Curious about a generator

I have been considering a stationary generator and following this thread. If it is powered by propane (probably our only choice), how far away from the generator can the tank be? Is burying it an option? Does the generator itself need to be near the electric panel? I ask, because that area of the house is where we tend to hang out and the grill is about 15 feet away from the electric panel (in basement). Appreciate any thoughts.

Our 500 gallon tank is buried, and is probably 50' away from the generator. We had it installed when we built the house so burying it was no big deal. The gennie is pretty close (15'?) to the transfer box. I don't think it matters where the electrical panel is, as it's just wires from the transfer box to the panel. You should be able to put it wherever it's convenient for you.
 
I have been considering a stationary generator and following this thread. If it is powered by propane (probably our only choice), how far away from the generator can the tank be? Is burying it an option? Does the generator itself need to be near the electric panel? I ask, because that area of the house is where we tend to hang out and the grill is about 15 feet away from the electric panel (in basement). Appreciate any thoughts.

Don't know how far tank has to be from generator. I do know there are requirements for how far generators must be from windows, doors, and furnace air intake/exhaust. I can't find my Generac Install manual.

Propane tanks can be buried in some places, but it may depend on local codes and whether the propane supplier has tanks that can be buried.

Generator doesn't need to be near the electric panel, but it helps. Generac Switch/sub panel comes with a wiring harness(maybe 10-15') that goes between the generator and switch/subpanel. For me, it was convenient to put the switch/subpanel a couple of feet away from my main electric panel. Made transferring the circuit wiring from the main panel to the sub panel easier and used less wire. So my generator is about 10'-15' from my electric panel.
 
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I have been considering a stationary generator and following this thread. If it is powered by propane (probably our only choice), how far away from the generator can the tank be? Is burying it an option? Does the generator itself need to be near the electric panel? I ask, because that area of the house is where we tend to hang out and the grill is about 15 feet away from the electric panel (in basement). Appreciate any thoughts.
Your local propane supplier will be familiar with local codes (though not with any HOA issues) and can advise you on cost-effective options. Re distance from the generator to the house, the longer the distance the heavier and more expensive the connection wire must be. Your electrician/genset vendor knows how to do the calculations. The wire cost is probably not a big factor in your bottom line cost, though, even though you may be throwing away any wire that came kitted with the genset.
 
We installed a whole-house generator with transfer switch and 500 gal buried propane tank 7 years ago. Apart from paying ~$13,000 the hardest part was finding one company to do the whole job including hooking up a fireplace and grill. We wanted just one company to call if something wasn't done right, no finger pointing.
We wanted to own the tank so we could shop around for propane rather than be locked into a contract. We are able to shop around for propane but we have to convince any new supplier that we own the tank.
 
Generac

In 2014 I bought a whole-house 20kW Generac system for $8K installed. Well worth the price as it helps me sleep well after having lost power in 2012 for 6 days with temperatures below freezing. Cost will likely be $12K now. Pay $300 a year to have it serviced.
 
If you have decent solar exposure, the panels are getting so cheap that it may be cheaper to go with panels and inverters. My brother had fantastic exposure, put the system into the mortgage and eliminated all gasoline and utility bills. Paid off well.
 
If you have decent solar exposure, the panels are getting so cheap that it may be cheaper to go with panels and inverters. ....

and batteries!

A typical solar install is grid tied, if the grid goes down, you have no power, even when the sun is shining. And if you got an inverter that can work off-grid, if you want power when the Sun's not shining, you need batteries. Lots of 'em. They aren't cheap.


... My brother had fantastic exposure, put the system into the mortgage and eliminated all gasoline and utility bills. Paid off well.

I'd love to see the spreadsheet on that. Unless your electric rates are very high (where is this?), or you got other people to pay for a lot of it (subsidies), the payback analysis to the buyer (not those who funded the subsidy) I've seen is pretty marginal.

-ERD50
 
Surprised no one mentioned solar with battery back up, particularly if you already have done a solar install. Mostly generators are seen as a short term temporary solution to an uncommon problem. For me I am looking to add a battery system to my solar panels to run the fridge freezer, power the fuel oil heating, the propane oven electric start, well pump, the heat pump hot water and some lights. Why would I need every light and every outlet working? Do I need the whole house air conditioned? I think not... And in times of no black out I would reap the benefits of not buying electricity most nights.
 
.......... I would like to have one that automatically turns on to keep the air conditioner, refrigerator, other appliances and lights functional. ..........

........... Do I need the whole house air conditioned? I think not... .......
I have my own preferences, too, but I think the OP's preferences are what are being addressed here.
 
powerwall II

I added a whole house surge protector and a Powerwall II to my 200 amp panel when I had my solar panels installed. I am surprised no one mention it. I live in Palm Springs, so the sun will always be here. It will run my two fridges and led lights, cable/wifi and bedroom outlets (for charging phones) and using my laptop or smart energy tv. I haven't had an outage, yet, over an hour or two. Without the Powerwall, my solar is totally useless in an outage because the electricity goes directly to the grid. No grid, no power. Such a stupid set-up, but it is what it is. I also have a Prius-Prime, so I can get a 110v trickle charge by plugging into the garage fridge outlet...cannot charge and run at the same time in an outage, but I can get 35 miles of travel every other day or so, if it is a really long outage, like the one we had in Central California in the 90s.
 
^^^
People in our area buy a small battery backup for their computers, it will power them while the generator is coming up to speed and getting on line. Then do it again when the power comes on and the generator shuts down.
 
^^^
People in our area buy a small battery backup for their computers, it will power them while the generator is coming up to speed and getting on line. Then do it again when the power comes on and the generator shuts down.



Or just by laptops with built in batteries.
 
The OP stated clearly what he wants to run in his first post. :facepalm:
 
Don’t do it! Get some solar panels instead!

I have 15 solar panels. That’s 5KW of power. I never have to pay for fuel. AND I get 25 -30 kWh everyday of free energy, even when there’s no power outage. I added a battery and have power at night. A generator is only useful when there’s an outage. Solar is useful during an outage but also the rest of the time. Plus there’s a Federal Tax credit to buy it. In our state there’s also a state credit. Add them together and you have a 55% credit! Are you kidding! Forget the generator.
 
I was looking at a Genrac, but the electrical inspector reminded me that I am on propane and if the generator came on when I was away from home I would quickly run out of propane. I opted for a 9500 watt propane generator from Costco for about $700. I put in a splitter at the generator inlet that feeds both 200 amp service panels so I can choose whatever circuits I want to power. If I get too old to move the generator 10 feet out the garage door, plug it in, and push the start button, it will be time to move out of the mountains anyway.
 
The OP stated clearly what he wants to run in his first post. :facepalm:

+1

You are obviously being too subtle ;)

Of course, if they didn't read the OP, and didn't read your two posts on the subject, I'm showing unbridled optimism to think this might help, but, from the OP....

I would like to have one that automatically turns on to keep the air conditioner, refrigerator, other appliances and lights functional.

Too subtle?


I would like to have one that automatically turns on to keep the air conditioner, refrigerator, other appliances and lights functional.



Third time's the charm:


I would like to have one that automatically turns on to keep the air conditioner, refrigerator, other appliances and lights functional.


:)

-ERD50
 
Generac or Kohler

The only two models you should consider are Generac and Kohler. Both are equally rated by Consumer Reports. We have a 20kw Generac that is tied into the natural gas line. Comes on once per week for 10 minutes or so as a self check. Been a godsend for the times we needed it, especially when we had that bad ice storm here in TN a few years back (we lost power completely for 2+ days, while some parts of the county were 2+ weeks). Ours was probably about $9-10K installed but the outfit is top notch, and they did have to spend more time running a new gas line, moving breakers in our multiple boxes, and so forth. Maybe we could have gotten cheaper like our neighbor, but his poor installation company caused some of his appliances to be fried the first time the generator came on. You get what you paid for.
 
I'll interject a rather odd problem I came across with whole-house generators.

A friend of mine has business offices that are in a semi-rural area, he needs reliable power for the office. He got quotes from the industrial/commercial suppliers, and they were something like 5x to 10x the cost of something like Generac installed. He went with Generac.

In some cases, it is "you get what you pay for", and if Generac level fits your needs, you are set. But why the cost delta? For one thing, the commercial units are rated for many more hours use than the home-based units. Again, probably little/no concern for occasional use, so it's all good.

But one day my friend calls me, he says he can't figure this out. All their office computers are on their own UPSs so they survive a glitch, or short outage before the generator kicks in, and they've always worked just fine for short outages. But they had an overnight outage, and all the computers were down, and the UPSs were dead and beeping their warning tones. But the generator was running, the lights were on, all seemed well. So why would the computers go down when they also had UPS backup?

Ah-hah! As I'm talking, he says "The weird thing is, and it just happened - when the well pump comes on, the UPSs stop beeping!".

So I'm in Sherlock Holmes mode to figure this out. Turns out, one way the home-level units manage to squeak out more power and run time for a limited amount of cost is, they play loose with frequency regulation. So there is a weird positive feedback speed regulator board. If you are not calling for much power, the engine slows down to conserve fuel and reduce wear and tear. And when there is a high demand, it speeds up (you'd expect an engine to slow down with a heavy load, but the positive feedback over-rides this). By speeding up, it can produce more power than if it ran a speed to provide a constant 60 Hz. So that's how they can say it provides XX.X kW.

If you're still reading,
you may be wondering, what does this have to do with their computers on UPSs?

Well, that's the second piece of the puzzle. The UPS is programmed such that if the line looks unstable (low or high frequency), something must be wrong, so it switches to battery. So when their Generac kicked in, but the frequency drifted, the UPSs all switched to battery, and stayed on battery, and were all dead by the next morning. But when their well pump kicked in, that drew a "Goldilocks" amount of load to cause the Generac to run very near 60 Hz, and the UPSs were happy, and switched back to the line and started charging their batteries. But the well pump didn't run at all overnight, and not long enough to recharge the batteries, so the UPSs were all dead.

If you search the Generac forums, you'll find ways to modify the control board to 'tame' that positive feedback and maintain a more stable 60Hz, but it's rarely needed. Until it is. :)

Carry On. - ERD50
 
2 more cents

I can read all of the answer so forgive me if mine is just more of the same. we actually researched, with the help of our electrician, various generators and it turns out that Kohlers are actually more reliable and higher quality than the Generac. The problem is there aren't as many certified maintenance people for the Kohlers. My electrician became certified just to put ours in, and to be able to put future Kohlers in for people.

Ours did cost the seemingly requisite 10 grand, which I believe included tank installation (trenching for gas line, delivery, install, etc. but the tank itself was free, 500 gallons). Ours is definitely a whole house and then some. I think it is 14Kw.

Incidentally a little side story, we have a 2000 square-foot colonial with baseboard heat, and two heat pumps. We used to have a little Honda 5.5 horse 5500 KW portable generator that we used. We had a switch installed in the garage so we could plug it straight into that. We stress-tested it many times, and never so much as made it hesitate or bog. We're talking microwave, coffee maker, washing machine, electric dryer, turning the water on so the water pump came on, turning the heat up so the furnace came on etc. So in other words that 5500w 5.5 horse generator was, in essence, a whole house generator for us, and it was plenty. However, whenever we lost the power I had to drag it out in the inclement weather and start it up and then keep it filled with gasoline. so not the most automated system in the world!

This new whole house generator is amazing. I don't even have to leave my desk when I'm working at my computer. I have battery backup on my PC, so when we lose power I don't miss a beat. There have been times when we didn't even realize the power was back on because there was hardly a blip when it switched back over.
 
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various generators and it turns out that be coworkers are actually more reliable and higher quality than the generac.

What is a "be coworker?"
 
Whoops! Sloppy proofreading this morning. "The Kohler" - I went through and did a "English professor" level of proofreading, haha!
 
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As we started the rebuild of our “forever” retirement home last year We decided it was time to Blow the Dough on a “whole house” automatic generator. Our area (rural, wooded, coastal Virginia) is apparently prone to long duration outages largely due to summer storms and hurricanes.

We had a 22KW Generac installed when we replaced/upgraded the main service. This is the largest air cooled unit that Generac makes. It comes with a 200 amp automatic transfer panel. Licensed electrician installed the system at a cost of $8900. Propane connections and new Electrical service were extra.

The generator automatically serves one of my two 200 amp panels - the main panel with lights, most outlets, heat pump, Water heater, well pump, etc. Electric oven (40 amp) dryer (30 amp), basement mini-split heat pumps (30 amps), and hot tub (50 amp) are on the second 200 amp panel (Not backed up).

It’s set to test run for 15 minutes each month. Have a service contract for $160/year that covers all service calls, annual oil change and new battery every couple of years.

We have only had a few outages so far - longest was about 5 hours. So far very satisfied with the unit. Waiting for a multi-day outage to really test the system.

Prior to this house we had a 6000 watt gas generator that we manually operated. At one house we installed a sub-panel that served 6-8 circuits so that we had heat, well, lights, refrigerator, and a few outlets. Air conditioning was not a critical need at that location. We could get gas from our farm neighbor In the event of a long outage. That system served us well at a cost of under $1000.

Think through what your needs are based on your location, lifestyle, critical electric circuits, and outage history to help guide what your generator needs are.
 
We had a whole house Generac generator in our other house. Best thing we ever did as we had a lot of power outages every single year, most lasting a long time. We had a 2600 square foot house.

Everything in the house was on it except the dishwasher, washer and dryer and central AC. It was too much of a load for the AC. We originally had it on The generator and we noticed the condenser struggled when on the generator so we had it removed. Didn’t want to risk it breaking. No biggie. Our ceiling fans were on it.

I don’t remember the cost as we had it bundled with Central AC installation. Had it done in the winter when the contractors are less busy. It was thousands I can tell you that. Maybe $10,000- not sure.

We had 2 100 gallon propane tanks for fuel. I think it could also run on gasoline.
 
The need to power the air conditioner is what drives up the size of the generator a great deal. If you can do without AC, a portable generator will power most necessities. If you don't need 240 volts for a well pump, you can go even smaller.

If you don't need to power an air conditioner, a generator no longer makes sense in most cases. Just get a modern battery backup system. I know people that have 40 kWh of battery backup and rooftop solar to charge it during the day. But most people can get by with a lot less than that. And it's clean and silent and doesn't need a fuel supply which can be problematic in an emergency like after an earthquake.
 
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