College Degree Ain't What it Used to Be

[Nords]

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Originally Posted by eridanus Alabama farmers are finding out what happens when they pay an illegal laborer only $60 (no employment taxes needed!) for 10-12 hours of work and then try to do the same to a legal employee. Even if we are all way above average, most people aren't. We can whine about their whining and how they're lazy do-nothings...or we create jobs for them.

I liked the part of the article where the bureaucrat said "Your business model is broke. You need a new one." It'll be interesting to see how they work it out.

After nine years of ER, I've learned that I do not particularly care to volunteer for charity work. While I happily donate anonymously to AccesSurf, and I enjoy watching them do their thing on the beach, I have no desire to set up/take down the gear and put in the time with the beneficiaries. I'd, uh... rather be surfing.

What I've tremendously enjoyed, however, is angel investing. It's a slog and there's a lot of scut work but it's also very invigorating to see an entrepreneur bring in an idea and a business plan and make it work with just a small six-figure investment from our group. It's literally job creation, and one day I hope to be able to say "Hey, I helped those guys create jobs!" Until then it's better described as "angel philanthropy"...

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Originally Posted by MichaelB But there are many more that are doing the right things, not getting results and frightened that the outcome may be permanently bad.

Yep, it's oversimplified. But I think there's an inherent contradiction between "doing the right things" and "still unemployed". They might have been the right things at some other time & place, but no longer. At some point something different needs to be tried... hence the "persistence" part of the oversimplification.

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Originally Posted by MichaelB Colleges and Universities must get more involved - they have no skin in this game. Require them to hold half the total debt any student incurs and make that debt eligible for bankruptcy. Also make them liable for half of gov’t aid if their graduates fall into financial trouble. That will get them to sit up and take notice. Set up a two track high secondary school system. One for college bound students and the other for direct to work or technical school students. New housing construction is a critical component of employment and economic growth. To stabilize it and allow it grow at a more naturally sustainable level it needs to be freed of stimulus and gov’t incentive. The busts are so harsh because the boom was overstimulated.

I see a lot of fumbling well-intentioned efforts in this area. Our state U has an office of technology transfer to get good ideas out of the lab and into the hands of the business students. The govt has killed off an entrepreneurship tax credit that, frankly, encouraged too many marginal businesses. Now they're trying tech incubators and investing alongside angel groups. Our daughter's high school does exactly that two-track system, and local unions are reaching down as low as the sophomores for apprenticeship programs leading to journeyman certification. Nationally there are programs like Jumpstart and Kickstart. But more could be done.

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Originally Posted by eridanus Are you suggesting that there ARE plenty of jobs available for those who are unemployed? The unemployment rate is 9.1%. The underemployment rate and long-term rates are higher. Do you have any numbers to this theory that there are plenty of jobs? In other words, please provide evidence of ~15M vacant jobs that no one is taking. Thanks.

My street is filled with neighbors who have leaky faucets, burned-out lightbulbs, unpainted houses, unkempt yards, unhung pictures, balky/dirty appliances, disorganized closets, unwalked dogs, unscooped poop, and a raft of other "handyman specials". They might be unemployed too, but they don't mind spending a little to fix some things.

I'm no rocket scientist, but if I'm any example then a groundskeeper/handyman could get $25-$50/hour just taking care of their neighborhood. That'll buy groceries, pay the rent, and keep the job search perking along.

Persistence.

[Texas Proud]

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Originally Posted by Ronstar Our niece's husband dropped out of med school to be a full time pilot. He now flies corporate, and is going back to school - photography. I can't figure that one out - can't see where the secure jobs are. Nor can I figure out why at the age of 56 I want to go back and get a degree in history. I'm not looking for a job. Maybe one's passion for a degree isn't related to their need for employment as much as I once thought it was.

Not to try and talk you out of a degree, but usually auditing a course is cheaper than taking them for credit... and you get the same knowledge...

Since you do not need the degree for employment, why get one

[Texas Proud]

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Originally Posted by eridanus Sometimes I think this board should be called, "The Glass House ER Forum". When you were in college, in the good old days, everyone studied hard and joined "worthwhile" groups like student government and never skipped class or did anything crazy? That tells me that you missed the 60s. It also tells me that no one here graduated during the 70s oil crisis, or the 80s crisis, or the 90s recession, or the 00 dot bomb. Or, perhaps, everyone here is an economic automaton, always making the correct decisions since they were 3 years old. Empathy isn't a four letter word.

I graduated in the 80s when it was hard to get a job right out of college... in fact, almost everybody in all directions that I could talk to during graduation did not have a job...

I think the difference between then and now is that within a year most of the people I knew had a job... now, I do not think so.... I think the labor market has changed drastically since the 70s and most people struggle to get a decent job...

[ziggy29]

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud I graduated in the 80s when it was hard to get a job right out of college...

Early '80s, before fully emerging from the recession, yes, I can believe that. But from about 1984 to the rest of the decade?

It's certainly true that there are challenges and demands met by every generation and every graduating class. But I don't think anyone of working age today (especially over the age of 30) has had to endure anything close to what recent grads (and current students) are looking at, especially in terms of the duration of the malaise. And if someone told us that we had to jump through all the hoops and endure all the crap that today's new grads have to subject themselves to in order to get even a lousier-than-usual entry level job, we'd feel ripped off too, compared to what we saw our elders get. Yet that's what many folks are telling today's young graduates. It feels a little "let them eat cakey" to me.

[Texas Proud]

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Originally Posted by Nords Alabama is finding out what happens when them durn illegal immigrants (and their legal friends) are driven outta town: Why Americans Won't Do Dirty Jobs - Businessweek .

"Businesses turned to foreign labor only because they couldn’t find enough Americans to take the work they were offering."

Above from the article...

Which means that they wages are not competative... IOW, the farmers, et.al. were paying lower wages than needed to attract workers because of illegal workers.... I bet if they up the wages they will get workers....

Also, I have never understood why they require you to stand for a lot of these jobs To my surprise, when I lived in England the checkout people were sitting on a stool... never thought about it before then... why does the checkout person need to stand Maybe if they made the work environment a bit better they also could attract people....

[Ronstar]

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud Not to try and talk you out of a degree, but usually auditing a course is cheaper than taking them for credit... and you get the same knowledge... Since you do not need the degree for employment, why get one

Thanks for the advice. I suspected that "auditing" was done in situations like mine. But I didnt know the term. I care more about learning (and saving $) than getting a degree. I'll check into it.

[farmerEd]

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The problem now is that that period of struggling seems to be extended and that student loan load is not real forgiving.

I am quite sympathetic to the argument that college really isn't what it used to be, and quite frankly, IMO, is just not 'worth it' for some folks. I also readily acknowledge that the economy s*cks for a lot of people, especially new grads.

On the otherhand, I often hear the factoid that the average student graduates with a loan of $25,000 to pay back, and that the loan is a 'burdensome'.

I don't quite see how a $25K loan is really much of a burden. $25K is the cost of a new car, and if you were to finance 25K for a 5 year loan you'd be paying around $425/month....and student loans have much longer terms, so presumably the monthly payment would be even less.

For some professions (doctors for example), I am sure the loans are much, much higher - but then again so is the payoff in salary.

I guess the real problems are the folks that were foolish enough to go $100K or more into debt for a career that pays really low money - that is a hard lesson in the reality of economics for some folks.

[ziggy29]

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Originally Posted by farmerEd I guess the real problems are the folks that were foolish enough to go $100K or more into debt for a career that pays really low money - that is a hard lesson in the reality of economics for some folks.

True. But those of us who were "old" enough to know better drank the Kool-Aid about the need to get a degree from the best college in order to have a chance -- and we passed it down to our kids. We encouraged *all* our kids to go to college, spiking demand and thus college costs, we made it seem so necessary that any sacrifices were just necessary in order to get that piece of paper -- beg, borrow or steal to get it.

And now that the "rules" we established for the young generation no longer apply -- rules we taught them -- we blame them for listening to us? Odd.

[nun]

I'm glad I grew up in the UK when the government paid to educate students with good exam results. The only barrier to a college education was not enough intellect. Every student also got a grant to live on, so as I applied the LBYM strategy to my money even back then I left with $5k in my bank account.

[nun]

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Originally Posted by farmerEd I don't quite see how a $25K loan is really much of a burden. $25K is the cost of a new car, and if you were to finance 25K for a 5 year loan you'd be paying around $425/month....and student loans have much longer terms, so presumably the monthly payment would be even less.

People should be able to afford $25k, but what gets me is the 6 or 7% interest rates they are charging in such low interest rate times. Seems excessive even if the default rates are quite high.

[Texas Proud]

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud I graduated in the 80s when it was hard to get a job right out of college... in fact, almost everybody in all directions that I could talk to during graduation did not have a job... I think the difference between then and now is that within a year most of the people I knew had a job... now, I do not think so.... I think the labor market has changed drastically since the 70s and most people struggle to get a decent job...

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Originally Posted by ziggy29 Early '80s, before fully emerging from the recession, yes, I can believe that. But from about 1984 to the rest of the decade? It's certainly true that there are challenges and demands met by every generation and every graduating class. But I don't think anyone of working age today (especially over the age of 30) has had to endure anything close to what recent grads (and current students) are looking at, especially in terms of the duration of the malaise. And if someone told us that we had to jump through all the hoops and endure all the crap that today's new grads have to subject themselves to in order to get even a lousier-than-usual entry level job, we'd feel ripped off too, compared to what we saw our elders get. Yet that's what many folks are telling today's young graduates. It feels a little "let them eat cakey" to me.

Maybe if you quoted my whole statement you can see that I said it is different today than back then..... your post on my comment seems to make it look like I did not... (ie, you are qouting me out of context)... I bolded mine to show that I did address the difference...

[ziggy29]

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud Maybe if you quoted my whole statement you can see that I said it is different today than back then..... your post on my comment seems to make it look like I did not... (ie, you are qouting me out of context)... I bolded mine to show that I did address the difference...

Fair enough -- my editing was for brevity's sake alone.

[Jay_Gatsby]

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Originally Posted by ziggy29 True. But those of us who were "old" enough to know better drank the Kool-Aid about the need to get a degree from the best college in order to have a chance -- and we passed it down to our kids. We encouraged *all* our kids to go to college, spiking demand and thus college costs, we made it seem so necessary that any sacrifices were just necessary in order to get that piece of paper -- beg, borrow or steal to get it. And now that the "rules" we established for the young generation no longer apply -- rules we taught them -- we blame them for listening to us? Odd.

While what you say is true, the younger generation has access to one key resource that none of us had when we were in their position - the Internet. There is so much collected wisdom about going to college, picking majors, employment statistics, etc... down to the most minute level, that the younger generation could find with with just a few clicks of a mouse. Don't get me wrong, kids are conditioned to listen to their parents, but that's no excuse for blindly relying on parents whose knowledge of college and the entry-level job market is 20+ years out of date.

[2soon2tell]

Not all aging boomers had robust job opportunities right after college. If you recall there was a very unpopular war raging in the 60's and with a military draft in effect. In 1968 I got my BS having just turned 22 yrs old. Companies would not interview you knowing that you were classified 1A and about to be drafted. You pretty much knew what you would be doing the next few years. This was before the draft lottery went into effect. I worked for minimum wage in the men's section of a department store until I went into the Navy. Yeah it sucked and I feel for people coming out of school today with limited job opportunities.

2soon2tell

[FUEGO]

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Originally Posted by East Texas I learned the time value of money in my first finance course. That began my long trek to understanding how valuable basic financial knowledge can be the key to one's financial peace. I don't know if the Rule of 72 is taught is even taught these days. I can do a PV by hand (takes me awhile) and could probably do an IRR manually (would take weeks). My college education was heavy on finance and economics with just enough liberal arts courses to make me more rounded. I have a 30 year old BA35 calculator and if the house burns down and I can only get one thing - that's the one thing. Well, I'd have to get two things because I'd need to get my spouse and the calcultor. Hopefully in that order.

I just interviewed a young whipper snapper fresh out of college this morning for one of the many positions we are currently hiring for. Oddly enough one of the questions I asked was "how many economics or finance classes have you taken" and "do you know what net present value and discount rate means". For an engineering position, but I need a candidate that can use a spreadsheet and speak money talk too. You'll be happy to know that this particular young engineering grad has a solid economics and finance background!

[ziggy29]

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Originally Posted by Grinch While what you say is true, the younger generation has access to one key resource that none of us had when we were in their position - the Internet.

Which I suspect has done more to facilitate the exporting of IT and call center jobs than any other factor. Is that really a net positive (no pun intended)?

[Nords]

In support of job creation, here's a WSJ article on startups like Zaarly and TaskRabbit. Call it "microserfing"...

Websites Let People Farm Out Chores - WSJ.com

But, no, I'm not looking for a job, and we already clean our own worm bin. It doesn't seem gross at all, just good & dirty.

[ratto]

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Originally Posted by Nords In support of job creation, here's a WSJ article on startups like Zaarly and TaskRabbit. Call it "microserfing"... Websites Let People Farm Out Chores - WSJ.com But, no, I'm not looking for a job, and we already clean our own worm bin. It doesn't seem gross at all, just good & dirty.

Good for your worm bin.

This is the article I talked with DW last night. Those chore web sites are a great idea, but I'm more troubled by some examples in the article. What kind of mentality and values our society encourages? I guess cleaning worm bin or buying a new pair of shoes at the request of someone else due to dog poop does contribute to our GDP growth.

[GandK]

I'm afraid that initiatives aimed at spurring businesses to create more jobs won't satisfy very many of the jobless. We don't reward job creation anymore unless the jobs are of a certain caliber... our present society isn't pro-jobs, just pro-labor. I mean, you can't just ask someone to dig a ditch for whatever you can afford to pay them like you could 25 years ago... if you don't offer lavish benefits, all the free water you can drink and a complimentary shovel, people basically accuse you of being inhumane.

[haha]

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Originally Posted by DFW_M5 I find all this stereotyping of how all the kids coming out of college today are worthless whiners is absurd. Sure there are some, and without a doubt they were there when you graduated. However, the entry level opportunities today pale in comparison to what most of us had available at that age. I'd like to see some of you come out of college in 2010-11 and not feel frustrated or at least feel lucky to have landed something and thats not to mention the same for all those who have been productive in their jobs only to be laid off.

+4! When I came out of university, you almost had to barf on the boss's wife at the company party to not get a job. To succeed today you have to be smart, politically astute and have very good work ethic, which more of less translates as "sell your soul to the company".

Ha