College’s New Reality...

[rayinpenn]

My wife and I will be funding “Cool Hands’” 3 summer online courses over the next few days. It isn’t a minor amount of money - Penn State is one of the most expensive state affiliated schools in the country. Those three courses cost about the same as what I paid for my entire undergraduate degree all those years ago. I am not complaining mind you, I have seen ‘Cool Hand’ scrambling to get his work done and he clearly is learning about interacting with people, responsibility and the subject matter. In my opinion we have gotten our money’s worth. The uncertainty on where he will spend his senior year has gotten me to pondering about the the future of “Going away to college”.

We all have been bombarded with story after story of student debt, College cost growing faster than inflation and College’s amenities that rival a pricey spa. Then there are the many former colleagues of mine with student loan debt North of $100,000. I know their stories: “Ray it’s killing me”. What is clear for many the process simply isn’t working. Isn’t it usually some unusual event that triggers a needed change?

Get a great Professor who is good in front of the camera and have him record 1 hour sessions of calculus 101. With today’s software that could mean they join multiple of his best clips. Do that for a dozen or so sessions, then have him or her do lots of example problems on camera and bam Calc 101 on demand. Of course offer office hours. Repeat that for 40 other courses: BAM Youtube University. Yes an oversimplification but IMHO not horribly so. It is happening all over. The cost of delivery for the product “Calc 101” drops every time a student takes the online course.

Did you know room and board make up between 25%-60% of the cost of college. At state schools where tuition is lower it is 50-60%. The savings potential is enormous.

I have some pretty fond memories of my 2 years of undergraduate away from home. I think for me a good portion of my enjoyment was getting away from a pretty stressful situation. Graduating with little or no debt does sound pretty good though. Maybe it could amount to be getting a degree or not getting one.

Interesting stuff... any thoughts?

[someguy]

I think there's an even bigger shift underfoot: that the pure knowledge portion of college is no longer going to be a one-and-done thing. The extent of human knowledge has gotten enormous and the pace of addition is increasing. I expect there will be less focus on a big bang of four years and instead an ongoing/periodic stream throughout a career.

There is obviously another benefit to traditional on or near campus college that is harder to precisely define but includes learning to live and interact with others, managing time, experimenting with various possibilities, etc. In many ways, it's a halfway house between being a teenager and a fully independent adult. There is also a benefit to being in close and constant proximity to others of similar intellect, much as in the adult working world there are innovation clusters around cities. This part -- I'm not sure how you handle in a remote or distance-learning future.

That said, in the nearer term, the cost of college has generally outpaced inflation by a significant margin while an increasing percentage of high school grads are going to college. Too many are paying too much, a pendulum that was starting to swing back the other way already. I'm sure COVID and its effects will accelerate that swing.

[target2019]

#1 in 2000-2005 probably cost $80K total for an engineering degree (IT security). He had about 25K in debt when he left for a job in Silicon Valley. He paid off debt in a few years.

#2 in 2005-2010 probably cost $100K for a nursing degree. She had about 35K in loans which we paid off before her graduation.

Both worked many hours during college days and helped with payoff, expenses, etc.

My opinion is that it is not about how much you pay now, or what it cost back in the day. If a child picks a degree which is associated with growing employment opportunities in a secure field, then it all works out.

If the maturity is there (doubtful for teens) then remote can work. I used remote exclusively to get an MSc, but there were many classmates who did not have the maturity and discipline to put in the hours and work at getting better.

[copyright1997reloaded]

Background:
Interesting topic that I am living daily from two perspectives:
1) Teaching (now tenured) full time - Computer Science
2) Child (HS Senior)

I also come at #1 from a perspective different than most in academia, in that I had a career in the "real world", retired, and then started teaching. Also different than most in academia given my technical background and ongoing use of technology beyond the typical professor. Final background - The school I teach at has had for many years distance learning, and even before the virus half or more of my class sections were doing in a distance learning format.

Rayinpenn -
Good for you to jump on those summer classes. I am having a similar discussion with my son and I think he will be signing up for one or two classes soon. These will be local (at the school I teach at). He may or may not be able to transfer these credits, but I still consider it valuable to a) start getting used to college level expectations vs. high school and b) either to better understand a subject he will be taking in the fall or perhaps to instead take a higher level course.

Observation: My schools enrollment numbers have been trending down in the last five years or so. This is partially a North East thing (population trends) but also influenced by two other factors: 1) Community colleges (sometimes) do better when the economy is in bad shape, worse when the economy improves. 2) NYS in recent years introduced the Excelsior scholarship which provides "free" college to those with incomes up to $125K. While one would think that would help us (part of SUNY), it actually makes the higher priced SUNY institutions more accessible. [Side note: It has also made the SUNY 4 years schools more competitive and has forced private schools to up their scholarship game.] Our enrollment for summer/fall 2020 started off very slow (down considerably). However, in recent weeks, things seem to be picking up considerably. Perhaps there are a lot of "Cool Hand" kids out there w/similar ideas as your son.

Regarding "great professors" - yes, I agree (to a certain extent). This is one of my fundamental themes in terms of everything - that as technology improves - there is a natural movement towards a narrow set of superstars (at the cost of the middle). For example, before sound recording, you could make a living as a reasonable singer. Now, the superstars have much higher followings while the middle of the road singers/bands struggle. This similar trend is playing out in tons of fields. (A great investment thesis but that is another topic.)

However, there are limits to your idea. My by far time consumer is grading student work. It's not lectures, or lecture prep, or even office hours. It's grading grading grading. The high priced schools answer to that is to give that responsibility to TA's. Most "online" schools answer to that issue is to make automated grading and automated labs. The book publishers *LOVE* this as a new revenue stream. The students however, hate it. Don't get me wrong, students do like online tests - because frequently they can just look up the answers online. From my perspective, in my Computer Science classes, I give LOTS of project work - and as much as I can I try to have scenarios similar to what they will face on REAL projects with REAL companies. The huge negative on this is it requires me to grade each thing individually and is time consuming.

Kinds of students/Is College Needed to Learn: One of my observations is that very little of what I teach isn't available, and most of it can be acquired for free! Need to learn C#? Easy, just get MS Visual Studio and free online doc and be on your way. Want to learn Amazon AWS deployment? Similar, or spend a few bucks and get the Udemy (or other) videos. So what stops people from doing this? (Aside, this is primarily how I learn new things).
1) Lack of knowing where to start: There is tons of information out there - but for a new student, they quickly get lost/overwhelmed by it.
2) The need for forced time limits - many of us will just put things off unless forced (e.g. by an assignment deadline)
3) Wheat vs Chaff - While there are tons of great tutorials/materials, there are also many examples of how not to do things.
4) The desire for proof - the piece of paper. For better or worse, there is still an overall expectation that to show you know something, you need that diploma saying so. [From my perspective, I place very little value in the paper especially given the ease of cheating these days. Instead, I would want to see a portfolio or work and would also interview such that the perspective employee could prove their knowledge of the subject material. ]

someguy - Also agree on this. The "live and interact with others, managing time" - might be one of the more important and valuable aspects of college. I do think that the students of today are much more experienced that us oldsters in terms of group projects. But on the managing time front, there seems to be a huge jump required from high school to college, from an environment where you are constantly reminded of what is due when to one where the professor (e.g. me) says "I put out the assignments, it is ON YOU to remember to do them".

Anyway, great topic!

[copyright1997reloaded]

A couple more thoughts on remote learning:

1) I have some students that do great w/Distance learning.
2) I have some students that SHOULD NOT TAKE distance learning.

The students in 1) are those with good organization, ability to self-motivate. Many of these are those who have existing jobs (especially if this is being taken to go to the next step).

The students in 2) are those who think taking DL is "easier" and gets them from needing to go to class.

I had one course years back I was teaching that was a required course for a certain (mostly) unrelated major. So, those in that major were taking this tech class w/no other Comp Sci background. There were distance learning sections (i.e. no classroom or zoom) and there were traditional (in the classroom) sections.

The DL sections filled up first, mostly with the students in the unrelated major. The result was many students unprepared for the comp sci class, with little day to day interaction with the professor. As a result, a higher failure rate. I had one student that was straight A in their major ... and who got a D in my class. (I did try to help them - offering to meet just about any time they wanted, i.e. not just normal office hours, video conferences, and so on. Most students do NOT take advantage of these offers of help.)

[njhowie]

We were early adopters in this area. DD has been in Harvard's extension school program for the past 7 years and will finish her degree in a few more. She'll come out of it with zero student debt and a Harvard degree. I was investigating when she was still a few years from completing high school (home schooling), because she made her goals/passion well known and what Harvard was offering was a perfect match. We met on-campus with an advisor early on, and it's worked out wonderfully. Harvard's extension program has been doing this for decades. Their online component has been there for 20 years, and their distance program for even longer than that. For DD it offered the best of everything she was looking for, and fit within her plan for what she wanted to be doing. It's lived up to everything we had hoped for, and are very happy with the decision. Early on, we endured haters who would refer to it as "Fake Harvard". Now we get the last laugh as the entire school is doing it.

Now, understand, not all students are a good fit for online learning and coursework. The student has to have a higher level of maturity, diligence, responsibility, independence, and ethics, or it will not work well. We know this from experience. For most students, quickly moving from a more or less structured, on-campus, in-person classroom environment, where the student takes a full time load of 4 courses per semester, they are going to find it difficult to do the same online.

Quote:

Get a great Professor who is good in front of the camera and have him record 1 hour sessions of calculus 101. With today’s software that could mean they join multiple of his best clips. Do that for a dozen or so sessions, then have him or her do lots of example problems on camera and bam Calc 101 on demand. Of course offer office hours. Repeat that for 40 other courses: BAM Youtube University. Yes an oversimplification but IMHO not horribly so. It is happening all over. The cost of delivery for the product “Calc 101” drops every time a student takes the online course.

It all already exists, and for free, from numerous places. For universities, or any wannabe, to be offering degree-granting programs online, they are going to have to be offering something of value which justifies the price, any price, which is more than free. Just having a catalog of Youtube videos which results in a degree will not be worth more than $99.95, if even that.

That (most) traditional universities somehow see fit to be charging tuition/fees which are comparable to what the student gets on campus is unconscionable.

These are just a few of the places for free courses from top schools - many the identical courses given on campus:

https://www.edx.org

https://online-learning.harvard.edu/...&paid[1]=1

https://online.stanford.edu/search-c...=free&type=All

https://oyc.yale.edu/courses

https://openlearning.mit.edu/courses...tx-courses-edx

[clobber]

A great topic. Random thoughts:

1) A relative of mine was formerly pretty high up at a University. They maintained that a student should be eligible to graduate at the end of the semester where they a) registered for classes without any help (no advisor etc) b) paid for classes without any help c) 99% on time attendance without any help d) etc. They estimated it took about 4 years for all that to happen. This goes to everyones point about living, interacting, managing time. College is not just about academic learning

2) Many of the best lessons/classes are on Youtube. I defy anyone to give better math explanations than 3Blue1Brown If you're interested, he has a 10 part Essence of Calculus series - each is only about 15 minutes. I'd like to think that teachers could simply make use of these great tools, but then coach and teach through real/practical problems.

3) OP was accurate with the college costs, especially the percentage cost of housing/meals. But - I'm not sure how much should be included in cost savings. My food and water bills have skyrocketed since DD returned.

[eytonxav]

I think college is great provided the student chooses a major that will get them gainfully employed after graduation, otherwise attend a trade school, go into the service, or become a self learner that leads to something.

[njhowie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayinpenn My wife and I will be funding “Cool Hands’” 3 summer online courses over the next few days.

Something to think about - 3 online courses in one summer is going to be a lot of work.

Just for reference, Harvard extension offers three summer sessions - two 3-week sessions and one 7-week session. They do not allow taking more than one course in each 3-week session or two in the 7-week session. DD went on-campus for a couple summers (as they also have on-campus requirements with her program), and it was a lot of work. Three courses would have been impossible, even without the rules in place.

Our experience indicates that online courses require more work than in-person on-campus.

Again, just something to consider. He likely won't have any life during the summer if he does three courses.

[The Cosmic Avenger]

I agree that this crisis is showing that what was considered part and parcel of the cost of college is not at all necessary to the learning process, and there may be more efficient ways to deliver the same service to students.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that college is often where young adults learn to manage their time and themselves, being solely responsible for setting and adhering to their own schedules, and learning what parts of their routines are necessary and which are not. They have meal plans and resident assistants and dorms, but no parents. It may be the first time any of them had to plan out their expenses for the week or month.

Of course, this isn't something we need to pay tens of thousands of dollars for, but it is still a part of the experience for many students, and they might have to find other ways to make that transition if online learning becomes more common.

[rayinpenn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by njhowie Something to think about - 3 online courses in one summer is going to be a lot of work.

You are right. I don’t think there is going to be much of a summer anyway. I’ll do my best to get him out fishing...

[fasteddie911]

Been giving this a lot of thought lately as we have a little one and are thinking of their future education. From college and 529 funding to k-12, public vs private, respective neighborhoods, etc. I think the online classes drives home the point of college and what you're paying for. I tend to agree that it's less about the academics and teaching and more about the socialization, resources, experience, etc. Part of the experience, for college at least, could be living away from parents too, which is something both my spouse and I did. Similar thing I think can be said of k-12 private vs public, at least for the schools around us. We're now just debating how much all that is worth and how much it even matters in the end, and how much more benefit possibly could be had by instead redirecting those funds towards the childs future (downpayment, retirement, etc.).

[target2019]

I think most parents start out force-fitting their children into the parents' past experience. However, the child is not you, initially. Eventually they do become you, and will admit it one day.

I feel strongly that focusing on what the child enjoys and is good at is a game-changer. Seeing their likes will help you steer the kid to a career rather than a degree. Degree is important and necessary, but it helps to have an associated career.

[athena53]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Cosmic Avenger One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that college is often where young adults learn to manage their time and themselves, being solely responsible for setting and adhering to their own schedules, and learning what parts of their routines are necessary and which are not. They have meal plans and resident assistants and dorms, but no parents. It may be the first time any of them had to plan out their expenses for the week or month. Of course, this isn't something we need to pay tens of thousands of dollars for, but it is still a part of the experience for many students, and they might have to find other ways to make that transition if online learning becomes more common.

My Dad told me early on that college was mostly about learning how to set priorities. I did go away to school and it was really good for me. I got DS through college 3 hours form here with no loans and I'm funding my grandchildren's 529s and hoping that will be an option for them, at least for part of their college educations.

It really is a new world. I've been listening to a podcast on this and the difference in cost between an MBA at Boston College on-campus and by Distance Learning is pretty substantial. You have to wonder if the in-person interaction is worth the extra $$, especially if they're borrowed.

[Lewis Clark]

Quote:

Originally Posted by copyright1997reloaded A couple more thoughts on remote learning: 1) I have some students that do great w/Distance learning. 2) I have some students that SHOULD NOT TAKE distance learning. The students in 1) are those with good organization, ability to self-motivate. Many of these are those who have existing jobs (especially if this is being taken to go to the next step). The students in 2) are those who think taking DL is "easier" and gets them from needing to go to class. I had one course years back I was teaching that was a required course for a certain (mostly) unrelated major. So, those in that major were taking this tech class w/no other Comp Sci background. There were distance learning sections (i.e. no classroom or zoom) and there were traditional (in the classroom) sections. The DL sections filled up first, mostly with the students in the unrelated major. The result was many students unprepared for the comp sci class, with little day to day interaction with the professor. As a result, a higher failure rate. I had one student that was straight A in their major ... and who got a D in my class. (I did try to help them - offering to meet just about any time they wanted, i.e. not just normal office hours, video conferences, and so on. Most students do NOT take advantage of these offers of help.)

Right on target. Distance learning in any format is a poor option for many students who don't have the discipline and maturity to learn independently.

[ExFlyBoy5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by njhowie Something to think about - 3 online courses in one summer is going to be a lot of work. Just for reference, Harvard extension offers three summer sessions - two 3-week sessions and one 7-week session. They do not allow taking more than one course in each 3-week session or two in the 7-week session. DD went on-campus for a couple summers (as they also have on-campus requirements with her program), and it was a lot of work. Three courses would have been impossible, even without the rules in place. Our experience indicates that online courses require more work than in-person on-campus. Again, just something to consider. He likely won't have any life during the summer if he does three courses.

Quick story. During my days in the Air Force, I took occasional traditional classes as my schedule allowed. Eventually, I was travelling too much for traditional learning, so I signed up for online classes. The terms were 9 weeks (accelerated) long and two classes were considered a "full load." Anyway, after 9/11, flying got very, VERY busy. I had taken 3 classes at a time without too much issue, so I got bold and took 4 at one time. Two of the classes were some of the hardest classes I have ever taken in my life. One of them was a crash dynamics class that had a lot of math and the other class was physics.

So, there I was flying my arse off (enough that I had to periodically "time out" because I was exceeding flight time limits) and taking 4 online classes that were quite challenging. I did well that semester, but I never did that again!

[daylatedollarshort]

DH finished his degree from an accredited distance learning college, one that specifically helped military and former military members obtain degrees. No employer ever really questioned him about it, discounted its value, or even seemed to know it was a distance learning college. But in companies that required a college degree for employment, it made the difference between getting hired or not.