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Old 02-05-2018, 11:27 AM   #21
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A classic consumer dodge is blaming the company for the consumer's own unwillingness to do be conscientious and read and understand what exactly they are buying.
And a classic merchant dodge is to present the consumer with a written agreement that would take 8 hours to read, and 15 lawyers to understand, and even then their understanding would only amount to creditable "arguments" should the deal go sour. Yet, if one wants to live in this world with things like computers, air travel, and cell phones, to name a few, one must sign such agreements and recognize that when push comes to shove, they are probably screwed, and just chalk it up to the cost of doing business.

As far as airlines are concerned, as others have intoned, I just grin and bear it, and assume I'm going to be inconvenienced at some point, but it beats walking.
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Old 02-05-2018, 11:48 AM   #22
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Yet, if one wants to live in this world with things like computers, air travel, and cell phones, to name a few, one must sign such agreements
This is the salient party of your post.

None of the companies were talking about pay substantially better dividends or realize substantially better stock price gains than other companies. None of them offer a "beyond the norm" investment value for the owners. The terms and conditions to which you refer keep the expenses predictable and within the bounds such that the current price point that consumers demand yields the normal, standard, run of the mill return on investment which investors expect. Railing against the provisions of such agreements without at the same time demonstrating that the consumer wants to pay a lot more for such provisions to not exist is irrational consumer behavior.
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Old 02-05-2018, 11:52 AM   #23
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As far as airlines are concerned, as others have intoned, I just grin and bear it, and assume I'm going to be inconvenienced at some point, but it beats walking.
I agree- I've heard some people say they refuse to fly and, although I do more road trips now that I've ER'd and it's due mostly to the hassle of flying, there are few practical alternatives when I want to get to India or Iceland.
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Old 02-05-2018, 12:29 PM   #24
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This is the salient party of your post.

None of the companies were talking about pay substantially better dividends or realize substantially better stock price gains than other companies. None of them offer a "beyond the norm" investment value for the owners. The terms and conditions to which you refer keep the expenses predictable and within the bounds such that the current price point that consumers demand yields the normal, standard, run of the mill return on investment which investors expect. Railing against the provisions of such agreements without at the same time demonstrating that the consumer wants to pay a lot more for such provisions to not exist is irrational consumer behavior.
I think my entire post is salient. You cast some blame on the part of the consumer for not understanding the terms of the agreement. My most salient point is that they are beyond understanding. They are crammed down the consumer's throat as a requirement for doing business. Whether or not that is necessary to provide the service is another point altogether.
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Old 02-05-2018, 12:53 PM   #25
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And a classic merchant dodge is to present the consumer with a written agreement that would take 8 hours to read, and 15 lawyers to understand, and even then their understanding would only amount to creditable "arguments" should the deal go sour. Yet, if one wants to live in this world with things like computers, air travel, and cell phones, to name a few, one must sign such agreements and recognize that when push comes to shove, they are probably screwed, and just chalk it up to the cost of doing business.

As far as airlines are concerned, as others have intoned, I just grin and bear it, and assume I'm going to be inconvenienced at some point, but it beats walking.
I think that the "8 hrs to read, and 15 lawyers to understand" has less to do about the companies intension to obfuscate, but more the result of legislation and various consumer lawsuits.

As to this being a way to earn more profit than others in the business, my belief is it has more to do with staying competitive in a highly legislated business. United does not stand alone in "fine print". Every airline that I have been on, has similarly complicated "terms of agreement". At least United doesn't charge by the minute to talk to a live person when trying to resolve problems. However, they do charge for having a live person book a flight for you.

IMO, John Q. Public shops for the cheapest airfare, ignores the details of the purchase, and purchases based on that lowest price. Then, if things go a bit astray, expects the airlines to provide 1st class customer service. The tickets JQP purchased are not priced for 1st class service.
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Old 02-05-2018, 01:26 PM   #26
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Last time we went to Maine, we flew into Manchester, NH. It is only 50 mi. North of the Boston Airport--minus the big rush hour.

I avoid those big city airports whenever there are options.
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Old 02-05-2018, 04:00 PM   #27
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My most salient point is that they are beyond understanding.
I suspect just about everyone in this thread is capable of understanding if they are so inclined. The problem is generally lack of will, lack of discipline and lack of accountability for their own satisfaction, on the part of the consumer.

Note that when these matters come up for discussion somebody points out the portion of the terms and conditions that pertains to the situation. They would be unable to do so if what you had said was accurate.

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IMO, John Q. Public shops for the cheapest airfare, ignores the details of the purchase, and purchases based on that lowest price. Then, if things go a bit astray, expects the airlines to provide 1st class customer service.
Precisely. It's often simply lack of accountability on the part of the consumer combined with a craven inclination toward blaming others instead of admitting one's own responsibility.
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Old 02-05-2018, 04:05 PM   #28
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Let's disagree without being disagreeable, please?
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Old 02-07-2018, 04:26 AM   #29
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I was meaning to check back in. Initial responses on this forum encouraged me to go back to United directly. It's the old language problem of service reps, now with two companies. (Grrrr...) It is a two hour window for the change in flight time, not two hours to respond to the change in flight.

The change was 15 minutes shy of that but for some unknown reason, the rep gave me a break and approved a cancel and refunded all my money to my credit card. I got a flight on another airline in the time window i wanted.

If you use the same airline for both legs of the trip, I will book with that airline in future. But if I choose to use multiple airlines, plus rent a car and hotel, there are some savings to be had from Expedia. What say the forum.. yes or no?
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Old 02-07-2018, 04:34 AM   #30
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The change was 15 minutes shy of that but for some unknown reason, the rep gave me a break and approved a cancel and refunded all my money to my credit card.
Sometimes it costs less to bend the rules than to enforce them. The customer for whom you're bending the rules (should) perceive it as the gift it is, which is the best advertising you could ever direct toward that customer. This is one reason why people say, "You catch my flies with honey than with vinegar." If the customer sounds like they're dead-set against ever doing business with you again, there's no much sense in offering them a gift as incentive to do so.

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If you use the same airline for both legs of the trip, I will book with that airline in future. But if I choose to use multiple airlines, plus rent a car and hotel, there are some savings to be had from Expedia. What say the forum.. yes or no?
No. Savings from Expedia far too often "come with a price" and generally one that is not evident until that price manifests. Sure, some large percentage of the time you'll never get to that point, but when you do and the price bites you, you end up regretting ever doing business with Expedia (Orbitz, Priceline, Booking, etc.)
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Old 02-07-2018, 04:40 AM   #31
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As a new retiree, I haven't done much travel (beyond day trips). So what resources are you using to search out your airline(s), car agency and hotel, not using these sites?
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Old 02-07-2018, 04:47 AM   #32
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There's a difference between "using these sites" and making purchases from those sites. I'll always use these sites as comparison, and then figure out what's getting in the way of getting that fare directly from the airline. (Generally, the difference ends up surfacing that potential "bite" I referred to.)

Having said that, I have found the best source for researching flights to be ita Software (by Google) Matrix Airfare Search. You cannot purchase airfare that way - it's just a research tool - and it requires a little learning to use particularly well, but it is well worth the investment. It really affords you a rich source of insights into the options available.

For a simpler research tool, I like Google Flights. Again, my intent is to find what I want to purchase, and then purchase it directly from the airline at that fare (or lower).

For hotels, I like to get direct input from previous guests. I get that from comments on the hotels' Facebook pages and from Trip Advisor, the latter of which is where I generally start my search (again, without booking through them - going to the hotel's own booking engine to get the same rate, or better).

As I have gotten older, I'm pulling back from renting a car more and more often, except when driving is the point of the trip (something which actually hasn't happened yet - we do road trips starting from home, not after flying to some other city). Otherwise, I prefer car services. I'm on vacation; let someone else struggle their way through the traffic.
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