals, Christmas and the like.  And, what's wrong with that?

 

[ladelfina]

what does an atheist use a measure of morality if it is not faith based?

psyop, answering that is a great challenge that I hesitate to undertake. But some thoughts are:

Obviously there are different kinds of atheists (just the way there are different kinds of Christians.. there's Mother Teresa and there's Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker. They would certainly claim to have been reading the same -or similar- Bible, but you'd never know it). I see someone else has pointed this out as I was writing..

I would say a majority are atheist by default.. just by dint of not 'buying in' to existing religious structures, rather than from serious spiritual introspection, maybe going by the more euphemistic term 'agnostic'. Another group I would identify as 'the scientists', who think proof must precede belief. A third group are the 'politicized' who blame religion (often correctly) for wreaking havoc on society, and there I would put the communists, etc. for whom religion isn't just "not their thing" but is to be actively combatted. In my (notoriously left-wing) region of Italy, the local population is known as the 'mangia-preti", the "priest-eaters"!  (Any avowed atheists feel free to jump in here and add to the list...!)

I'm not sure if there's a point in having atheist "rules" for morality. Other religions have rules for morality, yet these are often totally at odds! Many atheists, I imagine, are atheists (or anti-religionists) Exactly Because they feel they don't need external rules to lead a reasonable life and that guidance can naturally come somehow from within, probably in combination with general social mores (rather than morals). If we presume an atheist does not believe in an afterlife, then what matters is how he interacts within his family and society and whether he finds his behavior acceptable within that community, to lead a "good life".


You are kind of asking the unanswerable. No one can agree on "the rules" even when they ARE faith-based..! "Thou shalt not kill" means different things to Catholics and Protestants.. (I have in mind Fr. Berrigan protesting nukes, for example)

Looking back over the Ethical Culture points.. I don't see a whole lot different in them than what others have already professed in a general way: the Golden Rule, "do unto others.." etc. They're just a longer, bloviated version.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

I have seen several families who relied upon 'faith' and religion to raise their kids and as a result had really screwed-up families. I think they were looking for simple answers and a formula from authority figures.

Personally, I react negatively to anything authoritarian and I think a lot of kids naturally have a similar response.

Of course atheists can have morality. And, of course theists can be crooks and murderers. I do not care what people say, only what they do.

Ed,
Who reminds all that I have the copyright on Faith-Based Investing--give me your money and pray you get some of it back.

 

[brewer12345]

Do you think all Christians follow Christian principles? We are talking about people here. There will be variations in all groups - christians, jews, pagans, atheists. There is no "one way" to describe such a large group of people.

Ding  ding ding!!!

Hell, even people allegedly of the same hierarchical religion often disagree.  A few years ago DW and I went to Malta a few years ago.  It quickly became apparent that Maltese Catholics have a very different take on life than mainstream Merkin Catholics.

 

[bongo2]

Christianity does not say that morality originates with God.  Rather, that our knowledge of morality comes from God, but the moral code is separate from God.  This, at least, is the position of Catholic theology.

Robert, do you have a source for this? This is definitely NOT the view of the fundamentalist protestant religions.

Psyop, if you are seriously looking for atheistic sources of objective morality then there are several. As usual the Wikkipedia can give you a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_objectivism. Back when Britannica was free online they had a great section on this, you may want to check out a library. Your comment on laws (i.e. they change) holds for religious laws as well, just with a typically slower time frame.

 

[laurence]

Oddly enough, the atheists that I know are the most trustworthy people that I have met. Not sure why. Maybe it's because they only believe that this is the only life that they will get.

On the other side of the fence, I have had enough dealings on e-bay with the self professed 'born agains'  and most of the deals have went 'south'. When I see an e-bay ad that is sprinkled with 'God Bless' or 'I am a born again - blah blah - you can trust me' it is an instant red flag and I will probably get screwed.

As for myself, I am Christian, but do not believe in 'organized religion' or bringing God into everyday business transactions, reasons for War, Football games or other human trivia.

Many good posts here, C-T's is closest to my view, I see an insidious movement to undermine the seperation of church and state and I loath it. My faith is personal to me, and I'm happy to render to Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar.

My Parents are athiests and semi-regularly go to a Unitarian church, and I think their moral compass is quite well aligned.

CFB hits it head on for me wrt Muslims. The Religion is being used as a tool/cover for another agenda. Your average Joe (Abdul?) Muslim just wants to make the mortgage payment.

 

[laurence]

Good question! I'm at work now so I can't get into a full answer, but there are plenty of ways of deriving morals without religion.

To me, it seems like the best source for morals would likely be one that actually exists! (Uh oh.... I guess there's a danger in addressing this topic of getting into the old religion flamewars, which I'll try to avoid when I rejoin this discussion later!)

I see you working, brother! But your total lack of malice makes it hard to actually push my button.

 

[Scrooge]

Atheism? On an early retirement board? Wouldn't the default answer be "Hell, yes, there is a God!"  

 

[maddythebeagle]

Your average Joe (Abdul?) Muslim just wants to make the mortgage payment.

Atheism? On an early retirement board? Wouldn't the default answer be "Hell, yes, there is a God!"

I always heard that God doesnt believe in Atheists

 

[alphabet soup]

The root cause of conflict, dysfunction, hostility, paranoia, etc., in my opinion, is that there are as many differing concepts of God(s) as there are trees in the forest.

You can include atheists in that statement. Only in their case, it's the differing concepts of the gods they don't believe in.

In every denomination I've known well, and there've been four, the congregations has ideas of God that were all over the map.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

"that which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is nothing new under the sun."~~ecclesiastes 1:2-9

so i will just offer a few quotes by others:

"generosity is the basis of moral discipline and forbearance is the purifier of moral discipline."~~jigme tenpe nyima, the third dodrupchen

"the salvation of this human world lies nowhere else than in the human heart, in the human power to reflect, in human meekness and human responsibility."~~vaclav havel

"nothing is precious save what is yourself in others and others in yourself." ~~ pierre teilhard de chardin

"when i know myself, i know others. when i master myself,
i don't need to master others."~~tao te ching, stephen mitchell translation

for morality on this forum, i offer:

"a refinery is for silver, a furnace is for gold, but god tries the heart."~~proverbs 17:3

to your comment on jihad:

"the holy warrior is he who struggles with himself."~~the prophet mohammed

and of course my very favorite:

"trust in god -- but tie your camel first."~~the prophet mohammed

as to my own meek contribution i would only offer a question which i think will answer all of yours:

how does an existentialist toilet train a child?

 

[donheff]

Psyop:

How about starting with "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. " Keep in "self evident" but take out "Creator."

Seriously, Kant's formulation, the Golden Rule, Christ's "love thy neighbor as thy self," and similar simple precepts are all we need to lead a decent life. The impulse is probably hard wired into us as a social species. The few exceptions are seen for the sociopaths they are whether they are religious or atheists.

None of these precepts lead to anarchy. And Governments can establish secular laws that guard individual rights without need to reference some creed's rule book.

 

[wabmester]

The real question here is for atheists:

What or where do you derive your moral principles from? 
Are they subject to change based on individual circumstances? 
Do you believe that there should be a moral standard that a society cannot cross?

Nice way to cut to the chase, Ranger!   Atheism doesn't define a set of beliefs -- it's just the rejection of various flavors of off-the-shelf belief systems.  So, obviously the universe of alternative belief systems is large.

I believe in evolution.   Not just as a mechanism to shape species, but also as a mechanism to shape societies.   Religious morals have obviously evolved over the years, and for the most part, all canned religions have a lot in common.   They kept what worked.   Incest is bad from a genetic fitness standpoint.   Eating pigs can give you trichinosis, etc.

So, basically my made-up religion adopts random moral codes that have been selected over the years for fitness.   I like the golden rule.  I like the Buddhist ideas about not adding any more misery to the world and embracing impermanence.   I like the emphasis Jews put on education.   I basically accept the ideas that I think are still relevant and reject those that I think aren't.

Yes, morals change.   But if you're looking for something to root yourself in, I think you could probably find a biological basis for some morals.   For example, the idea that all men are basically "good" is really rooted in the fact that humans are much more similar to one another than we are different, biologically speaking.   There is a biological foundation for the emotions of love, for the act of laughing, and for all that "good" stuff.

 

[haha]

There is a biological foundation for the emotions of love, for the act of laughing, and for all that "good" stuff.

Hey, you talk like Richard Dawkins. 

One winter morning my then 11 year old son and I were outside. I was feeling strongly the beauty of the fir tress with a little snow on them. I said, God, how did all this get so beautiful!?

He looked up at me and said, “Dad, "it" didn't get to be beautiful, we humans are just here because we liked it, and so we were happy, and so we did well.”

Man, was that a high parent moment!

Ha

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Your average Joe (Abdul?) Muslim just wants to make the mortgage payment.

Believe it or not, the average muslim will neither charge nor pay interest, so no mortgages. It can be done by hook and crook...usually a 'proper' muslim mortgage is done by the bank or some other entity buying the house and 'renting' it to the muslim 'owner' at an inflated rate until the purchasing entity has paid off the cost. Also, the source of the money and the destination through the owning entity must be "proper", in other words, the bank must do something with the money thats approved by the religion.

At least thats how I understand it.

 

[laurence]

Oh, you knew what I meant! I couldn't call him Joe Sixpack since they don't drink, can't say bringing home the bacon because they don't eat pork, and yes technically their not allowed to borrower or lender be. Analogy's are hard here! Our cultures are really divergent!

 

[samclem]

Of course people were raising kids well and building successful societies long before Mosaic law. To those who need a list of "commandments," I think those drafted by Solon the Athenian are more useful than the "Mosaic Ten." By the way, Solon drafted the constitution for Athens, and his ideas found their way into the US constitution.

Solon's 10 commandments:
1. Trust good character more than promises.
2. Do not speak falsely.
3. Do good things.
4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made.
5. Learn to obey before you command.
6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful.
7. Make reason your supreme commander.
8. Do not associate with people who do bad things.
9. Honor the gods.
10. Have regard for your parents.

(I've got a problem with #9 )

- As a parent, I don't feel the need to invoke hell's fire or an omniscient God as an enforcement mechanism to help me teach my child how to be a good person, treat others fairly, and do the right thing. Yes, I can see how this might be handy--but it wouldn't be honest for me to try it.

- As far as societal morality goes--I'm not sure a case can be made that those based on monotheistic beliefs have kept to a higher standard than those based on polytheism--or no "supreme beings" at all. Slavery, torture, aggressive behavior toward neighboring societies, abuse of women-- some of the most morally repugnant behavior can, historically, be found in monotheistic societies.

 

[ERD50]

The Golden Rule - IMO, it's all you really need. The rest is just details.

But, you need to think for yourself to figure out how it applies to a specific situation.


There are two problems I have with most people I meet that present themselves as deeply religious (I am generalizing here):

1) Some of them don't want to think - they want to be told what is right/wrong.

2) Some of them don't want to acknowledge that there are some grey areas and some hard answers - they want a black and white right/wrong.

I know people that spend hours each week in Bible study, chapter this, verse that. Yet, they can't seem to figure out that they have some basic responsibilities to their families that they are not living up to?

However, anyone that finds that a religious focus helps them to become a better person - they have my blessing!

-ERD50

 

[Michael Moore]

Consider applying the "silver rule": don't do unto others what you wouldn't want them to do unto you. 

That seems to me to work out a LOT better than the so-called "golden rule", which very much predates any form of Christianity.

If you want to do more investigation, you could check out many of the discussions at:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/index.php

and articles at

http://www.infidels.org/

You might also consider the comment by Epicurus:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
     Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
     Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
     Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
     Then why call him God?

Also, it seems that very many people confuse morals and ethics, so it is a good idea to make sure just which term is appropriate to the topic you are discussiong.

Many atheists have no problem coming up with ethical modes of behavior.  Morals seem to be more of the "thou shalt not" stuff that vary from culture to culture (and epoch to epoch).

I think the latest numbers I saw by a Christian research organization was that there are over 30,000 different sects of Christianity, all of which differ with the others about something or other.  Tell me again about the blinding obviousness of religious truth? 

cheers,
Michael

 

[azanon]

The real question here is for atheists:

What or where do you derive your moral principles from?

 

Your question assumes I must have a predefined set of moral principles.   Thus your question is flawed.   I take a centric approach with decisions, but am very mindful of "karma" type effects.   In other words, I make decisions that advantage me, and those I care about, but I am fully aware that if i do harm (of any kind) in the process, that it could eventually come back to haunt me (or harm me during the act of doing harm).   I guage these potential harms vs benefits and act (or not act) accordingly.

I like to think that, in theory, all options are on the table.   "Moral principles" to me suggest that some options are simply not there, and I interpret that as weakness.   If you have a rule i dont, then that means i have the option to do something you cannot (unless you have no moral absolutes). 

Now i know this sounds pretty evil, but its really not.  I'm an emotional creature just like all of us, and i also have empathy, so sometimes the "greater good for me" might be helping a person in need.   Someone else obviously benefits from it, and I as well feel good because I helped someone.   So win/win.  No predefined rules, but still not an uncommon occurence for an atheist.

Are they subject to change based on individual circumstances?

 

n/a per my answer to your first question.

Do you believe that there should be a moral standard that a society cannot cross?

I dont particularily have any problems with the existence of "moral standards" either self imposed by the masses (such as via a religion) or via laws.   If these things did not exist, then i would no longer have the advantage that i do, due to their existence.  These also have a host of other benefits, like keeping the masses pacified when they might otherwise be volatile.

I'm a scientist so just generally speaking, i do not like absolutes.  Everything's negotiable.  Lets sit down and look at the pros and cons.

..........

This discussion reminds me of the movie "Crash"; movie of the year last year.   There's a lot of interesting moral topics dealt with in that movie, in particular how morality seems to be throw in the grey area.    I liked that because i think it emphasized that morality isnt quite as cut and dry as many of the fundamentist would like to believe it is.

Anyone like ad&d?  If i were to have to pick an ad&d alignment for myself, it would be chaotic neutral.

Azanon

(edit)  cutthroat mentioned ebay.  For the record, i currently have 11 positives, 0 neutrals or negatives.   So I guess there's another example of an atheist being dependable.  Common sense tells me that if i screw someone, they are going to click negative and then i will only be able to sell two types of items afterwards;  1.  jack and 2. s*it.

 

[sgeeeee]

It seems to me that children are taught most moral behavior long before they can possibly understand and accept religious doctrine. Small children are taught not to lie, not to use violence, basic manners, etc. from a very young age. They are taught the value of being loved and of loving.

Religion is far more complex and only comes later. It's hard for me to believe that very many children are able to truely understand religion before their teenage years. Christians may be able to rationalize their morals using the bible, but they don't form them from it.

Survival of the species requires that we learn to live together. Living together requires that we develop a certain level of respect and support for each other. Isn't that the basis of most moral beliefs? Get your morals from Allah, get them from Christ, get them from bokanan, or get them from logic. The common thread is that we need to respect and support each other if we are to thrive.