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Old 05-31-2019, 06:13 PM   #41
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I hope you are right, and it is no longer the case. It certainly was two generations ago, when I was 12 and entering high school. We were given standardized "aptitude" tests, which in my case resulted in extremely high scores in Verbal Reasoning and Mechanical Reasoning, and well-above-average score in Mathematical Reasoning. Nobody even mentioned "engineering" to me; in fact, the careers suggested for me were Secretary and Journalist. But my much older brother was encouraged to become an engineer from a young age (and he did).

I hope two generations have made enough difference.

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y most or all of the reasons have nothing to do with gender discrimination against women, at least not in 2019. For example, the vast majority of engineers are men, something like 90%, and I don't think that is the result of gender discrmination against women but rather the result of free choice....
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Old 05-31-2019, 09:39 PM   #42
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It may be worth pointing out that some traditionally female-dominated professions, such as elementary school teacher or administrative assistant, are not among the more highly compensated.

Relatively low compensation could be one reason making those professions less attractive to men than other options. It could also explain why the number of male nurses seems to be rising, since nursing tends to be better paid than the other jobs I mentioned. For a fact, I have read that male nurses are in demand nowadays, due to the need to be able to lift very overweight patients.

To be sure, one would need data on how many men versus women apply for those jobs, and the rejection rate for each sex.
DD graduated BSN just a few years ago, and the male nurses in the graduating class were still a single digit %.

My son earned his Pharm D a few years ago, much higher pay than nursing, and that class must have been 70-80% female.

Very few female garbage collectors. In general, people are drawn to things, and who is to say why?

But I do get aggravated when I hear the complaints of low representation of women on Corporate Boards or at the C-level. Many of these companies are tech companies, and the leaders came up through the ranks, many of them were engineers. So if female engineers were maybe single digits in their class 30 years ago, and yes, some dropped out to be stay-at-home-Moms (making it hard to stay competitive in a fast changing business), why should anyone be surprised that few made it to the higher ranks? And I don't think the engineering graduation rates are all that much higher today, and it will take another 20 years to see the results.

To be clear, no one should be discriminated against for any reason if they put in the time and effort and have the abilities. But the numbers say to expect a minority of females in certain areas, because of the numbers.

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Old 06-01-2019, 12:34 AM   #43
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There are lots of reasons to say why people are drawn to things, and most of them are probably cultural ("girls/guys don't do that stuff") but presumably the garbage collection thing has to do with being able to lift heavy cans over and over. It may change if more municipalities start using automated trucks.

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Very few female garbage collectors. In general, people are drawn to things, and who is to say why?



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Old 06-01-2019, 03:30 AM   #44
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There is a cute billboard on our way that has a cute smiling young woman with black grease on her face and holding a large wrench. It suggests training to be a diesel mechanic and is advertising a local trade school. Always makes me smile.
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Old 06-01-2019, 03:35 AM   #45
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There are lots of reasons to say why people are drawn to things, and most of them are probably cultural ("girls/guys don't do that stuff") but presumably the garbage collection thing has to do with being able to lift heavy cans over and over. It may change if more municipalities start using automated trucks.
I’m not sure who aspires when growing up to be a garbage collector riding on the back of a stinky garbage truck growing up, or even a construction worker for that matter. Seems like those are more “gotta have a job” type careers and are tough even for stronger men, and in construction usually the younger folks doing it until they can find something better.

Around here the garbage collector is actually a driver as the lifting is done by the truck. They rarely get out. Rarely see the driver.
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:14 AM   #46
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Where we just moved from, garbage collector has many benefits for unskilled, physically strong people. Recycling bins are emptied via a mechanical lift, but garbage bins are still collected manually.

They get all the county benefits (which are excellent). They work only until their route is done. So the faster they can complete the route, the quicker they get to go home. And man, are they fast.

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Im not sure who aspires to be a garbage collector .
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:17 AM   #47
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There are lots of reasons to say why people are drawn to things, and most of them are probably cultural ("girls/guys don't do that stuff")
I think most of them are probably inherent differences between men and women (i.e. more nature than nurture), and the culture is a byproduct.
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:21 AM   #48
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DD graduated BSN just a few years ago, and the male nurses in the graduating class were still a single digit %.

My son earned his Pharm D a few years ago, much higher pay than nursing, and that class must have been 70-80% female.
I recently attended the graduation ceremony for a college of veterinary medicine, and I would say at least 90% of the graduates were women.
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:24 AM   #49
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I think most of them are probably inherent differences between men and women (i.e. more nature than nurture), and the culture is a byproduct.
Many of us think the opposite, that culture is a much stronger force. I don't think you'll ever prove it definitively one way or the other to everyone's satisfaction. Although looking at how many more options are available to individuals nowadays as compared to decades and centuries ago is a good clue.
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:35 AM   #50
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Which inherent differences are you referring to? The only inherent differences I am aware of, other than reproductive ones, are that most men are physically stronger than most women.

Women and men are equally intelligent, so any "avoidance" by women of intellectual occupations, such as engineering, the sciences, and so on, cannot be explained by "nature."

Physical strength would not seem to be a factor in engineering, the sciences, law etc. Come to think of it, aren't there starting to be more women than men going into law? And tons of women doctors and dentists, where two generations ago it was much more unusual.

Meanwhile, the segregation - willing or not - of women into "caring" roles, and their avoidance by men, is most definitely cultural.
While there may not be that many male nurses yet, their presence is on the rise, and we as patients are certainly not the worse for it.

But we are diverging greatly from my original curiosity as to why it took until 2019 for us to have Bobbi (that was her name), rather than Bob, reseating our toilets.

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I think most of them are probably inherent differences between men and women (i.e. more nature than nurture), and the culture is a byproduct.
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:38 AM   #51
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Meanwhile, the segregation - willing or not - of women into "caring" roles, and their avoidance by men, is most definitely cultural.
Most definitely cultural? On what do you base that conclusion? I am not denying there is a cultural component, but are you denying that women are naturally more caring than men? As a man I certainly would not deny that.
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:43 AM   #52
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Which inherent differences are you referring to? The only inherent differences I am aware of, other than reproductive ones, are that most men are physically stronger than most women.

Women and men are equally intelligent, so any "avoidance" by women of intellectual occupations, such as engineering, the sciences, and so on, cannot be explained by "nature."
Yes it can. I am not suggesting that women avoid "the sciences," clearly the data shows otherwise. And I am not suggesting that women are less intelligent than men, the data shows otherwise on that issue as well. I am suggesting that women avoid engineering, and this is explained because generally speaking, men have better spatial abilities than women. This is documented by many studies.

While men and women do not differ in levels of general intelligence, gender differences do exist for more specific cognitive abilities. In particular, gender gaps in spatial ability are the largest of all gender differences in cognitive abilities.


https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._and_Educators

Metastudies show a male advantage in mental rotation and assessing horizontality and verticality and a female advantage in spatial memory. A proposed hypothesis is that men and women evolved different mental abilities to adapt to their different roles in society. This explanation suggests that men may have evolved greater spatial abilities as a result of certain behaviors, such as navigating during a hunt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_di...patial_ability
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:50 AM   #53
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Meanwhile, the segregation - willing or not - of women into "caring" roles, and their avoidance by men, is most definitely cultural.
While there may not be that many male nurses yet, their presence is on the rise, and we as patients are certainly not the worse for it.
Men don't have babies suckle at their breasts. The nurturing and caring bond created is something us men cannot understand. Instead, we go out hunting.

Back to the general topic... specifically garbage collection. Since most is automated, it is really turning into a commercial truck driving job. There are quite a few women in truck driving, but still a huge minority. Many of the women are in team with their husband on long haul routes.

My niece's husband is a truck driver. He kind of suggested that lifestyle possibility to my niece. Problem is, my niece never got beyond driving a stick shift. She couldn't (or rather didn't want to) do it. So, the truck driving thing won't happen -- until truck drivers become managers of the automated driving machines.
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:58 AM   #54
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We may see self-driving trucks before that long...makes the whole argument moot!

I understand that many men, and not a few women, are very devoted to the whole "women are caring dears, men are hunting brutes" thing. That is cultural, too, and serves various cultural ends.

We are so close to these things, that it is often impossible to pull away and see how artificial they really are.

Personally, even having given birth and nursed and loved a baby, I would pull all my hair out in chunks rather than do a job that involves physically caring for strangers, including children.

[QUOTE=JoeWras;2244884.[/QUOTE]
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Old 06-01-2019, 06:04 AM   #55
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I understand that many men, and not a few women, are very devoted to the whole "women are caring dears, men are hunting brutes" thing. That is cultural, too, and serves various cultural ends.

We are so close to these things, that it is often impossible to pull away and see how artificial they really are.
And likewise many women, and not a few men, are in denial about the fact that there are gender differences between men and women that are the result of nature and how we have evolved for hundreds of thousands or millions of years.

Why is it so hard to believe that women are naturally better caregivers than men, and men have better spatial cognitive abilities than women? And that these differences are the natural result of how men and women have evolved? Doesn't it make sense that our culture has also evolved to reflect those differences? Some people seem to have an agenda to deny that there are any inherent differences between men and women and I just don't get that.
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Old 06-01-2019, 06:10 AM   #56
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Personally, even having given birth and nursed and loved a baby, I would pull all my hair out in chunks rather than do a job that involves physically caring for strangers, including children.
Ha ha! I recently ran into my old "career test" we took in high school. I literally scored 0 on the nursing portion.

However, there are men I know who really do feel a calling to care for people up close. They run into a lot of cultural barriers, most especially from other men/boys who nag them to death for it.

And don't trivialize what some have said above. A new barrier for men working in close contact fields is now in place. They are a sentence away from losing their job and possible freedom if someone decides to call them out for a non-existent issue.
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Old 06-01-2019, 07:30 AM   #57
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The sticky wicket is that little thing about male-dominated professions being - generally, with exceptions - better paid than female-dominated ones.

And little Amethyst, with wow scores in mechanical reasoning and really good math scores, being told that "secretary" is a good career path for her. While older brother, who freely admitted his little sister scored higher on practically every standardized test than he did, was encouraged to go into engineering.

And overhearing a male colleague, in the 1990's, whining that "women are stealing all the promotions now."

And Bobbi the plumber, who wisely abandoned medical coding (female dominated) for plumbing (male dominated), because it pays well and she's good at it, and in 2019, a plumbing company is happy to hire her.

That's why.

Scary, I know.


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And likewise many women, and not a few men, are in denial about the fact that there are gender differences between men and women that are the result of nature and how we have evolved for hundreds of thousands or millions of years.

Why is it so hard to believe that women are naturally better caregivers than men, and men have better spatial cognitive abilities than women? And that these differences are the natural result of how men and women have evolved? Doesn't it make sense that our culture has also evolved to reflect those differences? Some people seem to have an agenda to deny that there are any inherent differences between men and women and I just don't get that.
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Old 06-01-2019, 07:47 AM   #58
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I hope you are right, and it is no longer the case. It certainly was two generations ago, when I was 12 and entering high school. We were given standardized "aptitude" tests, which in my case resulted in extremely high scores in Verbal Reasoning and Mechanical Reasoning, and well-above-average score in Mathematical Reasoning. Nobody even mentioned "engineering" to me; in fact, the careers suggested for me were Secretary and Journalist.
I had similar results in the late 1960s (graduated HS in 1971) and I'm happy to say the reaction was quite different. Dad, an engineer, looked at my Mechanical Reasoning score and said, "I don't think *I* could score that high". We were given scores indicating how our interests and skills fit with various professions, neatly divided into "Male" and "Female". My lowest score was "Catholic teaching sister". No surprise there. The highest were engineering-type things. The guidance counselor, an enlightened man, encouraged me to think in terms of professions not traditionally female. He once said he hated seeing an intelligent woman turned into "a baby machine"- radical stuff for a Roman Catholic HS.

I majored in Math in college, found that I loved computer coding and took a lot of classes in Physics and computer science. Great stuff. It got me into the actuarial field and I had a wonderful career.

I really do believe that, ON AVERAGE, males and females gravitate to different things- but you need to encourage all interest in all kids- some will be outliers and that's great, too.
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Old 06-01-2019, 09:11 AM   #59
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As in many areas, we tend to have a binary, on-off, left-right, yes-no view, when, in actuality, gender-based personality characteristics are a continuum, black and white, yes, but with many shades of gray in between.
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Old 06-01-2019, 10:15 AM   #60
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Yes it can. I am not suggesting that women avoid "the sciences," clearly the data shows otherwise. And I am not suggesting that women are less intelligent than men, the data shows otherwise on that issue as well. I am suggesting that women avoid engineering, and this is explained because generally speaking, men have better spatial abilities than women. This is documented by many studies.

While men and women do not differ in levels of general intelligence, gender differences do exist for more specific cognitive abilities. In particular, gender gaps in spatial ability are the largest of all gender differences in cognitive abilities.


https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._and_Educators

Metastudies show a male advantage in mental rotation and assessing horizontality and verticality and a female advantage in spatial memory. A proposed hypothesis is that men and women evolved different mental abilities to adapt to their different roles in society. This explanation suggests that men may have evolved greater spatial abilities as a result of certain behaviors, such as navigating during a hunt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_di...patial_ability
Well, I’m glad I didn’t listen to you about not going into engineering. Did very well in my classes. Did well in my career. Designed many things. Got lucky and retired early because I joined a small company and was able to make serious contributions. Engineering fit me like a glove.

I did have an aptitude test in summer science camp in high school and it suggested that engineering was a top option for me. Made me go look at it since I came from a non-STEM family and didn’t know much.

So some people sit around and discuss whether engineering is not a good career choice for women and maybe they should be discouraged due to their average lack or weakness in certain cognitive skills. Meanwhile I had a great career.

Differences in individuals can far outweigh differences in populations as a whole, so I’m glad we don’t force all individuals of a certain gender to only take certain paths.
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