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07-27-2018, 05:54 PM
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#21
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 17,203
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Also, according to my old boss who actually has both timber and cows.... when they come and take the timber they leave the land a mess...
He keeps his in timber so the taxes are REALLY LOW... but has to pay someone to 'manage' harvesting etc... he does not clear cut, but culls every once in awhile...
He said converting to pasture is a PITA... big time... and he did not convert to farming which is even worse... something has to happen with all those roots!!! Both large and small... it is not just pulling stumps...
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07-27-2018, 07:30 PM
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#22
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,863
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I've got a lot of trees on my property and have actually been approached a few times by folks that wanted to buy/clear some of the timbers (mostly pines) on my land. I never even asked them how much they'd offer since "I like the trees". I have noticed that the local taxing authority list the "estimated timber values" on my annual tax bill each year, but again, I haven't paid much attention to that either.
I have cut down a few trees myself for various reasons over the years and have usually just burned the stumps out to cleared the area. (FYI, you are not going to be able to pull a large tree stump out even with a full size farm tractor without a lot of digging and root chopping first - ask me how I know ) I guess I could buy a stump grinder or have someone do it, or rent a good size dozer or BH, but it's easy enough to burn them out for the few I've cut down. Just something else you'll need to decide on and deal with from time to time living in the county.
By the way, I've found that it's better not to tell the DW I'm going out to cut down a 50+ foot tree by myself,,,,, until after it's been done.
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Farmland with trees purchase question - brace yourself!
07-27-2018, 10:25 PM
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#23
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 157
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Farmland with trees purchase question - brace yourself!
I wouldn't buy in to something you don't understand.
I live on a farm, it's a lot of work, you have to love it.
My niece's FIL did the very same thing you are pondering.
He was an office worker, bought 200 acres of beautiful forest with a little house and nice lake.
-He sold the pine timber .
- loggers left a huge tangled mess of tree tops. Now a vine tangled ugly mess you can't walk through.
- local poachers love hunting his land, he can't respond fast enough, he has resorted to using a drone to "scare" them away.
- He doesn't understand how to use the tractor and equipment he bought.
-in all, more stress and disappointment than happiness.
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07-28-2018, 02:07 PM
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#24
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Western NC
Posts: 4,607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnhkc
I have a question for y'all about buying land with trees.
I found some property in central Missouri. The property has a house of approx 1600 sqft on about 150 acres of land. The land is mostly covered in trees, maybe 130 acres.
I'm thinking I could buy the land for $400K, sell my house for $180K (100% equity), sell the trees for $260K then lease out the resulting cleared land for $20K/yr ($180 per acre per year). I net $40K plus $20K/yr and my cost of living is lower.
I am assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that trees would be worth $2000 per acre and that tree buyers would clear everything including the stumps. I'm also assuming that I don't have to "do anything" to make the cleared land suitable to lease for growing crops.
I know nothing about trees or farming. I'm a tech guy.
Does all of this seem plausible or is this one of those hare-brained ideas that only makes sense while sitting in an Aeron chair on the internet in an air-conditioned room while surfing the net with too many tabs open?
After you stop laughing, please tell me where my assumptions are incorrect.
Thank you.
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You might just buy a regular farm if you want to live in a small home on a lot of land.
In my state as long as your farm generates $1,000/year in revenue you only pay property tax on your home & the land it sits on.
Friends of the family have a 50+ acre farm where they pay under $1,000/year in property tax.
Farm buildings & equipment are exempt as long as you're "farming" - they sell hay & goats to meet the above limit.
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07-28-2018, 04:27 PM
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#25
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: An Un-Organized Township of Maine
Posts: 801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnhkc
I have a question for y'all about buying land with trees.
I found some property in central Missouri. The property has a house of approx 1600 sqft on about 150 acres of land. The land is mostly covered in trees, maybe 130 acres.
I'm thinking I could buy the land for $400K, sell my house for $180K (100% equity), sell the trees for $260K then lease out the resulting cleared land for $20K/yr ($180 per acre per year). I net $40K plus $20K/yr and my cost of living is lower.
I am assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that trees would be worth $2000 per acre
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Are these 'timber' trees?
What species are they and do they have any value?
You need to hire a 'forester' to walk through this parcel and give you an assessment of the trees.
Quote:
... and that tree buyers would clear everything including the stumps
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In my area, most will cut and haul the trees. But they will leave behind a huge mess [branches, chips, bark, ruts AND stumps]. A few will clean-up after themselves, but those who do will charge you for it.
Quote:
... I'm also assuming that I don't have to "do anything" to make the cleared land suitable to lease for growing crops.
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If you can find a crew that will remove the stumps, it will leave the land looking like a WWII battlefield filled with bomb craters.
You will need a dozer and maybe a grader [along with 1,000 manhours] to make it somewhat level again.
Quote:
... I know nothing about trees or farming. I'm a tech guy.
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I own 150 acres of woodlot. In a state that is 92% forest. Forestry is a big deal here. But the timber industry has died. Even here, when I go to buy a 2X4 it is imported from Canada. It is cheaper to import than is it to harvest locally.
Quote:
... After you stop laughing, please tell me where my assumptions are incorrect.
Thank you.
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Seriously I am not laughing.
It took me 10 years of owning this land to finally get all up to speed on the process.
__________________
Retired at 42 and I have been enjoying retirement for 18 years [so far].
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07-28-2018, 04:35 PM
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#26
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: An Un-Organized Township of Maine
Posts: 801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Car-Guy
... I have cut down a few trees myself for various reasons over the years and have usually just burned the stumps out to cleared the area. (FYI, you are not going to be able to pull a large tree stump out even with a full size farm tractor without a lot of digging and root chopping first - ask me how I know ) I guess I could buy a stump grinder or have someone do it, or rent a good size dozer or BH, but it's easy enough to burn them out for the few I've cut down. Just something else you'll need to decide on and deal with from time to time living in the county.
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I see a lot of old farm tractors on the market, you can tell if they were used to stump pulling. The wheel around the hub will have stress fractures in it. Pulling stumps is extremely dangerous and it destroys the equipment.
The site-work contractor who put in my driveway offered to give me a quote to clear and level out as much of my land as I wanted to pay for. His thought is to bring in dozers, excavators and explosives. My land includes some peat bog swamp. His idea is to push all the stumps into the swamp and bury them. He swears that he has done this many times in the past.
Since I moved to this state, I have watched what people try to do with their stumps. Burying may actually be the fastest and cheapest method. But I think that over the next 20-years you would have sinkholes opening everywhere.
__________________
Retired at 42 and I have been enjoying retirement for 18 years [so far].
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07-28-2018, 04:38 PM
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#27
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 953
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Also- If there is any highly erodible soil on the property, you could run afoul of the sodbuster or swambuster laws. These laws make it about impossible to farm ground within the USDA farm program. There is probably a reason that the ground was grown up in trees rather than being cropped.
__________________
Well it's all right, we're heading to the end of the line...
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07-28-2018, 04:38 PM
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#28
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,078
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Offgrid Organic Farmer
I see a lot of old farm tractors on the market, you can tell if they were used to stump pulling. The wheel around the hub will have stress fractures in it. Pulling stumps is extremely dangerous and it destroys the equipment.
The site-work contractor who put in my driveway offered to give me a quote to clear and level out as much of my land as I wanted to pay for. His thought is to bring in dozers, excavators and explosives. My land includes some peat bog swamp. His idea is to push all the stumps into the swamp and bury them. He swears that he has done this many times in the past.
Since I moved to this state, I have watched what people try to do with their stumps. Burying may actually be the fastest and cheapest method. But I think that over the next 20-years you would have sinkholes opening everywhere.
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Yes pulling stumps on a tractor is a good way to end up dead. I knew an experienced logger who pushed it too far skidding out a big walnut. RIP.
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07-28-2018, 05:46 PM
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#29
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Conroe, Texas
Posts: 18,642
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Maybe change your thought process toward dairy farming instead of logging?
__________________
*********Go Astros!*********
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Farmland with trees purchase question - brace yourself!
07-28-2018, 09:59 PM
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#30
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
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Farmland with trees purchase question - brace yourself!
Better yet, write code in an air conditioned office and live in an upscale building walking distance from work. Everything said above about the physical danger, hard work in the heat, and something that looks about like the Somme in 1918 when you are done is accurate. Don’t ask me how I know!
Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
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07-29-2018, 06:53 AM
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#31
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 9,951
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I thought the OP wanted positive passive cash flow. Not work your tail off negative cash flow. As someone who had dairy cows for 40 years, I wouldn't suggest that option to my worst enemy.
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07-29-2018, 07:19 AM
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#32
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Dallas
Posts: 1,150
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After all I have read, I learned that tree farming for timber is not profitable unless you have first hand experience on timber industry. Aside from that, ANY farming is hard work and you have to love what you do to even break even. YMMV.
I keep bees, and I tell you that the honey is not FREE and it's worth every penny you pay at the farmers market. BTW, Super market honey is not real most of the time.
PS: I have a tech desk job on a computer and my father was a farmer so I have first hand experience of both the worlds. If it is only about the money then your desk job is 1000x better than anything to do with farming. Make some more money and buy what you like without invoking money in the equation.
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07-29-2018, 08:26 AM
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#33
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kerrville,Tx
Posts: 3,361
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Given how hard it is to clear stumps today, image doing it in the 1820s No machines, perhaps a team, here is a link to a description of how it was done: https://www.sctimes.com/story/life/2...ring/23418141/
Evidently about 1800 stumps were left several years and then burned out.
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07-29-2018, 08:55 AM
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#34
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 276
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The value in forestry land is not the trees, it is the reduction in property tax (if one desires a lot of acreage in a area with fairly high land values). Someone might only pay $100 a year for 100 acres of forest land where that land would be taxed at best use value otherwise and might see $2000 to $5000 a year in property tax. You never need to harvest the trees either.
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07-29-2018, 09:07 AM
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#35
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pacific latitude 20/49
Posts: 7,677
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Offgrid Organic Farmer
I own 150 acres of woodlot. In a state that is 92% forest. Forestry is a big deal here. But the timber industry has died. Even here, when I go to buy a 2X4 it is imported from Canada. It is cheaper to import than is it to harvest locally..
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The Canadian softwood lumber industry thanks you for paying those import tariffs imposed by your government. Really!
__________________
For the fun of it...Keith
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07-29-2018, 09:13 AM
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#36
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcowan
The Canadian softwood lumber industry thanks you for paying those import tariffs imposed by your government. Really!
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Wait, wouldn't the removal of those tariffs make it even cheaper to import from Canada?
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07-29-2018, 09:13 AM
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#37
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,188
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I can only shake my head.. I come from a long line of farmers and sawmill owners. I have yet to see any "quick" money in either of those.
Btw, you also will want to get really friendly with the DNR and other govt agencies, really look at the land and see what uses the land are allowed, what potential "wet land" is claimed to be on the property, etc. I've seen farmers not be able to use huge sections of their land because at some point 100 years ago someone reported a cattail on the property so it was deemed "wetland". We lost almost 40 acres due to a beaver infestation that we were not allowed to do anything about ..so they diverted the river into our property flooding it completely... the laws eventually changed but it was too late.
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07-29-2018, 09:15 AM
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#38
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Fair Lawn
Posts: 2,938
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I don't think I saw this mentioned yet. In this day and age of environmental impact laws, OP shouldn't presume he can just sell those trees to be chopped down. One more negative factor to consider, anyway.
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07-29-2018, 09:25 AM
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#39
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,078
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meierlde
Given how hard it is to clear stumps today, image doing it in the 1820s No machines, perhaps a team, here is a link to a description of how it was done: https://www.sctimes.com/story/life/2...ring/23418141/
Evidently about 1800 stumps were left several years and then burned out.
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I was in the walnut industry after the days of digging stumps. We were after fancy grain walnut and stumps were good sources.
So we had a logging crew dig up six stumps and paid big $$$$, too much work even with the aid of modern day heavy equipment. I had a crew of two men start cleaning them of all the rock and dirt before they could be sawn. I watched these guy closely as nobody, still alive, had ever cleaned a stump for sawing. One piece of missed flint and a disaster would happen when the 7' bandsaw hit it.
I figured if it took two days to clean one stump these guys were working hard. They also had a fire hose and modern tools to aid them. While there was some fancy grain walnut in them it wasn't financially feasible to do it.
Those old time folks were tough birds.
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07-29-2018, 09:29 AM
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#40
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 14,183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haha
Better yet, write code in an air conditioned office and live in an upscale building walking distance from work. Everything said above about the physical danger, hard work in the heat, and something that looks about like the Somme in 1918 when you are done is accurate. Don’t ask me how I know!
Ha
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+1
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Have Funds, Will Retire
...not doing anything of true substance...
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