Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
European energy situation
Old 08-01-2022, 12:58 AM   #1
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Anytown
Posts: 491
European energy situation

I have not seen a thread on this so apologies if there already is one. I also don't want this to turn into a political discussion of climate change and so forth. I believe climate chaneg is real and needs to be addressed over the medium to long term. But I am talking about the short term problem pending this winter.

Europe is facing an energy emergency in the short term by Russia potentially shutting off their supply of natural gas and other fuels.

So my question is, why are we (as in the civilized world not just the US) not comtemplating a "Berlin airlift" to supply Europe with fuel, natural gas, and coal? Yes, I know climate change and all that make this a political topic but I am focused on the next few years here. The US has plenty of coal and the world has so much excess natural gas that it has to be burned off from oil wells.

The US Navy is under order to remove something like half a billion gallons of diesel, jet fuel, and gasoline as quickly as possible from its Red Hill fuel storage facility in Hawaii.

Why is the world not organizing an operation like the Berlin airlift to supply Europe with the fossil fuels it needs in the short term to make up for Russian shortfalls? It most likely would be a sealift of course but I think you get the idea. The Berlin airlift was as much about showing the Soviets that we had the capability to overcome their blockade as it was about actually supplying Berliners. Let's show Putin that the world can overcome his threats and keep Europe warm and lighted this winter.

Solar, wind, and nuclear plants cannot be built quickly. But power plants can be converted to another fuel in weeks or months. Months is normal, weeks is probably achievable.

I guess this is why our grandparents were the greatest generation. They mustered up to solve big problems.
SecondAttempt is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 08-01-2022, 06:43 AM   #2
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
DFW_M5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: DFW
Posts: 6,990
Hasn't the US already released from our strategic petroleum reserves and sent product to europe, and even China. The later of which blows my mind. I also assume that exports are continuing through the normal sales channels of oil and gas companies.
__________________
Doing things today that others won't, to do things tomorrow that others can't. Of course I'm referring to workouts, not robbing banks.
DFW_M5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 06:46 AM   #3
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
The Cosmic Avenger's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 2,159
The current level of reserves is about 29 days of fuel...just for the US. I haven't looked up foreign consumption rates, but we likely wouldn't have enough to get ourselves and all NATO/EU countries through more than a couple of weeks, especially during the Northern hemisphere winter months, and then Russia could probably charge whatever they wanted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strate...United_States)
__________________
-Looking to FIRE in the mid-2020s, which would be our mid-50s.
The Cosmic Avenger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 06:56 AM   #4
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Car-Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Citizen of Texas
Posts: 7,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by DFW_M5 View Post
Hasn't the US already released from our strategic petroleum reserves and sent product to europe, and even China. The later of which blows my mind.
+1 I keep hearing that from a number of sources... Doesn't seem to make any sense to me either, but what do I know.
__________________
I don't know how to act my age since I've never been this old before.
Car-Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 07:13 AM   #5
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
VanWinkle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Morton
Posts: 2,152
In before the lock!!!!!
__________________
Retired May 13th(Friday) 2016 at age 61.
VanWinkle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 07:33 AM   #6
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Huntsville, AL/Helen, GA
Posts: 5,748
I hear so many complaints about the current price of gasoline here. I think I saw gasoline yesterday at less than $3.80 a gallon.

When we were in London last month, a cabbie said gasoline was over $8.50 a U.S. gallon equivalent--more than double what we pay.

Now the English and Europeans have always had reasons to complain about fuel prices. They've always been taxed to death, and had autobahns galore--going from nowhere to nowhere.

But when the Europeans, and especially the Germans, got in bed with Putin it bordered on economic suicide. It's up to the EU to get out of their mess, and it's up to us to take care of American needs. That's about as political as I dare go on this retirement website.
Bamaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 07:42 AM   #7
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Car-Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Citizen of Texas
Posts: 7,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamaman View Post
I hear so many complaints about the current price of gasoline here. I think I saw gasoline yesterday at less than $3.80 a gallon.

When we were in London last month, a cabbie said gasoline was over $8.50 a U.S. gallon equivalent--more than double what we pay.

Now the English and Europeans have always had reasons to complain about fuel prices. They've always been taxed to death, and had autobahns galore--going from nowhere to nowhere.

But when the Europeans, and especially the Germans, got in bed with Putin it bordered on economic suicide. It's up to the EU to get out of their mess, and it's up to us to take care of American needs. That's about as political as I dare go on this retirement website.
Highlighted above by me... I personally have no problem with the US helping the EU (or UK ) with their energy problems after the US needs are satisfied and at reasonable prices.
__________________
I don't know how to act my age since I've never been this old before.
Car-Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 07:43 AM   #8
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 33,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondAttempt View Post
Europe is facing an energy emergency in the short term by Russia potentially shutting off their supply of natural gas and other fuels.

So my question is, why are we (as in the civilized world not just the US) not comtemplating a "Berlin airlift" to supply Europe with fuel, natural gas, and coal? Yes, I know climate change and all that make this a political topic but I am focused on the next few years here. The US has plenty of coal and the world has so much excess natural gas that it has to be burned off from oil wells.

I have not worked in the energy industry and have no direct knowledge of the intricacies of energy transport, but don't think it is so easily done.

First, there's the problem of increasing supply so we have extra to export. Yes, the US has a lot of coal, but one does not simply restart old coal mines to get more, given the opposition to this fossil fuel. Plus, where do we get more coal miners so quick?

For Europe to receive LNG (liquified natural gas), they need LNG ship terminals, and these are not built overnight. Germany is scrambling to build another floating terminal, and hopes to have it done later this year. In the past, talk about building LNG terminals got people all riled up, because they believed the money should be spent on RE.





As I said before, it's very hard to rely on RE to stay warm in the winter. You can drive EVs, and cook with electricity, but for heating most of the time, people need to burn something. Unless you have nuclear power, it's much better to burn nat gas than heating oil or, gasp, coal.

Makes me wonder how the world is going to survive when fossil fuel runs out. Russia keeps Siberian livable in the winter through the use of copious natural gas. And they still have tons of it to export to China.


__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)

"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 08:03 AM   #9
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Telly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,183
A new LNG export terminal came online in the last year or so in LA on the Gulf Coast. There may be two new ones. They are a major investment, and as mentioned, take a long time to build. Natural Gas in large volumes needs to be piped to them. Some of the gas is used to run turbines that run the compressors, and cooling systems to dump the large amount of heat created in the process (think of a gigantic super-pressure Air Conditioning condenser unit!). And LNG IS being shipped to Europe.

About oil from the Strategic Reserve being shipped overseas - Oil is fungible. When the old restriction on shipping crude from the US was lifted, oil's fungibility increased.

The US has a refining problem... a major east coast refinery was shut down, never to run again. Other units were turned down that were old and needed maintenance. Investors do NOT want oil companies to invest in production or refining increases, as that uses $$ that won't go to shareholders, and would lower the price of oil/refined products, which lowers the companies profitability. So in some respects, "we have seen the enemy, and they is us".
__________________
-- Telly, the D-I-Y guy --
Two fools dancing on the hands of time
Telly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 08:26 AM   #10
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
frayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chattanooga
Posts: 3,445
The situation in Europe proves the importance of having a balanced energy portfolio of gas, coal, nuclear, hydro, wind, tide, solar, etc., etc. Having each to the scale needed to offset outages of the other is the problem and not always cost effective but sure beats freezing to death or trashing your economies because you pretty much sole sourced the majority of your energy needs from an geopolitically unreliable partner. On the other hand I can't see Russia cutting off its nose to spite its face this winter either. It needs to sell gas for revenue for its economy and war effort. All that said, hopefully the situation in Ukraine will be resolved before winter sets in and then, problem solved at least for the short term, or next time.
__________________
"My investing style is beauty-in-simplicity, set it and forget it with index funds, along with a little dabbling around the edges for fun and profit" credit to Markola.
frayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 08:42 AM   #11
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,051
The europeans have mis-managed their strategic situation for a couple of generations on both energy and the military. They are now scrambling to find tactical solutions to strategic problems that will take a generation to sort out.

When WWII started it took years for both the UK and the US to rearm. The lack of military manufacturing infrastructure weighed very much on the minds of both Churchill and Roosevelt as they formulated their plans. Both knew that even if their countries were fully mobilized it would take years to build the necessary infrastructure. When we hear about building a bomber in an hour or a Liberty boat in four days, that was the end product of years of manic infrastructure development. As a result, the allied plans by necessity included waiting years to retake Europe and to put the Pacific on the back-burner, even though that meant all those occupied and besieged countries could not be liberated during those years. Meanwhile Russia was taking it on the chin because Hitler's western flank was relatively secure. Stalin was constantly agitating for the allies to move in the west in order to take the pressure off of Russia, but Churchill and Roosevelt stood fast and were unwilling to commit to a major engagement until the military was actually ready.

The European energy problem cannot be assuaged by rowing the boat real hard for six months. They are in for a rough road and Putin will have significant leverage for several years.

My $0.02.
__________________
Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity.
Closet_Gamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 08:42 AM   #12
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Chuckanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 14,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Car-Guy View Post
Highlighted above by me... I personally have no problem with the US helping the EU (or UK ) with their energy problems after the US needs are satisfied and at reasonable prices.
Perhaps the US can help Europe with their energy cost issues, and they can help us with our medical care cost issues?
__________________
The worst decisions are usually made in times of anger and impatience.

Self proclaimed President for Life of Outliers United.
Chuckanut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 08:56 AM   #13
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Car-Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Citizen of Texas
Posts: 7,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckanut View Post
Perhaps the US can help Europe with their energy cost issues, and they can help us with our medical care cost issues?
I'm afraid the "medical" lobby in the US is far to strong now to let that happen.
__________________
I don't know how to act my age since I've never been this old before.
Car-Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 09:17 AM   #14
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: the prairies
Posts: 4,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondAttempt View Post
I have not seen a thread on this so apologies if there already is one. I also don't want this to turn into a political discussion of climate change and so forth. I believe climate chaneg is real and needs to be addressed over the medium to long term. But I am talking about the short term problem pending this winter.

Europe is facing an energy emergency in the short term by Russia potentially shutting off their supply of natural gas and other fuels.

So my question is, why are we (as in the civilized world not just the US) not comtemplating a "Berlin airlift" to supply Europe with fuel, natural gas, and coal? Yes, I know climate change and all that make this a political topic but I am focused on the next few years here. The US has plenty of coal and the world has so much excess natural gas that it has to be burned off from oil wells.

The US Navy is under order to remove something like half a billion gallons of diesel, jet fuel, and gasoline as quickly as possible from its Red Hill fuel storage facility in Hawaii.

Why is the world not organizing an operation like the Berlin airlift to supply Europe with the fossil fuels it needs in the short term to make up for Russian shortfalls? It most likely would be a sealift of course but I think you get the idea. The Berlin airlift was as much about showing the Soviets that we had the capability to overcome their blockade as it was about actually supplying Berliners. Let's show Putin that the world can overcome his threats and keep Europe warm and lighted this winter.

Solar, wind, and nuclear plants cannot be built quickly. But power plants can be converted to another fuel in weeks or months. Months is normal, weeks is probably achievable.

I guess this is why our grandparents were the greatest generation. They mustered up to solve big problems.
If you don't want to make a topic about climate change, don't mention it twice and then say no one should talk about it.
Music Lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 09:17 AM   #15
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 33,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckanut View Post
Perhaps the US can help Europe with their energy cost issues, and they can help us with our medical care cost issues?
I don't see how they can help us with our medical costs. The difference is in how to provide healthcare, not in miraculous drugs or surgical techniques. We could apply their philosophy, but we don't wanna.

And speaking of energy costs, we may have problems of our own brewing, and nobody wants to admit to it yet.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)

"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 10:49 AM   #16
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
DFW_M5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: DFW
Posts: 6,990
When I think of new energy initiatives, things like this ring my bell vs solar/windmills:
https://www.techworm.net/2022/07/us-...or-design.html
__________________
Doing things today that others won't, to do things tomorrow that others can't. Of course I'm referring to workouts, not robbing banks.
DFW_M5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 12:09 PM   #17
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,311
* Europe has been decommissioning viable (nuke and coal) power plants before their useful life is up just to go "green" with LNG imported from Russia. They put themselves in this mess. It's the same as California refusing to allow desalination as a water source and draining reservoirs into the ocean but still demanding water from farmers and other states.
The European energy shortage is a choice, not a crisis for the world to pay for.

* NatGas prices in the US were surging in early June due to exports to Europe until there was an explosion at an LNG export terminal in Texas that prevented exports of 2billion cubic feet per day. Since that gas was now "trapped" in the US markets, US NatGas prices leveled off.

* There was an article yesterday where the last boat load of coal has been delivered to Hawaii... After Sept Hawaii is shutting down a perfectly useful coal plant that produces something like 16% of Oahu's electricity. There is nothing coming on line in the foreseeable future to backfill the generating capacity (except possibly and oil burner that I can't find a commissioning schedule for...)

* Heads-up: The next appendage being cut off after energy is food. Nitrogen (primary crop fertilizer) has been declared both a green house gas (via NO) and a pollutant. Google what that policy is going to do to farmers in the Netherlands (30% to 90% reduction in farming depending on location). The Ukraine isn't even in the top 10 of food exporters... The Netherlands is #6.
**Last week Canada announced 30% reductions in fertilizer emissions over the next 7 years.
**In April one of the major rail companies halted shipments of fertilizer out of Louisiana. The fertilizer manufacturer requested the feds broker a shipping deal. The federal governments response was "This is an opportunity for farmers to go organic".
**LNG is the primary feedstock for making fertilizer.

These shortages are all by choice and these are the choices being made for you.
Spock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 01:08 PM   #18
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 33,273
Ugh!

I guess the world will have to learn to be hotter in the summer, colder in the winter, drive less, travel less, and also eat less.

With such gloomy outlook, how do countries help each other? Everybody for himself, there's nothing to share. Bleak!
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)

"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 01:34 PM   #19
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: the prairies
Posts: 4,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spock View Post
These shortages are all by choice and these are the choices being made for you.
Yup.
Music Lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2022, 02:33 PM   #20
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,311
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
Ugh!

I guess the world will have to learn to be hotter in the summer, colder in the winter, drive less, travel less, and also eat less.

With such gloomy outlook, how do countries help each other? Everybody for himself, there's nothing to share. Bleak!
Countries could help each other if they acted independently and thus got different results.
Somebody up could provide to somebody down.
But when they are all following the same playbook (ex. farming with no fertilizer or livestock) with the same goals at the same time, everybody goes down until a new lower standard of living/population equilibrium is established. Like investing, diversity is essential.
Spock is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Going by the energy guide these two water tanks use the same amount of energy. How? FANOFJESUS Other topics 21 12-15-2019 06:22 PM
Google European Center in Zurich Eagle43 Other topics 2 07-15-2008 08:05 AM
Higher CD Interest Rate on USD in European Banks Trek FIRE and Money 12 08-11-2007 01:34 PM
european stocks and the dollar mathjak107 FIRE and Money 2 12-12-2006 06:47 PM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:58 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.