Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-06-2018, 08:17 PM   #81
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by indymom View Post
Holland | Patients Rights Council
Among other things:

'A recent Dutch television documentary on euthanasia in which a 68 year-old woman suffering from semantic dementia was given a lethal injection may well herald a turning point in what many consider to be an increasingly broader — and unacceptable — interpretation of the rules."
Personally, if I were suffering dementia, I would welcome that fate. The last thing I want, regardless of my age, is to be mentally dead yet costing tons of money by family and society to keep me alive for no good purpose. I am trying to figure out if I have a window of opportunity in which I would know that I am on the way to dementia, yet I am still aware enough to pass the psychiatric exams in Switzerland so I can do the suicide thing there. No way do I want to be ware-housed in some nursing home.
TwoByFour is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 11-06-2018, 08:25 PM   #82
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by indymom View Post
She lived for another few weeks, giving us time to have conversations we never would have had otherwise. She died peacefully one morning with my sister at her side. That is true death with dignity.
You and your Mom were very, very lucky. It isn't always that simple.
CaptTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2018, 09:03 PM   #83
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 29,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by indymom View Post
I understand, but his great problem was fear, which can be allayed without killing him. In my dad's case, he had an advanced directive prohibiting "tubes" (probably phrased differently, but that's the effect). As a result, he could not be assisted with an IV giving him hydration that would have made him more comfortable. My mom discussed the situation with us when the doctors could do no more and wanted to go with "terminal sedation". We said no, go with comfort care and we will be with you. She had an IV that kept her hydrated and provided a port for administering pain meds without her having to swallow pills or have an injection. She lived for another few weeks, giving us time to have conversations we never would have had otherwise. She died peacefully one morning with my sister at her side. That is true death with dignity.
Your mom wanted terminal sedation and you told her no?
__________________
Retired since summer 1999.
audreyh1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 12:43 AM   #84
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 15,647
Quote:
Originally Posted by indymom View Post
I understand, but his great problem was fear, which can be allayed without killing him. In my dad's case, he had an advanced directive prohibiting "tubes" (probably phrased differently, but that's the effect). As a result, he could not be assisted with an IV giving him hydration that would have made him more comfortable. My mom discussed the situation with us when the doctors could do no more and wanted to go with "terminal sedation". We said no, go with comfort care and we will be with you. She had an IV that kept her hydrated and provided a port for administering pain meds without her having to swallow pills or have an injection. She lived for another few weeks, giving us time to have conversations we never would have had otherwise. She died peacefully one morning with my sister at her side. That is true death with dignity.

I might have worded it incorrectly.... it was probably not fear but something else... I just chose that word... maybe more hate of Drs and hospitals...



Even my sister who is an RN said she does not want to go to a hospital... one of her sayings is she hopes to croak and not stroke...


We had months with my dad... no need to prolong the agony he was going through...
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 01:45 AM   #85
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 11,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoByFour View Post
Personally, if I were suffering dementia, I would welcome that fate. The last thing I want, regardless of my age, is to be mentally dead yet costing tons of money by family and society to keep me alive for no good purpose.
There have been a lot of bold statements on the forum lately regarding euthanasia in lieu of lengthy hospitalizations, LTC or hospice. While I generally agree that there are cases where life extending measures are inappropriate, I also can easily think of examples where the exact timing of the life ending event would be a tough call.

In the situation in Holland you commented on, the patient was suffering from semantic dementia and it isn't clear how far gone her cognitive functions were at the time she was euthanized. I can only assume she was "somewhat there" since the case has stirred up concern. Perhaps the cause of the concern is the issue of determining where along the continuum of cognitive decline it becomes appropriate to proactively end the patient's life.

I only have a small handful of personal experiences with relatives involved in a lingering death process. The recent death of my MIL while receiving palliative care in a NH is one. But in all cases, that relative + family were fully empowered to restrict meds to be only pain management and to remove life support. OP's story and the following comments from others regarding relatives who were forcefully, and against the patient's and family's written directives, given life extending measures when death was imminent seem outrageous to me. Yet, I still see the concern over proactively ending the life (as opposed to reducing care to palliative/hospice) of a patient who is on a decline likely to end in death such as semantic dementia.
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 01:59 AM   #86
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 412
I don't care if I am only half-demented, pull the plug. I mean really, what kind of a life am I going to have between the time of being half-demented to full dementia? It is not as if I will have tons more great experiences to take to the grave with me. I am probably unusual in this sentiment, but I think the greatest departing gift I can give to the world is to get out of the way of the next generation.
TwoByFour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 02:01 AM   #87
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoByFour View Post
Personally, if I were suffering dementia, I would welcome that fate. The last thing I want, regardless of my age, is to be mentally dead yet costing tons of money by family and society to keep me alive for no good purpose. I am trying to figure out if I have a window of opportunity in which I would know that I am on the way to dementia, yet I am still aware enough to pass the psychiatric exams in Switzerland so I can do the suicide thing there. No way do I want to be ware-housed in some nursing home.


I completely agree. I’d rather be proactive and end it a bit sooner than naturally than fail to act and then suffer or waste away at a huge cost with no quality of life.
Scuba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 02:20 AM   #88
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 11,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoByFour View Post
I don't care if I am only half-demented, pull the plug.
Soooooo....... you're saying we should "pull da plug" on you now? (Just kiddin' !)

Seriously, you're sure you want to end it all if your cognitive abilities decline by 50% (ie., "half-demented"). Someone else might want to hang on until 60% gone, especially if the loss is confined to a specific area and other areas are working a bit better.

I think it would be a tough situation for the medical pros to measure and certify. And if they cut your throat based on your say-so, one of your relatives might sue for a zillion bux saying you were incompetent to make that decision.

How you would like things to go for yourself is one thing. Coming up with rules that apply to everyone is going to be tougher. I think we'll get there and, as I said in an earlier post, the few experiences I've been involved with have resolved OK with palliative care, hospice and involved family. We just need to take the next step for those who so desire.

Perhaps our legal system will evolve so that when folks such as yourself document their desire for euthanasia under specified circumstances, the doc's decision that those circumstances have been reached will be legally binding and post-death law suites and such from disagreeing relatives will not be allowed.
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 03:34 AM   #89
Full time employment: Posting here.
Bryan Barnfellow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 772
After nearly 90 posts, I think a quick break for some levity might be in order, no? Here is an excerpt from a Seinfeld episode in which Kramer decides he wants to die with dignity if he is ever in a coma. Hilarity ensues, of course. :-)



-BB
__________________
FIREd, April 1, 2015. My Retirement Benefits Package includes: 6 months vacation, twice a year.
Bryan Barnfellow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 07:00 AM   #90
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoByFour View Post
I don't care if I am only half-demented, pull the plug. I mean really, what kind of a life am I going to have between the time of being half-demented to full dementia? It is not as if I will have tons more great experiences to take to the grave with me. I am probably unusual in this sentiment, but I think the greatest departing gift I can give to the world is to get out of the way of the next generation.
I never talked with anyone who doesn't agree with this. Especially if you've seen someone go through it.

To me, it's simply a definition of the word "living."

Breathing is not living. Living means being able to DO something, to contribute something to the world. If I can't do that, I'm already gone. Pull the plug.

To those who want to be kept alive as long as possible, or even just as long as there's some slim hope for a miraculous recovery, I respect that. But I'm willing to play the odds. If the likely outcome is misery for me and my family, and an expensive drain on them and society, pull the plug.

I agree it's hard to write rules that will satisfy everyone. But I suspect that could never happen anyway. Writing NO rules will satisfy no-one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Barnfellow View Post
After nearly 90 posts, I think a quick break for some levity might be in order, no?
Good one, thanks!
CaptTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 07:25 AM   #91
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1 View Post
Your mom wanted terminal sedation and you told her no?
No. She told us the options she had been given and asked what we thought. She seemed happy with our response.What I gave was a great condensation of what happened. I also left out how the doctor who wanted to pack her with sedatives and let her starve and dehydrate to death was retaliatory enough that we had to track him down in the hospital to get him to renew her pain meds. It was his way or he was willing to let her suffer. Remember what happened last century when it was determined there were people with worthless lives.
indymom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 07:36 AM   #92
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Nemo2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,368
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTom View Post

Breathing is not living. Living means being able to DO something
When my late wife was dying of small cell carcinoma, her doctor sounded me out on the idea of putting her on a ventilator; I told him that I wouldn't do that to her....if he said they could cure her, then anything.....but keeping her artificially 'breathing'..not a chance.

He appeared relieved, so I presume it was one of those questions that they have to ask.
__________________
"Exit, pursued by a bear."

The Winter's Tale, William Shakespeare
Nemo2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 11:51 AM   #93
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Western NC
Posts: 2,626
Quote:
Originally Posted by indymom View Post
No. She told us the options she had been given and asked what we thought. She seemed happy with our response.What I gave was a great condensation of what happened. I also left out how the doctor who wanted to pack her with sedatives and let her starve and dehydrate to death was retaliatory enough that we had to track him down in the hospital to get him to renew her pain meds. It was his way or he was willing to let her suffer. Remember what happened last century when it was determined there were people with worthless lives.
I'm sorry you didn't have Hospice available to you.
ncbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 12:01 PM   #94
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
HI Bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,183
I watched and listened to my mom decline cognitively, over a period of something like 7 or 9 years; she had progressive dementia, worsened by a concussion caused by a falling tree branch. At the end, she was angry (at people trying to help her, who she considered 'controlling'), incapable of remembering how to use a cordless phone, unable to remember who to call to get groceries, etc. Until the second to the last day of her life, she was angry at being placed in a memory care unit (which only lasted 2 weeks); she wanted to live at home, but could not because she had broken her pelvis and could not feed, clothe, or dress herself. I'm not sure whether she would have chosen to end her own life with drugs, but I'm guessing she would.

If I'm ever in that situation, please end my life quickly and painlessly, or let me do it myself...no need to go on taking up space while suffering, at least for me. Thanks!
HI Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 12:14 PM   #95
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,439
Midpack--my deepest sympathies on the death of your father.

Reading these stories makes me so grateful for the way my Dads choice was handled--at his last ER visit, he told the dr he was done and wanted to go home. Hospice was called and they took over. Dad was sent home, siblings and I were there to administer his pain meds and care for him, and he passed peacefully within 2 days.
He had a POLST and had been in and out of rehab for almost 2 years.
__________________
You are no longer in a savings mode.
You are now in a slow spend down mode.
pacergal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 12:19 PM   #96
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
ExFlyBoy5's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Country Living
Posts: 5,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by HNL Bill View Post
I watched and listened to my mom decline cognitively, over a period of something like 7 or 9 years; she had progressive dementia, worsened by a concussion caused by a falling tree branch. At the end, she was angry (at people trying to help her, who she considered 'controlling'), incapable of remembering how to use a cordless phone, unable to remember who to call to get groceries, etc. Until the second to the last day of her life, she was angry at being placed in a memory care unit (which only lasted 2 weeks); she wanted to live at home, but could not because she had broken her pelvis and could not feed, clothe, or dress herself. I'm not sure whether she would have chosen to end her own life with drugs, but I'm guessing she would.

If I'm ever in that situation, please end my life quickly and painlessly, or let me do it myself...no need to go on taking up space while suffering, at least for me. Thanks!
Sounds similar to my Mom and her fight with dementia. "Thankfully", COPD killed her before the dementia did, but the effects of dementia were absolutely heart breaking. A few months before she died, she had made a comment about going to bed and wishing that she wouldn't wake up the next morning...it was a bold, sad statement. A few days after that, she started back to the bedroom and stopped short to ask my Dad, "where is the bedroom?" The worst part (to me) about her condition was that I think she *knew* that there was an issue...she wasn't in ignorant bliss. Her visions/hallucinations bothered her and you could see how it confused her so much.
__________________
"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything I thought it could be." -Peter Gibbons
Retired in 2014 at the Ripe Age of 40
ExFlyBoy5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 12:29 PM   #97
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 412
My sister's FIL received a diagnosis of cancer when he was 76. They wanted to start him on chemo and radiation but he said nope. He picked a date and announced to the family that he would die on that day and if they wanted to come say goodbye they had until then to do it. He had some meds saved up and on d-day, he went into the bedroom, shut the door and did his exit. Everyone in the family was OK with his decision even though he could have fought the cancer for a while. His wife had died the year before. It's a tough decision, but I believe it was his right to go when and how he wanted to. It was a little surprising because he was a practicing Catholic but he also was a very smart, analytical person and I guess reason won out.
TwoByFour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 12:49 PM   #98
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 16,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoByFour View Post
My sister's FIL received a diagnosis of cancer when he was 76. They wanted to start him on chemo and radiation but he said nope.
I’m convinced I’d make the same decision under those circumstances at age 76. I only hope there’s a humane DWD option if I find myself in that situation. Extra weeks, months or even years with poor/no quality of life doesn’t appeal to me, and I’d rather my “$ residual” goes to family, friends, and charities - NOT wasted on medical expenses to prolong the inevitable. YMMV
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 50% equity funds / 30% bond funds / 20% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 01:19 PM   #99
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 15,647
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoByFour View Post
I don't care if I am only half-demented, pull the plug. I mean really, what kind of a life am I going to have between the time of being half-demented to full dementia? It is not as if I will have tons more great experiences to take to the grave with me. I am probably unusual in this sentiment, but I think the greatest departing gift I can give to the world is to get out of the way of the next generation.



I guess you do not know people who have demetia.... my mom is there... but she is still living a good life and enjoys what she is doing... as we say 'she is living in the moment'.... she is not making any new memories as that part of her brain disappeared when she became septic a few years ago... but the rest of her mind still is working.... she is considered high functioning...


If you just met her you would have no idea she was demented... she can tell you stories about her youth and all the interesting things she has done over the years... you might notice when she started to tell you them over again and again, but right off the bat you would not know...



She loves playing games... heck, the staff where she is tells us she insists on them doing something every day.. and I go and play parcheesi with her all the time and she still wins at times...


Why would I want to take away her enjoyment in the last years of her life?


Now, there are some people there that look comatose and basically drool all day in a wheelchair... have to be fed... can do nothing on their own... not in pain mind you, but just a body with no mind IMO... I would NOT want to be subjected to this and from what my mom has told me over the years she would also not want to be this way...
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 01:33 PM   #100
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 29,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by indymom View Post
No. She told us the options she had been given and asked what we thought. She seemed happy with our response.What I gave was a great condensation of what happened. I also left out how the doctor who wanted to pack her with sedatives and let her starve and dehydrate to death was retaliatory enough that we had to track him down in the hospital to get him to renew her pain meds. It was his way or he was willing to let her suffer. Remember what happened last century when it was determined there were people with worthless lives.
OK - Thanks for your clarification.
__________________
Retired since summer 1999.
audreyh1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Any laws you don't regret or think you should break? ArkTinkerer Life after FIRE 99 12-04-2014 03:40 PM
Anyone else watch the HBO "Death with Dignity" documentary? donheff FIRE Related Public Policy 21 05-30-2011 12:28 PM
401K discrimination laws ? Cut-Throat Other topics 15 01-15-2005 07:14 PM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:12 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.