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06-13-2018, 02:48 PM
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#21
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 8,309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breedlove
This is a ploy , they want to sell the unit and install it . Just like a John Deere riding mower from HD . If you go to a JD exclusive dealer he will tell you the JD from HD is not the same as the same model number he sells.
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In my neck of the woods, the Deere dealers don't sell the same models that HD sells. They are very similar units with minor differences (e.g. 20 HP vs 22) and unique model numbers.
__________________
...with no reasonable expectation for ER, I'm just here auditing the AP class.Retired 8/1/15.
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06-13-2018, 04:30 PM
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#22
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by folivier
A better option but one that is not accepted by builders and HVAC guys is to put the evaporator unit outside with the compressor and duct the air from there into the attic for distribution to the rooms. The high heat and thermal shock from the evaporator unit going from hot to cold in a couple seconds cause problems. Especially the way they are built currently. I just had to replace my 3 YO evaporator unit due to leaking.
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I'm not following this. Wouldn't the evaporator be hotter if it was outside the house?
The HVAC in my DD's previous apartment was all outside like that. I think the big problem is those big ducts have lots of surface area exposed going from outside to inside. With the evaporator inside, you only have a small copper line to insulate.
Not making sense to me. If it is 'better' why isn't it accepted?
-ERD50
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06-13-2018, 04:43 PM
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#23
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
I'm not following this. Wouldn't the evaporator be hotter if it was outside the house?
The HVAC in my DD's previous apartment was all outside like that. I think the big problem is those big ducts have lots of surface area exposed going from outside to inside. With the evaporator inside, you only have a small copper line to insulate.
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I'll let foliver speak for himself, but when I read it, I figured that in summer the outside air was cooler than the air in a hot (unconditioned) attic.
I guess the heat gain/loss to a remote evap coil could be minimized by running those ducts largely in conditioned spaces, just pop them outside to the evap coil.
One significant challenge is that a high-efficiency furnace can't be easily operated in a freezing environment, as the condensate will freeze. So, if the furnace fan also circulates the cool air (as in most residential systems) you'd still need to leave the furnace inside the house, which complicates the installation even further.
If it is practical, rather than move the AC evap coil outside and have all the extra to/fro ductwork, it might be easier in many cases to build an insulated shell around an attic HVAC installation, open it up to the conditioned inside air, and consider it part of the building thermal/pressure envelope. That will also help minimize losses from all the ductwork and equipment inside that shell.
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06-13-2018, 04:58 PM
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#24
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
I'll let foliver speak for himself, but when I read it, I figured that in summer the outside air was cooler than the air in a hot (unconditioned) attic. ....
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OK, wasn't considering an evaporator in the hot attic, since that just seems wrong in so many ways!
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
If it is practical, rather than move the AC evap coil outside and have all the extra to/fro ductwork, it might be easier in many cases to build an insulated shell around an attic HVAC installation, open it up to the conditioned inside air, and consider it part of the building thermal/pressure envelope. That will also help minimize losses from all the ductwork and equipment inside that shell.
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Or just have a mechanical closet for the evaporator and air handler on the first floor, in conditioned space, and ducts in the conditioned space. Like you say, if you have a furnace as well, that can got there too.
For me, floor space isn't at such a premium that I would want all this stuff in the attic. I've lived in places w/o a basement, and a closet for this stuff (plus water heater) isn't all that large, plus there enough extra space for a few small shelves for storage of misc stuff.
-ERD50
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06-13-2018, 05:10 PM
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#25
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Richards
Posts: 1,245
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I probably know more about Mini splits then most people would ever want to know . I Know about the Mr Cool , out of Kentucky it is a DIY unit and is gaining popularity but remember any mistake by me as the installer and I am screwed . The lines are charged and it looks very simple to hook up . I was not brand sensitive I was even looking at Chigo a very very cheap import . As I said I am finding out there are over 50 brand names of A/C units manufactured by no more than 8 manufactures . I have heard about people not even purging the system with a vacuum pump , but Freon and water make acid and we all know what acid does to steel . These new inverter heat pump systems are incredible.
My Rant is that A/C is a controlled business . I hope more companies like Mr. Cool come about.
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06-13-2018, 05:56 PM
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#26
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kerrville,Tx
Posts: 3,361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
Indeed. If you can find a good independent small HVAC service company, they will offer the best service and price.
Hmmm. They developed largely as an answer to a European/Asian situation (a large stock of existing homes built with no forced air ducting and no good way to retrofit that ducting). Mini-spilts can be a good answer to some niche situations in the US, but it is generally impractical to use them to supply conditioned air to every habitable room in a home, as is commonly done with a ducted system. Having a home with 8-15 separate evap coils, control units, fans, drains, plus the outside condenser would be very expensive and a full employment program for HVAC service folks. The single outside condenser and singe inside air handler (maybe two in a 2 story home) of a typical ducted system is a good, serviceable, practical approach for the vast majority of present homes and new construction.
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Mini splits make sense in homes that had hot water or steam heat, with there for no duct work and no chases to install it. For example the house I grew up with in MI had hot water heat, and to cool it its either mini splits or window units. (not that you need cooling that much of the time near Detroit).
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06-13-2018, 06:29 PM
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#27
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Richards
Posts: 1,245
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They are starting to put mini splits in new homes in College Station . One compressor with multi heads . The old line A/C guys hate the mini splits . They want to force the package units
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06-13-2018, 07:21 PM
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#28
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breedlove
I probably know more about Mini splits then most people would ever want to know . I Know about the Mr Cool , out of Kentucky it is a DIY unit and is gaining popularity but remember any mistake by me as the installer and I am screwed . The lines are charged and it looks very simple to hook up . I was not brand sensitive I was even looking at Chigo a very very cheap import . As I said I am finding out there are over 50 brand names of A/C units manufactured by no more than 8 manufactures . I have heard about people not even purging the system with a vacuum pump , but Freon and water make acid and we all know what acid does to steel . These new inverter heat pump systems are incredible.
My Rant is that A/C is a controlled business . I hope more companies like Mr. Cool come about.
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I installed two of the Mr Cool units on our house. I think the base unit is made by Pioneer. Pretty easy to install. They have been working great for a couple years now. I like the phone app where I can control units from internet. If you do have an install problem you can call Ingrams or any local heating/cooling company to help with the install.
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06-13-2018, 07:43 PM
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#29
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 17,203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
OK, wasn't considering an evaporator in the hot attic, since that just seems wrong in so many ways!
Or just have a mechanical closet for the evaporator and air handler on the first floor, in conditioned space, and ducts in the conditioned space. Like you say, if you have a furnace as well, that can got there too.
For me, floor space isn't at such a premium that I would want all this stuff in the attic. I've lived in places w/o a basement, and a closet for this stuff (plus water heater) isn't all that large, plus there enough extra space for a few small shelves for storage of misc stuff.
-ERD50
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You have not seen my 5 ton AC unit... the inside part covers at minimum 10 ft when you add the air intake and exhaust (to and from the house)... and the duct work is also huge... I have one line that is either 14 or 16 inches and a few 12 inch...
My house is zoned at the plenum.... so have dampers controlling where the air goes...
It would take my DDs bedroom to hold all the stuff that is up there....
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06-13-2018, 07:45 PM
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#30
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kerrville,Tx
Posts: 3,361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breedlove
They are starting to put mini splits in new homes in College Station . One compressor with multi heads . The old line A/C guys hate the mini splits . They want to force the package units
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Because the minisplits eliminate the need for ductwork with (in the south at least) several square foot taken up by the return duct which is near the floor, as well as adding a lot of clutter to the attic, (as well as compared to the traditional systems being as efficient as the top of the line systems for far less money) it makes sense to use them in new construction. Also you far better zoning in the house unless you do to putting power dampers in the ducts. (Also each room can have its own thermostat)
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06-13-2018, 07:48 PM
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#31
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Richards
Posts: 1,245
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How big were your Mr. Cool's . Were they the 220v or the 110
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06-13-2018, 07:52 PM
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#32
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breedlove
How big were your Mr. Cool's . Were they the 220v or the 110
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12k btu @110v and 36k btu @ 220V
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06-13-2018, 08:03 PM
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#33
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Richards
Posts: 1,245
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I am probably going to put a 12K BTU / 110 in our guest house . I can do that myself . keep us posted how the Mr. Cool holds up . My installer did not say a word bad about them .
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06-13-2018, 08:19 PM
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#34
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
You have not seen my 5 ton AC unit... the inside part covers at minimum 10 ft when you add the air intake and exhaust (to and from the house)... and the duct work is also huge... I have one line that is either 14 or 16 inches and a few 12 inch...
My house is zoned at the plenum.... so have dampers controlling where the air goes...
It would take my DDs bedroom to hold all the stuff that is up there....
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My new A/C is 4 ton, high efficiency and variable speed - so not so different in size from yours (it gets hot here, just not for a long time or as hot as Texas, but we still need a big unit for the hot days we do get). The evaporator fits right inside the plenum above the furnace - it's not huge.
As far as the duct work in/out - that's shared with the furnace, so it isn't anything extra. I just measured - the actual floor 'footprint', furnace & AC total is less than 2.5' by 4' - that includes space for the return duct coming down on the side (the treated air blows out the top), the gas pipes and electrical coming in on the other side - it could have been tighter if needed.
We don't have multi-zones, I guess that would add some to the duct work, 2 smaller sets versus one larger set. I'm guessing it looks so huge is that they had the empty space, so they did nothing to try to keep it together, it's all spread out? I think maybe you are counting ducts that would be there regardless of where the evaporator was installed?
-ERD50
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06-13-2018, 08:27 PM
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#35
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breedlove
The old line A/C guys hate the mini splits . They want to force the package units
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They should >love< the mini-splits! They can charge customers more to install them (compared to a "regular" split system with a single condenser and a single evaporator), and the ongoing service and repair of 2-4 times as many fans, control boards, evaporator coils, refrigerant lines, etc is going to be a boon that lasts for decades.
In 2016 the US signed on to the Kigali agreement that calls for the phase-out of most HFC refrigerants, including those commonly used in residential split systems and mini-split systems. Different countries have different timeframes, and the exact phaseout of R-410A in the US hasn't been determined yet, as far as I know. Also, the replacement for R-410A hasn't been determined yet. But we know that when we transitioned from R-22 to R-410A, nearly every home evap coil and most of the refrigerant lines had to be replaced, too (largely due to incompatibilities of the lubricants each refrigerant used). There's a good chance that something similar will happen in a decade or so if/when R-410A goes away. And before it gets phased out entirely, it may get very expensive (as we've seen with R-22). If/when replacements of refrigerant lines, evap coils, etc are eventually required due to this new refrigerant, folks with mini-split systems-- 2-8 inside units and refrigerant lines run through the interior of their wall studs, etc, are going to be in a "different situation" than folks who have one inside unit located in a utility room or closet with one set of lines going directly to the condenser unit outside.
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06-13-2018, 08:31 PM
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#36
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Richards
Posts: 1,245
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That sounds like a lot of Air conditioner !
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06-13-2018, 08:44 PM
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#37
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 413
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I've purchased and installed 15 mini-split systems purchased from GODUCTLESS.com for friends and family.
If you are somewhat mechanically enclined, they are very basic to install. The key to a successful install is to vacuum the system to 500 micron or less, using a Hvac quality vacuum pump, and measure with a micron guage. Example for DIY cost, an 18kbtu single inside head 22 seer inverter system costs about $2000 (LG Brand). Goductless.com sells many brands. You can buy a new vacuum pump online for $350, and a good quality micron guage for 200.
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06-13-2018, 10:09 PM
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#38
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Spending the Kids Inheritance and living in Chicago
Posts: 17,010
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I saw a bunch of those things on apartment balconies in Barcelona, now I know what they are and how they work.
Possibly they had them due to window A/C not being allowed or fitting windows, or people just didn't want to block off a lot of their windows.
__________________
Fortune favors the prepared mind. ... Louis Pasteur
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06-13-2018, 10:33 PM
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#39
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kerrville,Tx
Posts: 3,361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunset
I saw a bunch of those things on apartment balconies in Barcelona, now I know what they are and how they work.
Possibly they had them due to window A/C not being allowed or fitting windows, or people just didn't want to block off a lot of their windows.
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There was even one on the house where Osama Bin Laden was found. Note that compared to a window unit, the mini splits are also far more efficient.
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06-14-2018, 05:17 AM
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#40
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Western NC
Posts: 4,610
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With their inverter compressors, mini-splits are efficient enough to be used in off-grid solar-powered homes.
As another poster notes, even the cheapest mini-splits have SEER ratings comparable to high-end traditional split units (here most installs are for the latter are the minimum SEER 13)
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