Family Life and Female Officer?

[Leslie]

On the contrary, Azanon Sr. I think Nords is nearly always on target.

[unclemick]

The little niece had a lotta fun packing her 45 leading armed boarding parties looking for oil smugglers in the Persian Gulf - although coming home I got the impression her 'bulletproof' attitude altered somewhat - since they refueled right before the USS Cole.

What is the definition of : fail to make it to retirement

[azanon]

Quote:

I've read that very few academy grads make it to retirement.* I'd like to see the numbers but I wouldn't be surprised if it's less than 10%.

Nords, you really need to stop talking about something you know nothing about.* *Well over half of the entering freshman class graduate.* *I trust AV8 to confirm that.

.......

AV8, i'm compelled to at least respect your opinion on the sexual miscondut since you are an Academy graduate.* *But I dont agree with it.* *And your statement that you believe its actually less likely than at a civilian institution, I just dont see how you can see it that way.* *Have you forgotten the power 3rd-1st classmen have over plebes and how that could be used against a woman?* Have you forgotten how they tend to not be able to keep up in BCT and how that pissed everyone else off?* * Can you not see how they are heighened targets in a 10 to 1 male environment where you cant leave the campus for 2 years to deal with sexual frustration?* Have you forgotten how the USAFA is effectively isolated from the world and, that being the case, would easily see choice #1 to sweep a reported rape under the rug and/or quietly dismiss the offending male via the honor board?*

To be an USAFA graduate, and to do something i couldnt do, I think you're pretty naive about it.* Again, less probable than at a civilian university?** You're out of your mind.

BTW, i did ask the girl i work with who graduated from West Point would she do it again, in hindsight.* *Her answer was no.

Azanon

BTW, Sam, i want you to know i did notice you didn't acknowledge my experience.

Quote:

On the contrary, Azanon Sr.* I think Nords is nearly always on target.

His USNA discussion was all over the place and i found very little of it applicable to my actual experience.* He reads books about it.* I was actually there.* And for the specific point i called him out on (his claim that less than 10% of freshmen graduate), he's wrong.* AV8 can confirm that over half of entering freshmen graduate. Maybe he's thinking of the Navy Seals, hehe.

.........

All this sexual misconduit aside, I think the service academies are ripoffs.* If you want a life of hell and isolation, then go there.* If you want to forgot how to socially interact in the real world, go there.* If you want to learn how to be a pompous jerk, go there.* *If you want to lose all your former friends, go there.* *If you want to be told how great and elite you are daily, go there.* *If you want a chance to die in Iraq for a stupid cause and greed of Oil, go there.* *I could go on and on.*

Can you tell i'm still bitter about my experience?* *

Quote:

I've talked with dozens of people who started & dropped out of USNA before finishing the first year, and their stories are all filled with the same refrain of "I wish..."

I wish I had got the full ROTC scholarship instead.* The academy just sucked.* *I cant believe people willingly put up with that BS for 4 years.* I feel embarressed that I did for 4 months.

Get this folks; when i had finally had enough, they counseled me for 2 WEEKS before they let me go.* I must have talked with 10 different people (as part of the outprocessing procedure), and everyone of them i told them i just want the f*** out.* It was all i could do to not just go AWOL.* They were all, in effect, begging me to stay.* *I remember one of the counselors trying to tell me, like a car salesman, the "grass wasn't greener on the other side".* *He couldnt be more wrong.* My following undergraduate and graduate school years were the most enjoyable of my life and I got the degrees to boot.*

[bermondsey]

On the subject of tattoos.

"Tattoos on the head, face or throat area will continue to be banned, and any sexist, racist or gang tattoo makes potential recruits "unfit for duty", Lt Hilferty stressed."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4859478.stm

So, most tattoos are not verboten. I guess some might consider that to be progress of sorts.

[Bimmerbill]

I think it would go a long way, at least in my mind, if the army had one standard for physical fitness. Currently, we have two, one for females and one for males.

If we are going to have an integrated force to include women in combat then hold everyone to the same standard.

[Maximillion]

You teach them to look both ways before the cross the street, you put training wheels and a Bike Helmet on so they won't get hurt if they fall over, you teach them not to talk to Strangers, put them in Driver Ed, you get them through all that and now you want to paint a Bulls eye on their arse and ship them over to face people who don't want them there

A Rich Kid who never served and stole an election makes up a whole pile of propaganda, and everyone wants to go kill some poor Arab who just wants to be left alone??

A Body Bag is an Equal Opportunity Container.

I was accepted into Royal Military College, did not go, No Regrets.

I served 6 Years with the Reserves(National Guard), No Regrets.

I graduated from University, did graduate Courses at 6 universities, including University of Chicago and USC, No Regrets.

I.R.A, I.Q.A, Same cause , differant religions.

[AV8]

Az,

I respect your opinion and your perspective. *The Academy, and the military itself, were obviously not for you. *That is an acceptable and understandable position for many/most people in the country (remember, less than 1% serve in the military). * I do, however, disagree with many of your conclusions.

You are correct about graduation rates. *We started with over 1400 students and graduated just under 1000. *The typical grad rate is just around two thirds (66%). *Part of the typical "welcome" on your day of arrival is to be told to look to your left and look to your right. *Most likely one of the three people won't be here at graduation. *There are many reasons for this, such as your personal situation where you realized it wasn't for you. *If I remember correctly though, most didn't make it due to academic reasons. *Having said all that, Nords was talking about Retirement from the military at a career that spanned at least 20 years. *Apples and oranges, I think you just misread what he posted.

I told DW about this thread and specifically discussed the sexual misconduct concern. *I reiterate that neither of us, nor our many friends ever saw anything of this nature. *Based on my background can I speak to civilian universities, no. *But its my opinion that they suffer just as many problems with underage drinking and sexual assault/misconduct. *It just doesn't make the news unless it is a prominent student such as the football teams star quarterback, etc. *

Please just have an open mind about the perspective of others while continueing to offer your personal experience. *Just don't throw around absolutes that may not apply to this young lady.

I'd post more but gotta go to w@#k.

AV8

[azanon]

Listen to Max!

One of the main reasons i'm funding my boy's 529 plan (and about to start a Coverdell too) is so he dont have to get a GI bill or apply to some paid for school like a service academy so he can go die for some worthless cause.

I would never forgive myself if I didnt save for him, he took one of these options because of it, and then i lost him. * But that's just me.

Azanon

[azanon]

Quote:

If I remember correctly though, most didn't make it due to academic reasons.* Having said all that, Nords was talking about Retirement from the military at a career that spanned at least 20 years.* Apples and oranges, I think you just misread what he posted.

His career in the Navy I have no quarrel with his experiences.* But I find most all of his characterizations of the Academy to simply be inaccurate, at least from my brief experience.* *I found no errors in what you said though; no surprise given you graduated from there, except for our disagreement on the risk of sexual misconduct there.

AV8, if anything, i think my opinion is mostly getting discarded, as was obvious by the opinions that Sam chose to acknowledge.*

You're right, it wasn't for me.* I really do not get the negativism approach they take there.* I failed to see how yelling in someone's face for a year and behaving in a hateful and arrogant way was making me a better person.* Maybe you can someday explain to me how that makes people better individuals.

Azanon

[brewer12345]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azanon, Sr. * I failed to see how yelling in someone's face for a year and behaving in a hateful and arrogant way was making me a better person.* Maybe you can someday explain to me how that makes people better individuals. Azanon

I don't think making them better individuals is the point. Its an attempt to make them better soldiers.

It is also one of the many reasons I want nothing to do with any military anywhere...

[laurence]

Azanon, you went to the Air Force Academy, Nords graduated from the Naval Academy, are you saying there wouldn't be any parallels in your experiences when you say he shouldn't talk about "stuff he knows nothing about". *He also retired military, so I think he might have some relevant gems on say, retiring from the military....?

My friends at work who graduated from military academies all rated their experience positively, but this is obviously not a scientific survey.

Nonetheless, I think the coverups of sexual assault at military academies is well documented. *But this leads me to something I want to clarify. *You speak of sexual frustration, but it's also been well established that rape is an act of violence acted out sexually, not a sex act acted out violently. *

Just like more access to prostitutes wouldn't lower the number of rapes in a city, so would having access to the bar scene near academies have any affect on the animosity these young men would feel about some dang women invading their domain. *It's not about the sex.

[azanon]

Quote:

I don't think making them better individuals is the point. *Its an attempt to make them better soldiers. It is also one of the many reasons I want nothing to do with any military anywhere...

I think you're dead on Brewer. *But there is a penalty paid in that process. *One of the things I did excel at was the Pugel stick competition. *When i made it to the finals, it was the first time I realized what they had done/were doing to me. *They filled me with hate and bitterness, and I remember taking that out on everyone that dared to stand opposite of me. *I also remembered myself becoming gradually more callous and numb, and slowly turning into the hateful person opposite of me yelling in my face.

I had many fights with my older, taller brother growing up. *He won every one, except the last one; *the one he picked with me 1 month after my discharge. * I am so glad my dad got to us in time because I'm not sure when i would have stopped hurting him. * I didn't have a scratch on me from that. * They definitely did their job; *they made me a killer. *And I hate them for that.

Azanon

[azanon]

Quote:

Nords graduated from the Naval Academy

Unless i completely misunderstood, Nords did not graduate from the Naval Academy. Yes, they are practically mirror images of each other (West Point, Naval Academy, Air Force Academy), so certainly any graduate would be in a strong position to opinion about them.

[laurence]

He did, I promise. Retired Lt. Commander, drove submarines around.

[azanon]

Quote:

Retired Lt. Commander, drove submarines around.

I saw that part, but you know there's ROTC and officer's candidate school too.

[laurence]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azanon, Sr. I saw that part, but you know there's ROTC and officer's candidate school too.*

Yep, I wasn't drawing a correllary between the two, simply summing the facts I can confirm from spending a couple weeks in his stomping grounds. Plus we have people in common, it's a surprisingly small community.

[azanon]

Quote:

Yep, I wasn't drawing a correllary between the two, simply summing the facts I can confirm from spending a couple weeks in his stomping grounds. Plus we have people in common, it's a surprisingly small community.

Well, he can chime in here and clariy that point (cause i'm too lazy to go look for proof), but I'm pretty sure he is not a Naval Academy grad. My point is he could have become an officer via ROTC or OCS, and neither of those are anything like the service academy. Ok, well, there may be some similaries at OCS, but still........

[Sam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azanon, Sr. AV8, if anything, i think my opinion is mostly getting discarded, as was obvious by the opinions that Sam chose to acknowledge.*

Azanon,

I definitely did not discard your opinion.* I read each and every reply.* I must have omitted you because of the short amount of time you spent in the academy.* In retrospect, however, any experience however long or short has its worth.* My apology.

Sam

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azanon, Sr. Well, he can chime in here and clariy that point (cause i'm too lazy to go look for proof), but I'm pretty sure he is not a Naval Academy grad. My point is he could have become an officer via ROTC or OCS, and neither of those are anything like the service academy. Ok, well, there may be some similaries at OCS, but still........

Azanon, I cannot speak authoritatively for what it is like to receive a commission through a US Military Academy like Nords and others here did. But I can speak for what it is like to do so via OCS.

I was commissioned via Air Force Officer Training School (OTS) and years later served as an instructor at OTS. I would not attept to compare the level of scholastic education provided by three months of training to that of 4 years in an academy. Those who attend OTS have already earned an undergraduate degree or more and have 4 years or more of maturity under their belts. However, the basic fundamentals of taking a civillian and molding them into a military officer do not differ much from what I know of Academy training.

You described it this way:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azanon, Sr. If you want a life of hell and isolation, then go there. If you want to forgot how to socially interact in the real world, go there. If you want to learn how to be a pompous jerk, go there. If you want to lose all your former friends, go there. If you want to be told how great and elite you are daily, go there.

The fact that you obviously still do not understand the rationale behind why you were subjected to this type of environment confirms that you definitely made the right decision by not pursuing a career in the military.

[azanon]

Quote:

I definitely did not discard your opinion.* I read each and every reply.* I must have omitted you because of the short amount of time you spent in the academy.* In retrospect, however, any experience however long or short has its worth.* My apology.

Flowgirl, Maddy,* Nords, and Leslie did not go to a service academy at all.* *Maybe it was some other reason.* Apology accepted nevertheless.