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Old 06-01-2019, 10:20 AM   #61
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The sticky wicket is that little thing about male-dominated professions being - generally, with exceptions - better paid than female-dominated ones.
Male dominated jobs are also more dangerous. I think it's 90% of all workplace deaths are men and often the wage takes the danger into account. Imagine the outrage today if 90% of workplace deaths were female?

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And little Amethyst, with wow scores in mechanical reasoning and really good math scores, being told that "secretary" is a good career path for her. While older brother, who freely admitted his little sister scored higher on practically every standardized test than he did, was encouraged to go into engineering.
That was how many decades ago? Imagine the backlash a man wanting to be a secretary, nurse, or a day care provider faced back then.
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Old 06-01-2019, 10:30 AM   #62
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Male dominated jobs are also more dangerous. I think it's 90% of all workplace deaths are men and often the wage takes the danger into account. Imagine the outrage today if 90% of workplace deaths were female?
Could be men suffer more workplace death because they make more poor decisions. I’d really like to see hard data before reaching any conclusion.
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Old 06-01-2019, 10:41 AM   #63
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Could be men suffer more workplace death because they make more poor decisions. I’d really like to see hard data before reaching any conclusion.
While I look that up, "hold my beer."*












* - for our non-USA friends, "Hold my beer" is a common joke about men, yes men, who are about to do something really stupid, like pick up the jammed and lit firework.
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Old 06-01-2019, 11:06 AM   #64
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Could be men suffer more workplace death because they make more poor decisions. I’d really like to see hard data before reaching any conclusion.
The hard data on male workplace deaths is readily available and can be found in 20 seconds if you so choose.

The hard data on "poor decision making" is lacking though, and I'd rather see it before reach any conclusion...
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Old 06-01-2019, 11:07 AM   #65
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Could be men suffer more workplace death because they make more poor decisions. I’d really like to see hard data before reaching any conclusion.
I don't have time now, but if you look it up at the BLS site, you'll find it.

There's lots of ways to interpret the data - I tend to think it shows that women are smarter than men, and/or have their priorities straight by not taking dangerous jobs. Money isn't that important.

Part of the point I was trying to make about garbage collectors, is that I hear some "social commentators" carry on about under-representation of females in certain areas, but they seem to have no problem with women being under-represented in jobs that aren't held in high esteem and/or are dangerous. Seems they want to have their cake and eat it too?

It all gets very silly, IMO. So women are equal to men in all ways, but then why don't we just have women compete with men in track events, weight lifting, tennis, etc? Very, very, very few of the best women could compete with the best men in those fields. So why do we say they need to be equal in some areas but not others?

Again, no one should be discriminated against in any way. And women (and men) should be encouraged to try things outside the societal norms, they may find that they are good at it. But it is silly, IMO, to try to force things too far.

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Old 06-01-2019, 11:10 AM   #66
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Quick addition to the topic - I recently heard about a debate with one of those "social commentators", and the other person said "Women are under represented in prisons, what should we do about that?".

Crickets.

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Old 06-01-2019, 11:17 AM   #67
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WADR, “Social commentators” is a straw man. No one here is making those arguments.
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Old 06-01-2019, 11:23 AM   #68
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... about under-representation of females in certain areas, but they seem to have no problem with women being under-represented in jobs that aren't held in high esteem and/or are dangerous.
Back to the hospital. I remember it seemed that every nurse was female, and all the cleaning staff were male.

It seems like progress on both fronts. More male nurses, and more female cleaning staff.
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Old 06-01-2019, 11:39 AM   #69
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Could be men suffer more workplace death because they make more poor decisions. I’d really like to see hard data before reaching any conclusion.
Some of the jobs with the highest death and serious injury rates: logging, commercial fishing, roofing, mining. Very male-dominated but I doubt they'd be any safer for women.
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Old 06-01-2019, 12:33 PM   #70
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I'm really enjoying this discussion, but am so afraid of Porky coming along that I have been afraid to look all day...
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Old 06-01-2019, 12:59 PM   #71
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Part of the point I was trying to make about garbage collectors, is that I hear some "social commentators" carry on about under-representation of females in certain areas, but they seem to have no problem with women being under-represented in jobs that aren't held in high esteem and/or are dangerous. Seems they want to have their cake and eat it too?
I agree.
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Old 06-01-2019, 01:28 PM   #72
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WADR, “Social commentators” is a straw man. No one here is making those arguments.
It was just on observation about some of the commentary that is heard quite a lot today. Not sure what makes that a straw man in this context. It was only meant to show that I do think this equality business can go to the absurd.

Equal opportunity - yes, always. Equal results, well, I don't think life is like that. No one should stop me from trying to become an NBA star, but I assure you you, no one would want to see me on an NBA team, unless it was for a laugh, but that would get old quick. Should old white guys demand equal representation on the NBA court? It gets absurd.

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Old 06-01-2019, 01:40 PM   #73
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Getting back to plumbing... I just recalled that a few years ago I went to the local big-box place for a part for my well tank. I never worked on it before, so didn't know exactly what I needed, but thought I'd figure it out once I looked around at what was available.

I never expect the big-box employees to know much/anything in their department, but sometimes they know a bit, sometimes they are actually very knowledgeable, it's hit-or-miss. Anyhow, as I'm looking a middle-aged worker asks if she can help. I honestly don't recall if I considered her gender and thought about whether she would know anything or not, probably just went on my general idea to not expect them to know much. Turns out she was quite knowledgeable, prevented me from getting the wrong part, and explained why.

So they are out there.

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Old 06-01-2019, 01:47 PM   #74
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“Social commentators” say all kinds of crazy stuff. We criticize them regularly here, but then when convenient, use them to make a point.

No one here is making any any argument about unfair gender representation in specific areas of the workforce or extreme measures to change imbalances. So why bring in what “social commentators” say, when it only changes the focus of the thread?
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Old 06-01-2019, 01:50 PM   #75
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“Social commentators” say all kinds of crazy stuff. We criticize them regularly here, but then when convenient, use them to make a point.

No one here is making any any argument about unfair gender representation in specific areas of the workforce or extreme measures to change imbalances. So why bring in what “social commentators” say, when it only changes the focus of the thread?
Just making conversation, seemed related to the main theme to me. I didn't realize (and didn't intend to) I was pushing anyone's buttons (was I?).

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Old 06-01-2019, 02:45 PM   #76
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When all this “Me Too” stuff started, an amazing thing happened. Some of my younger female FB friends, younger as in university students w*rking on MS or PhD (at my j*b for 7-1/2 years), began posting accounts of the various forms of harassment, creepy behavior, and attempted/actual date rape, perpetuated upon them almost daily by colleagues, cow-orkers, mentors, professors, and random strangers. They weren’t outing anyone, or trying to get anyone fired or arrested...
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Old 06-01-2019, 03:30 PM   #77
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Regarding nature or nurture on the caring traits of men versus woman, all I know is that I’ve always been more comfortable with a female doctor. I’m not sure if it’s a caring gene as much as it is a listening gene. Given a choice I’ve chosen a female doctor since I’ve been an adult. I’ve been referred to a few male doctors as certain health issues have arose, and it only confirmed my belief. Sorry, I think women are better caregivers. I have no doubt they can do anything but I’m sure they give care well and I think it is part of their dna.

One area I do wish the gender gap would close is in teaching. Maybe not the lowest grades, but I remember getting my first male teacher in fifth grade and it was one of those things that changed my life.
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Old 06-01-2019, 04:10 PM   #78
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We young women would talk about amongst ourselves about the daily harassments, but quietly, since nobody wanted to be accused of "bringing it on yourself." We knew who to avoid or never be alone in a room with, but we also didn't dare "out" such people in any meaningful way.

I sensed a modest change at work by the mid-to-late 1980's. There was no exercise facility where I worked, so during warm weather I would change into shorts and take a walk around the campus at lunchtime. There was some construction going on, and I got sick of the construction workers cat-calling and making kissy-kissy noises when I walked by, so I complained to facilities management. My complaint was taken seriously, and I never heard another dang peep out of those construction workers. I was not going to be treated as their personal entertainment.

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When all this “Me Too” stuff started, an amazing thing happened. Some of my younger female FB friends, younger as in university students w*rking on MS or PhD (at my j*b for 7-1/2 years), began posting accounts of the various forms of harassment, creepy behavior, and attempted/actual date rape, perpetuated upon them almost daily by colleagues, cow-orkers, mentors, professors, and random strangers. They weren’t outing anyone, or trying to get anyone fired or arrested...
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Old 06-01-2019, 04:12 PM   #79
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The feminine version would be "blonde jokes." Just for fairness, there was also a pretty good joke going around about a blond guy who did dumb things.


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While I look that up, "hold my beer."*












* - for our non-USA friends, "Hold my beer" is a common joke about men, yes men, who are about to do something really stupid, like pick up the jammed and lit firework.
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Old 06-01-2019, 04:35 PM   #80
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* - for our non-USA friends, "Hold my beer" is a common joke about men, yes men, who are about to do something really stupid, like pick up the jammed and lit firework.
Hey, hey, hey. That’s not true at all. It means that the man is going to do something truly awesome that will impress the entire gathering (best if it’s a large crowd but not required) and he knows that spilling ones beer in the process is not only illegal but would also take away from the awesomeness of what’s about to occur. Hence, “hold my beer”.

And, yes, it will likely result in injury, but that’s just the cost of greatness.
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