Female Submarine Sailors

2soon2tell

Recycles dryer sheets
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Nords & Gumby

I've read that the Navy is starting a pilot program to allow females to serve on subs. The article stated that they would start on boomers since there is more room for separate accommodations.

IMHO this is long overdue but some say it will not work very well. Your opinions please.
 
Nords & Gumby

I've read that the Navy is starting a pilot program to allow females to serve on subs. The article stated that they would start on boomers since there is more room for separate accommodations.

IMHO this is long overdue but some say it will not work very well. Your opinions please.

This ties in nicely with Nords joke about "Onan Generators" in NW-Bound's RV thread.

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f27/no-longer-an-rver-wannabe-49062-2.html#post911872.

:D
 
http://www.early-retirement.org/for...allow-women-to-serve-on-submarines-46492.html

Academy Women to Become 1st Submariners

Best move for the submarine force since Truman integrated the armed forces.

The OHIO class were designed for mixed-gender crews from the keel up, and the rest of the Navy has pretty well ironed out the women-at-sea issues. During my active-duty days I got so tired of hearing (submarine) flag officers soberly warn about this.

Our kid is tempted ("Hey, why do the Academy women get to go first?!?") but if she joined the submarine force then she'd never get her dream of transferring to the Civil Engineering Corps.

Personally I'm really glad that I never had to compete with my spouse for promotion...
 
I really am suprised it took this long for this topic to be discussed on this forum.
 
I am a big fan of women in uniform............:)

However, it will forever change discussion about when and where "submarine races" are held..........
 
I've read that the Navy is starting a pilot program to allow females to serve on subs. The article stated that they would start on boomers since there is more room for separate accommodations.
So do they figure the boomers are too old to get pregnant so no harm, no foul?
 
I really am suprised it took this long for this topic to be discussed on this forum.
... and I'm surprised that it stayed professional for as long as it did.

So back on topic for a second-- what's your advice to the troops? I bet you'd have no trouble getting snapped up for Supply Corps or nuclear-power school. If you went nuke then I'd be happy to send you one of my sets of gold dolphins. Have any of your women officers/enlisted volunteered for some of that righteous sub pay yet?

I guess I should ask if this news has inspired any of your men officers/enlisted to volunteer for the submarine force as well...

By the way, here's the desktop on my daughter's laptop:
 

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There is so much of this thread that as gone over my head... most of it, I think.
 
I wonder where they will find enough young women dumb enough to want to do it? Young men are notoriously stupid (well, I was), but I would think women would have more sense than to lock themselves underwater in a smelly steel tube for months at a time.

Seriously, I see no reason why women should not serve on submarines. It's not like it requires brute strength. I think starting with women junior officers is probably the best way to go. Junior enlisted women would probably face more harassment from the troglodytes, but officers have some built in protection from mistreatment.

In the submarine force, it's all about competence. Your very survival, as well as the survival of everyone else on board, depends on each and every crew member doing their job properly. If the troops see that you are competent, they treat you with respect. If they see you as incompetent, they don't -- and being an officer won't save you if you don't know your stuff.

I expect that mixed crews will face some problems early on. The toughest, I think, is the love triangle situation. Once you break up, you will continue to live in very close proximity for an extended period of time. I can see hard feelings between shipmates developing as a consequence. An important part of being able to live in such horrible conditions, piled one atop the other, is being easy to get along with. Human emotions that can be allowed full flower in other situations may prove dangerous in that environment.

That said, I am certain that the young sailors, male and female, who are serving today are far more mature and professional than I ever was. I'm sure that they will do just fine.
 
I think there are studies that show coed dorms, where even roommates can be coed, have less extracurricular physical actitivities among the residents. Probably would become true of submarine dwellers, also.

But regardless, women should be "allowed" to serve anywhere men are "allowed" to serve.
 
I think there are studies that show coed dorms, where even roommates can be coed, have less extracurricular physical actitivities among the residents. Probably would become true of submarine dwellers, also.

That makes sense. There's probably a ton of gay relationships going on right now on the all-male submarines, but as soon as they bring in the girls all of that nonsense will stop!
 
I think there are studies that show coed dorms, where even roommates can be coed, have less extracurricular physical actitivities among the residents. Probably would become true of submarine dwellers, also. .

It's not really about the physical contact, but rather the emotional bonds. And, frankly, I expect the young lads to be more of a problem in that respect than the young lasses.
 
Seriously, I see no reason why women should not serve on submarines.
I had to listen to this "We just can't" crap all the time on SUBPAC staff in 1992-94, and frequently it was the admirals talking. So in "support" of their endeavors (and with apologies to David Letterman) we came up "The Top Ten Reasons That Women Can't Serve on Submarines". Keep in mind that these are actual quotes from various senior officers in briefs and at informal meetings, presumably sober during at least one of them.

10. "Women's ova are adversely and permanently affected by radiation while men's sperm recovers after a certain amount of time." Maybe this was true in the SKATE and PERMIT class days, but women have been on aircraft carriers and nuclear prototypes for decades without problems. Besides, what about that 1990s study that decided radiation was 3x more hazardous than previously promulgated? We didn't change the way we did business then, either, did we? There's a lot of debate among the men whether everyone's sperm really recovers... or if it was that way to begin with.
9. "Ectopic pregnancies only offer a four-hour MEDEVAC window before their lives are threatened." This was on the morning after I'd been up for 36 hours arranging a helicopter MEDEVAC in the Sea of Japan for a sailor whose appendix had gone from "ouch" to "ruptured" within three hours. Corpsmen are technically qualified to operate in either situation but no one, least of all the corpsman, wants the proficiency.
8. "Submarine berthing is not designed for women." OHIO-class submarines have nine-rack berthing compartments with their own doors. The other answer was "Hey, it's not designed for men, either, but we still have to sleep there!"
7. "Submarine sanitary systems aren't equipped to handle women crew." I'm not sure whose answer to this was more unprintable-- the engineer's or the women's.
6. "We can't require the women to stand watch if they're affected by PMS." Yeah, and we don't require the men to stand watch either if they're affected by venereal disease, but one of the genders had a choice in the matter...
5. "Perfume is an atmosphere contaminant." Yeah, so is tobacco smoke, but we figured out how to handle that too. He said it with a straight face, but he retired after that tour.
4. "Sex at sea." And how will that be changed by having women on board? From the male submariners: "Hey, what about 'Don't ask, don't tell'?"
3. "Submarine passageways aren't designed for both men and women, and bodily contact will be the inevitable result." Apparently this spokesperson had never been on a Navy aircraft. Once again the male submariners said "Hey, they're not designed for men, either, but we still have to use them!"
2. "There's not enough berthing." Uhm, admiral, the LOS ANGELES-class submarines have always been about 20 spaces short on berthing, too, but we make the guys hot-rack anyway.

And the top reason that women couldn't serve aboard submarines?

1. "The Wive's Clubs will never support it"! Today those organizations are known as "Family Readiness Groups", so it won't be a problem...
 
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Recall the the early days of female scientist aboard research vessels. Many adjustments had to be made. Cabins, language cleanup example. The major one was the "educational" movies were banned by the captain. Shortly thereafter smoking below decks was banned.

I'm glad that modern sailors are more enlightened[-] appreciate the opportunities[/-] of pheromones presented by working in such close quarters. I can't say that it was so in my time in the service.
 
My goodness, she cursed in the military?
According to 29 of the 36 crew members who were questioned for the Navy's report, Graf repeatedly dropped F bombs on them. "Take your goddam attitude and shove it up your f______ ass and leave it there,"
I guess it's how you say it rather than how you mean it, because I met many a Staff NCO in the Marine Corps who could drop half a dozen f-bombs in a sentence while asking you to come over and meet his little sister, 'cause you're just that great a guy. Or maybe it's a service-centric thing? I got paid a sincere compliment by a Gunnery Sergeant once in which he dropped 12 f-bombs. It made me snicker a little because I had to admit I had never heard the term "Bugf*%k" before. "Hell Lance Corporal, this is the Marine Corps, if you don't say f*$k every other word nobody will understand you."

So, what's up with the Navy? Google "Navy Commander Relieved" and Holly Graf just seems to be the most recent of quite a few in the past two-three years. Some of the incidents would make one think that such serious character flaws would have come to light, and dealt with, much earlier. Similar searches involving other services return a few, but nothing like the navy. There seems to be some clustering going on here. Does the Navy just kill their young in a more public way or is there something systemic here?

Another interesting article about Captain Graf here: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1970226,00.html

After more than a month on Graf's ship, Kaprow left for the carrier U.S.S. Theodore Roosevelt to tell Graf's superior what he had witnessed. He was the second senior officer from the ship to complain to superiors about Graf. "I told all of this to the commodore," Kaprow said, "but I don't know what happened to it from there." Back on the Churchill, officers who knew that Kaprow was meeting with the commodore waited anxiously for a change in the Churchill's command climate. It never came..."Certain people in the Navy are preselected for command, and no matter what happens, the Navy will make sure that it happens," he said.
 
My goodness, she cursed in the military?
So, what's up with the Navy? Google "Navy Commander Relieved" and Holly Graf just seems to be the most recent of quite a few in the past two-three years. Some of the incidents would make one think that such serious character flaws would have come to light, and dealt with, much earlier. Similar searches involving other services return a few, but nothing like the navy. There seems to be some clustering going on here. Does the Navy just kill their young in a more public way or is there something systemic here?
Apparently no one worries about officer abuse, but you know she shouldn't have messed with the Master Chief.

CO reliefs aren't that unusual, but this one is. The surface warfare community does have a reputation for eating their young (junior officers) and for shotgun blasts to the face, so a CO being relieved for that reason is even more surprising. Here's some opinions I posted at another board:
What's unusual is that she wasn't relieved for running aground or for a DUI or for inappropriate sexual behavior or for being incompetent or for otherwise scaring the heck out of her bosses. Those "relieved for cause" incidents happen two or three times a year, particularly in Seventh Fleet where ships are worked to their limits (and beyond). It happens to all kinds of COs-- men and women. Oh, the stories.

No, Holly's offense was... being a screamer.

Screamers aren't that uncommon in the Navy, and even 10 years ago there would have been an wardroom uproar over getting relieved just for yelling at people. That's not assault, it's swearing like a sailor direct & forceful goal-oriented leadership! She would've been admired for her guts, to say nothing of her verbal creativity, and groomed for flag rank. Nobody used to do anything about it-- they tolerated it or worked around it, and the casualties were considered just part of the cost of culling the herd weeding out the weak doing business. "Challenged to perform" or "personality conflicts" or "just couldn't hack the pressure" were blamed on the afflicted, not the inflicter. I owe my 1989 Hawaii transfer to being the only [-]sucker[/-] officer left in the pipeline who could, let alone who was willing, take over for yet another department head. He'd started coughing blood after a few months on the job because his screamer CO was getting on his nerves.

From the scuttlebutt I'm reading these days on no-holds-barred Navy discussion boards like SailorBob.com, it's even more encouraging to note that hardly anyone even cares she's a woman. Sure, this engenders (so to speak) commentary on whether the traditional designation of "@sshole" is also deemed appropriate for a woman in command, or if the word "b!tch" could be considered strong enough misogynist. But that's just a minor semantic distraction, and there aren't even any jokes about emotional hysteria or hormones. What also encourages me is that officers (and the enlisted ranks) are being very clear that this is not about male or female-- this is about behavior. After more than 35 years, the Navy is finally accustomed to women at sea and in command. It's about time.

No, what's impressing me is that the Inspector General staff was actually told to get their butts on a plane and fly all the way out there to do an investigation. This wasn't just a squadron commodore or a battlegroup admiral or even a C7F flag officer pulling her aside and saying "Um, hey, you've made your reputation, the flag selection board is impressed, now just tone it down a little, couldya?" This wasn't typical flag backstabbing or O-6 resentment at yet another cruiser CO being one of the chosen. This wasn't a boss saying "I don't have the guts or the support to fire one of my own COs, could you send the IG over here to do my job for me lend a hand?" It wasn't even her crew sabotaging her by letting her fall on her sword when they could have stepped in to keep the ship out of trouble. That's a very common factor in collisions & groundings.

This is about junior officers (and a few midgrade officers) and hundreds of enlisted telling their assignment officers why they won't go to that ship and why they won't stay there. This is about dozens of them voting with their feet. It's about a new generation saying that this "traditional" hard-charging Navy behavior is no more appropriate today than public drinking & whoring used to be appropriate in my day or drugs in the '60s-'70s or shipboard inebriation even earlier in this century. This is about deckplate leadership setting a higher performance standard than their alleged leaders, and saying that their generation is not going to behave that way or accept the behavior of those appointed over them.

I bet Graf's entire supervisory chain of command were a little shocked to get the IG phone call and to eventually understand that this was a "big deal". And they realized that they couldn't intervene or protect her, so they stepped smartly back to leave her swingin' in the wind. Heck, one or two of them were probably afraid that they were going to be relieved for contributing to (let alone tolerating) the problem. I bet they're still a little surprised to be told that they shouldn't have let it get to this point. I'd love to read some of the fitness reports that are being written on the squadron, battelgroup, and fleet staffs around this issue. I'd pay serious money to get the bootleg recordings from the annual all-flag-officer conference.

Five years from now this could easily be one of the ships that our daughter's assigned to. It looks like it's finally getting safe to go to sea!
Another poster mentioned that none of Graf's officer siblings seem to have stepped in to help, either.
 
While in the service, never minded the the expletive laden guidance and direction form those further up the food chain, so long as we were confident that they had our backs when $hit hit thee fan.

If it was discovered that their bluster was for self aggrandizement and stepping on team members bodies to look good and get ahead, things got sorted out real quick.

In civil empl*yment I did not tolerate berating by any boss at any time. The few times it happened, they ended up apologizing profusely after enlightening them of the errors of their ways. If their life is not on the line along with mine, they better be polite.
 
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